WesWorld

There will be only two that I know of.

The first is a "special", since the Iberians have not laid down a destroyer for a few years now.

The main battery is located in A, B(s) and X(s), with the two 57mm mountings staggered amidships in about the Q location.

A new Squid-like ahead-throwing ASW weapon is being trialled. I've allocated 30 t for it, pending further information, but there is enough miscellaneous weight to support a larger mount weight. The reasons for Iberia adopting such are:

1) No shortage of submarine action in the China War, so there is cause for concern.
2) Its installation on the quarterdeck doesn't take away from the type's main gun battery. This is an issue for Iberian destroyermen who want a strong broadside available for mass combat with Mexican hordes.
3) From the out-of-character perspective, I've already got Bharat dealing in ASW rockets, so Iberia can do mortars.

One unit will be laid down, with (notionally) five others following in 1946. Subsequently, Iberia would dedicate resources for consistent construction of six destroyers per year.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1945

Displacement:
2,061 t light; 2,211 t standard; 2,586 t normal; 2,886 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
430.75 ft / 419.95 ft x 42.65 ft x 11.48 ft (normal load)
131.29 m / 128.00 m x 13.00 m x 3.50 m

Armament:
6 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (3x2 guns), 67.03lbs / 30.40kg shells, 1945 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1945 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1945 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 429 lbs / 194 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 400
4 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 45,000 shp / 33,570 Kw = 34.02 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 675 tons

Complement:
180 - 235

Cost:
£1.856 million / $7.425 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 54 tons, 2.1 %
Armour: 12 tons, 0.5 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 12 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,082 tons, 41.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 766 tons, 29.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 525 tons, 20.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 146 tons, 5.6 %
-60 t: Electronics and fire control
-20 t: Rails, throwers, and 60 depth charges
-30 t: Ahead-throwing ASW weapons (~Limbo-ish)
-36 t: Weight reserve

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
890 lbs / 404 Kg = 13.3 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 13.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.90

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.440
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.85 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.59 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 78
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
- Stern: 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
- Average freeboard: 16.14 ft / 4.92 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 159.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 158.0 %
Waterplane Area: 11,771 Square feet or 1,094 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 40 lbs/sq ft or 194 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.15
- Overall: 0.54
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Looks like a nice design overall. A nice balance of speed and range with some good firepower too. My only concerns are a the poor seakeeping and poor seaboat rating, given a flushed deck layout (my favoured now after reading DK Brown's comments on forecastle breaks in a couple of books) I would have expected better.
A Squid-esque mortar sounds a good idea to me and I'd think such weapons are becoming more the norm now to deal with subs. Of course you need decent sonars and a depth-finding sonar to make this worthwhile.

It looks very comparable to France's Forbin class - identical length and slightly greater beam, about equal firepower (Forbin has two more 57mm and more torpedoes), and similar speed and range. The big difference is that Forbin is a much heavier ship tonnage-wise, since the French have significantly higher standards for seakeeping, and my ASW fit for depth charges is minimal, in light of other available weapons.

Like Hood, I would be concerned with the seaboat qualities of the proposed design; they are within the technical parameters of our rules, but personally I prefer a better seaboat rating; I look upon it as a question of how well a vessel can maintain speed in rough seas.

I personally would perfer a shorter vessel, if only to be able to construct destroyers on a Type 1 slip; it is one reason why the Elbing (now Allenstein) design of 1945 is only 120 meters. It means that I accept a slightly lower maximum speed to keep things within acceptble performance parameters. I also recognize that destroyers tend to be eggshells but personally I find her overall strength lower than I personally would like; it is a player's call as to what elements of design are most important and where sacrifices can be made.

Gave 'er a tweak. A bit heavier, seakeeping is above 1.00. I might do a sketch to see if I'm prepared to plunk another torpedo carriage in there.

I'm not greatly worried about length. The facilities are there for construction, and Iberia's got time and resources to upgrade some docks before too many of these things are in service.

Special D, laid down 1945

Displacement:
2,115 t light; 2,266 t standard; 2,644 t normal; 2,947 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
430.99 ft / 419.95 ft x 42.65 ft x 12.30 ft (normal load)
131.37 m / 128.00 m x 13.00 m x 3.75 m

Armament:
6 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (3x2 guns), 67.03lbs / 30.40kg shells, 1945 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1945 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1945 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 429 lbs / 194 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 400
4 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 45,000 shp / 33,570 Kw = 34.04 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 681 tons

Complement:
183 - 239

Cost:
£1.881 million / $7.525 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 54 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 12 tons, 0.5 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 12 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,095 tons, 41.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 805 tons, 30.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 530 tons, 20.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 149 tons, 5.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
974 lbs / 442 Kg = 14.5 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 12.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.420
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.85 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.66 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Stern: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Average freeboard: 16.80 ft / 5.12 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 158.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.4 %
Waterplane Area: 11,592 Square feet or 1,077 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 92 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 40 lbs/sq ft or 198 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.37
- Overall: 0.55
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Might adjusting the trim not make her a better seaboat at the cost of some stability? She seems steady enough.

A trim of 50% gives 1.03 seakeeping; it doesn't budge any higher regardless of where I set the trim above that.

