WesWorld

Quoted from "Desertfox"

Could we agree on an IC sale of Atlantic to the US in 1938 then instead of a straight retcon? With a corresponding sale of Fokker Australia to Australian Aviation? The current Australian Mustang version is the P-51B with Malcolm hood.

Atlantic would have been sold to the US at least by 1935, since North American Aviation put out at least one design in 1935 under the NAA name.

It's a complicated process, complicated further by multiple players and poor communications.

We can't just ignore the existence of Atlantic, so I would say it was sold to GMC around 1937-ish, or whenever Hrolf took control. As for Fokker Australia, well it depends if it was a subsidiary of Atlantic or Fokker. If the latter case, I've no objections of a sale to Australian Aviation, if the former, the ball is in Jason's court. I believe the AA P-51 existed before the NAA ones appeared, perhaps to get around it, we could say the AA P-51 was an early pre-OTL P-51 that the NAA version represents. After all the AA version has a Merlin and Malcolm hood, which would give it quite some difference from the NAA versions.

Regarding trainers and liaison types. I have agreed a deal with Bruce to buy 100 BFW Bf-108 light aircraft. I've backdated the deal to 1943, partly since it makes sense to fill some gaps in Kirk's types and partly because BFW stopped making the Bf 108 that year.

My twin-engine trainer will be a military version of the Koolhoven F.K.57 (specs to follow) which also doubles as a radio or navigation trainer and will also serve as a light six-seat transport. The Bf 108 will serve as a smaller four-seat type for communications duties, ferrying top brass around, some refresher training too.

So for imports so far that's; France (Milan and Épaulard plus the Gnome-Rhome engines), Germany (Bf108 plus Argus engines), Britain (Blackburn B.44 plus Napier Sabre engines under licence), Czech (Fokker-Avia stuff plus engines from Avia-Minerva and Walter).

Just so you know, Breguet-Nord is still producing Noralphas, and probably will keep doing so at a low level for another ten or fifteen years. Lorraine also license-builds the Argus engines - and again, will probably do so for many years. So the type's not likely to go out of service very soon, and the Dutch will have plenty of parts availability.

Yeah, the Noralpha's look nice and it had crossed my mind to order them, but, my initial thoughts were to get a BFW licence for the Netherlands, which would entail re-inventing the wheel, and given the big orders for naval aircraft I felt it was only fair to give German firms a chance. If the 108s are replaced when they are ten years old (about 1953-54) then I guess the Noralpha might just fit the bill.
The Bf 108s will not be entirely stock, they will have full blind flying instrumentation and tropicalisation/ anti-corrosion measures for use overseas.

*frantically throws Caproni, SMS, and Fiat catalogs around*

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

Just so you know, Breguet-Nord is still producing Noralphas, and probably will keep doing so at a low level for another ten or fifteen years. Lorraine also license-builds the Argus engines - and again, will probably do so for many years. So the type's not likely to go out of service very soon, and the Dutch will have plenty of parts availability.

As I advised Hood, the Luftwaffe ceased procurement of new Bf108s at the close of 1943 - it has several hundred in service and will continue to have them in service for at least a few years to come; and the Argus engines are still in large scale production as they are employed by many other Luftwaffe aircraft. And, as I also advised him, BFW is continuing the production of the Bf108 for the civil market as a sport-plane, its original role. An order the size of the Netherlands', coming at a time when the BFW order book was rather thin, would have been most welcome and advantageous financial terms would have been offered. The Dutch will certainly be able to obtain OEM parts for many years to come.

My spreadsheet crunching is almost complete and I'm pretty happy with the way things are working out, though I have a suspicion there are too many types given the small number of formations allocated to each type, but that does also reduce the production requirements. Contrary to Bruce's fears, there are ample training aircraft and capacity now.

My spreadsheet numbers are

Fighters
658 frontline, 116 training, 44 auxiliary duties, 7 research/prototypes, 274 stored = 1099

Bombers
616 frontline, 107 training, 64 auxiliary duties, 14 research/prototypes, 134 stored = 935

Transports
390 frontline, 135 training, 0 auxiliary duties, 1 research/prototypes, 15 stored = 541

Trainers
990 training, 20 auxiliary duties, 5 research/prototypes, 144 stored = 857


Naval Aircraft

Fighters
220 frontline, 26 training, 250 stored = 496

Carrier-Bombers/ bombers/ seaplane bombers
312 frontline, 8training, 0 auxiliary duties, 1 research/prototypes, 183 stored = 50

Flying boat and land-based recon
312 frontline, 35 training, 0 auxiliary duties, 3 research/prototypes, 56 stored = 406

Transports/ Trainers
28 frontline, 74 training, 8 stored = 110


Air Force Manpower
2,392 pilots, 1,722 aircrew, 980 instructors, capacity for 1,532 pupils, 8,181 ground crew = total 5,094 (exc. students and other base personnel)

Navy Air Manpower
939 pilots, 2,016 aircrew, 136 instructors, capacity for 228 students, 3,760 ground crew (exc. those aboard ships and carriers) = total 6,715 (exc. students and other personnel)

I hate to be a nudge on the subject, but may I ask for clarification of whether the aircraft and personnel numbers represent units deployed solely in the Netherlands or does it represent units deployed both at home and overseas?

If the former, 390 front-line transport aircraft seems quite a large number for home-based units.

Also, with approximately 2,600 aircraft in service, only 8,000 odd ground crew seems a very small number of service personnel - little more than three "yerks" per aircraft across the entire air force. Who maintains the airfields, the radar chain and the command posts? Or do the numbers cited only refer to manpower in active flying units?

I have never actually figured out the number of non-flying personnel in the Luftwaffe due to lack of historical data (I haven't found too much to date and it has not been a top priority).

That's everything everywhere.

The majority of the transports are overseas and are small types rather than big transports.

The ground crew is that assigned to each aircraft and excludes other maintainance, workshop, control tower, radio, mess and security personnel etc.Likewise for the navy figures and ignoring the shipboard crew.

Quoted from "Hood"

That's everything everywhere.

The majority of the transports are overseas and are small types rather than big transports.

The ground crew is that assigned to each aircraft and excludes other maintainance, workshop, control tower, radio, mess and security personnel etc.Likewise for the navy figures and ignoring the shipboard crew.

Thank you for the clarification; all makes more sense now. :)

Some civil types, including stuff proposed for the Fokker SAE tie-up. Those Dutchmen were nutty about twin-boom pusher aircraft, almost everything they build during the late 1930s seems to be one!! No wonder Kirk continued that theme, and so shall I!
All of the light aircraft are real, the F.37 and F.24 are Kirk's work and the new F.26 is my own design for a new airliner to bridge things until the F.27 Friendship appears in the 1950. I probably also need to look at a long-range type, but I might buy that from someone else since Fokker is getting overloaded.


De Schelde S.20
This twin-boom pusher-layout light aircraft was designed as a trainer for KLM and the military. It has a fixed tricycle undercarriage and is of mixed construction. The prototype first flew on 29 March 1940 and showed good performance & stability. KLM brought fourteen of a dual-control trainer version and production aircraft for private owners have an optional dual layout.
Wingspan: 11.35 m (37 ft 2 in)
Length: 8.65 m (28 ft 3 in)
Height: 2.60 m (8 ft 5 in)
Empty Weight: 840 kg (1,851 lb)
Maximum take-off weight: 1340 kg (2,954 lb)
Wing loading: 78.36 kg / m²
Powerplant: 160hp Hirth air-cooled six-cylinder engine with adjustable two-blade wooden propeller
Maximum speed: 216 km/h (134 mph) at 3,000 m (9,842 ft)
Cruising speed: 180 km / h (111 mph) at 3,000 m (9,842 ft)
Ceiling: 4,800 m (15,750 ft)
Normal range: 650 km (403 miles)
Maximum range: 780 km (484 miles)