Quoted from "The Rock Doctor"

A trim of 50% gives 1.03 seakeeping; it doesn't budge any higher regardless of where I set the trim above that.

Hmm. It is what it is... might be the BC, but changing that would mean changing everything - so not a choice to be made lightly.

I think most of it comes from the length of the ship in concert with its speed. For comparison, the Italian Venezia's are of similar size (a bit shorter and draftier), are slower by .75knts and have a .31m higher freeboard. That class has a seakeeping rating of only .04 higher then the Special D. I recall in working on the Venezia's that pushing the speed higher, even by .25knt increments, resulted in a massive drop off in seakeeping. I think pushing to 34+knts on ~120-130m in waterline length does not play well with the seakeeping formula of SS.

That could very well be the case. The Kriegsmarine tends to prefer more moderate absolute speeds on the premise that in heavy seas (like the North Atlantic) the ability to maintain speed in a seaway is preferable to performance on the measured mile. Or at least that is our story and we are sticking to it. :D

Really, seakeeping will always drop off with greater speeds, regardless of whether or not the hull is small, medium, or large, because Springsharp always calculates seakeeping at the top speed. That's why I don't hold to the belief that lowering the max speed necessarily makes something a better sea-boat: it's just an optical illusion that makes it look like it's a better sea-boat.

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

Really, seakeeping will always drop off with greater speeds, regardless of whether or not the hull is small, medium, or large, because Springsharp always calculates seakeeping at the top speed. That's why I don't hold to the belief that lowering the max speed necessarily makes something a better sea-boat: it's just an optical illusion that makes it look like it's a better sea-boat.

I would be tempted to go further down that rabbit hole and argue, mostly on small ships mind you, that less engine weight makes a worse sea-boat due to less fixed weight "below" (design dependent, hence quotes) the waterline. But I think we should let Rocky have his thread back.

Initial take on a new Iberian carrier for 1945. Figure a sister would follow in 1946.

I'm basing it fairly closely off the previous Porto class from the mid-thirties. The main difference is the higher average freeboard, and consequently reduced deck armor. Displacement is also heavier. On paper, this looks like a bad trade-off, but I think it's a more accurate sim for a ship of this size than Porto's (with its 4.6 m freeboard aft).

There's natural temptation to spring for something larger, but this size of ship should be good for a couple of decades, and Iberia's got to be mindful of hull numbers in case it's got to curb-stomp China and Mexico at the same time.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1945

Displacement:
36,087 t light; 37,178 t standard; 39,745 t normal; 41,798 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
921.68 ft / 885.83 ft x 104.99 ft x 29.86 ft (normal load)
280.93 m / 270.00 m x 32.00 m x 9.10 m

Armament:
16 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (8x2 guns), 67.03lbs / 30.41kg shells, 1945 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
28 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (14x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1945 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
36 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (9x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1945 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,248 lbs / 566 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 400

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 575.79 ft / 175.50 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 623.36 ft / 190.00 m 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.97" / 50 mm 575.79 ft / 175.50 m 26.31 ft / 8.02 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 171,582 shp / 128,000 Kw = 32.99 kts
Range 10,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,619 tons

Complement:
1,406 - 1,829

Cost:
£13.823 million / $55.291 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 156 tons, 0.4 %
Armour: 8,934 tons, 22.5 %
- Belts: 2,578 tons, 6.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,103 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 456 tons, 1.1 %
- Armour Deck: 4,698 tons, 11.8 %
- Conning Tower: 99 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,333 tons, 10.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,751 tons, 37.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,658 tons, 9.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 7,913 tons, 19.9 %
-6,724 t: Air group of 82 a/c
-200 t: Eight disassembled spares
-200 t: Electronics, fire control, comms
-200 t: CIC
-200 t: Flight operations facilities
-200 t: Enhanced damage control equipment
-189 t: Weight reserve

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
97,187 lbs / 44,083 Kg = 1,449.8 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 14.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 7.0 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 16.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.08
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.501
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.44 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 34.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 39.37 ft / 12.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 39.37 ft / 12.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 39.37 ft / 12.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 39.37 ft / 12.00 m
- Stern: 39.37 ft / 12.00 m
- Average freeboard: 39.37 ft / 12.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 344.0 %
Waterplane Area: 64,497 Square feet or 5,992 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 149 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 141 lbs/sq ft or 688 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.16
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Overall it looks to be a decent design to my eye; perhaps a bit slower than I might like, but the seaworthiness and stability are good. The only technical question I have is the use of turrets and barbettes on the 13cm battery. Would not a mount and hoist be just as good with fewer complications for topweight? And maybe a bit more ammunition for the main battery?

What's wrong with the speed? It looks plenty fast enough to me.

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

What's wrong with the speed? It looks plenty fast enough to me.

Uh, because I'd like to coax 33 knots out of a design this balanced?

Really, the speed is pretty good, though not as fast as some designs.

The turret/barbette arrangement's a hold-over from the Mac days. I think it was related to an early rapid-fire variant - if so, I can easily use some of the weight reserve to account for the added weapon weight.

I know some folks are building to 34 or 35 knots, but previous Iberian practice was 33 knots and I reckon that's still pretty good.

Looks good to me and 33kts seems plenty fast enough to me, most large RN ships haven't even got that fast yet!