Fokker SAE F.37S Springbok
Classification: medium-range airliner
Length: 23.59 m (77 ft 4 in)
Wingspan: 33 m (108 ft3 in)
Wing area: 171.87 m² (1,850 ft²)
Max takeoff weight: 18000 kg (39,683 lb)
Powerplant: four 1,250hp Rayton Hurricane III 14-cyl radial engines
Maximum speed: 392 km/h (244 mph)
Range: 2500 km (1,553 miles)
Service ceiling: 9753 m (32,000 ft)
Rate of climb : 5.48 m/sec (1,079 ft/min)
Passengers: 32 seated four abreast or 16 sleeper berths, facilities include toilet and galley
Crew: three flight crew, one cabin crew
Cargo: baggage and up to 453 kg (1,000 6b) of mail
Notes: This is a further development of the F.37 Arend for the South African market, it is fitted with local engines and a stronger undercarriage with the same specially manufactured 70” Dunlop tires to allow the use of rough airstrips. The rear fuselage also has a large cargo door and all aircraft can be converted to freight duties. The type has been in production since 1940.

Fokker F.24
Classification: medium airliner
Length: 20.7 m (67 ft 9 in)
Wingspan: 28.5 m (95 ft 6in)
Height: 5.2 m (17 ft)
Empty weight: 8500 kg (18,740 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 13250 kg (29,211 lb)
Powerplant: two 1,600hp Wright R-2600 Cyclone radials
Cruising speed: 330 km/h (205 mph)
Range: 1,200 km (745 miles) with full payload
Passengers: 24 seated three abreast in two cabins, facilities include toilet and galley
Crew: four flight crew, one cabin crew
Cargo: there is a cargo hold with a cargo door of the starboard side behind the cockpit, two more in the wing centre section and another in the rear fuselage
Operators: KLM and KNILM
Availability: Still in production.
Notes: features include an integral stair which folds into the side wall of the fuselage, a tricycle undercarriage and the fuselage underside is reinforced to protect the passengers in the event of an emergency wheels-up landing. Entered KLM service in early 1937.

Fokker F.24-II
A variant powered by Minerva licence-built Bristol Hercules radial engines. A prototype flew in March 1940 and production began later that year. Specifications are unchanged.

Fokker SAE F.24S and F.24ST
This is a version of the F.24 built by Fokker SAE for the South African market. These differ in being powered by two 1,640hp Rayton Hurricane X 14-cylinder radial engines, sturdier undercarriage with lower-pressure tires, desert survival kit, extra HF radios and thicker underfuselage skins to resist stones and debris on take-off and landing. The F.24ST is a cargo aircraft which has the cargo door and tip-up seats of the military F.24T married to the other F.24S changes. Specifications are unchanged.

Fokker F.25 Promotor
A single-engined, twin-boomed, four-passenger monoplane with a pusher engine mounted at the rear of a central nacelle. It is a development of the C.XIII observation aircraft. It is of wooden construction and has a retractable tricycle undercarriage. When being used as an air ambulance aircraft it can carry a patient on a stretcher, which is loaded through a hatch in the aircraft's nose. The prototype first flew in May 1944. Production is carried out by Aviolanda under sub-contract.
Wingspan: 12.00 m (39 ft 4 in)
Length: 8.53 m (28 ft 0 in)
Height: 2.97 m (9 ft 9 in)
Wing area: 18.0 m² (193 ft²)
Empty weight: 961 kg (2,115 lb)
Max. take-off weight: 1,427 kg (3,140 lb)
Powerplant: 240hp Argus As410 or 190hp Walter Major 6 or 190hp Lycoming O-435-A
Maximum speed: 227 km/h (, 141 mph)
Cruise speed: 185 km/h (115 mph)
Stall speed: 85 km/h (53 mph)
Service ceiling: 3,400 m (11,150 ft)
Climb to 1,000 m (3,300 ft): 6.2 min
Range: 950 km (590 miles)

Fokker SAE F.25 Pretoria
A version of the F.25 Promotor built for the South African market. It differs in having a local 240hp Stuart engine, a sturdy fixed tricycle undercarriage and can be delivered in the following variants; two-seat dual control trainer, four-seat light aircraft, air ambulance with one stretcher, aerial survey with two camera and as an anti-poaching aircraft with a nose searchlight and the ability to fire hand guns and rifles from the side windows.

[bFokker Partner[/b]
This is a smaller variant of the Promotor with a similar layout but with only a two-seat side-by-side cockpit and a fixed undercarriage. The prototype first few on 11 May 1945. Production is carried out by Aviolanda under sub-contract.
It was planned to use an approximately 85hp engine (make not specified) and some brief details:
Wingspan 10.0 m (32 ft 8 in)
Length 6.85 m (22 ft 4 in)
Height 1.80 m (5 ft 9 in)
Powerplant: 85hp air-cooled piston engine
Maximum speed 185 km/h (115 mph)
Cruising speed: 150 km/h (93 mph)
Maximum ceiling: 3700 m (12,140 ft)
Range: 570km (354 miles)

Fokker F.26
A medium twin-engined airliner with a high wing and tricycle undercarriage. The F.26 was designed to replace the F.24 series and is a multi-purpose type which can be specified with a range of cabin interiors and a cargo/passenger door to cater for passenger or freight flights. The cabin can seat up to 48 passengers four-abreast in maximum configuration, normally 36 passengers are carried. A toilet and a galley are fitted. A flightcrew of three is carried, along with up to two stewards/ stewardesses. The first of three prototypes flew on 9 February 1945 and after passing certification tests in early 1946, was sold on the open market and production also began in SAE as the F.26S. The launch orders were from KLM (45) and KNILM (32).
Wingspan: 29 m (95 ft 2 in)
Length: 25.06 m (82 ft 3 in)
Height: 8.72 m (28 ft 7 in)
Wing area: 70 m2 (750 sq ft)
Empty weight: 11,204 kg (24,701 lb)
Max take-off weight: 18,800 kg (41,446 lb)
Powerplant: 2x 2,375hp Minerva Condor II 24-cylinder radial engines
Cruising speed: 460 km/h (286 mph)
Service ceiling: 8230 m (27,000 ft)
Range: 2,300 km (1,430 miles)

Koolhoven F.K.53 Junior
This is small low-wing cantilever monoplane sports aircraft of conventional design with tandem seating for two under a long canopy built from 1933. The gull wings carry the main units of the tailwheel undercarriage. The first two aircraft were purchased by the Dutch national flying school in 1933 after testing was completed and several were sold to Belgium.
Wingspan: 10.50 m (34 ft 5 in)
Length: 7.20 m (23 ft 8 in)
Height: 2.05 m (6 ft 8 in)
Wing area: 15.5 m2 (167 ft2)
Empty weight: 310 kg (680 lb)
Gross weight: 540 kg (1,190 lb)
Powerplant: 62hp Walter Mikron
Maximum speed: 150 km/h (94 mph)
Service ceiling: 3,200 m (10,500 ft)
Range: 370 km (230 miles)

Quoted from "Hood"

I probably also need to look at a long-range type, but I might buy that from someone else since Fokker is getting overloaded.

France offers to send their Transat demonstrator to demonstrate for KLM.

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

Quoted from "Hood"

I probably also need to look at a long-range type, but I might buy that from someone else since Fokker is getting overloaded.

France offers to send their Transat demonstrator to demonstrate for KLM.

As Junkers will as well for their Ju390. 8)

SAI offers the Piaggio P.108C and Caproni sends along marketing material for the upcoming Ca.500 (OTL Bz.308) long range airliner.

DeHavilland Australia can offer the civilian version of the DH.93 Albatross II, a plane the DEI should already be familiar with.

Finding ideal photos or models to represent Kirk's imaginings is hard, so I'm going to draw all the aircraft for all the units!!

First up, the Fokker D.XXIII series.

I'm never a fan of twin-boom aircraft, but these look pretty nifty. I kinda like the "ugly Duckling" version with the annular radiator best. Very nicely done.

The WW Koolhoven F.K.55.
I've based this off the real-world Gudkov Gu-1 in looks but retained some of the features of the real-world version and its a much better looking machine (well, good looking for Ugly Aircraft Inc.!!).