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Kaiser Kirk

Lightbringer and former European Imperialist

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Saturday, March 29th 2014, 7:52pm

The Netherlands, Kongo, and Belgium are open

Greetings all,

I have several things to cover.

1) I apologize to wait so long to post this. I wanted to get past a
major personal stress point in early December prior to making a
final decision, but after that I had no interest in returning to post.

2) As I expect folks figured out, I did quit after that Belgian army
thread scuffle in October. While I realize that exchange was very
minor in some ways, it was the last straw. Alone,
it's not back breaking, but set in my personal context , I have less
tolerance for it. Overall, it brought back bad memories. This
type of thing makes playing here very not enjoyable.

So, the Netherlands, Kongo, and Belgium are indeed open for a new player.

I've considered leaving Wesworld before, back in 1938 with the
Howard mess, inappropriate tech, outsized armies, Persian armaments,
and all the arguments about them. Just made this an unpleasant place
to frequent. It's when I first ramped back. Plus, not too interested
in the post WWII tech and ships. Then this summer, I considered
dropping the position rather than trying to come back.

But I figured I'd see it through to 1950, and I had the story of the
formation of the Orange Confederation to tell. Plus I figured that
as I got back into it, had more free time, and less stress, I'd have
more interest. Which had been true.

4) The Dutch fleet is in the midst of a large
refit/rebuild/downsizing cycle, and I was in the process of
encyclopedia management, so it's going to be a bit mess for a new

A common complaint on vacant positions is not knowing what they
are up too. So, to help any caretakers/following players, or just
let others know what I was up to :

[u]Various things planned :[/u]

Encyclopedia - I was nearly done updating this. I had one last
flurry planned at the end of the game year as the Training vessels
need updating/moving.

The following old posts to be moved to an archive folder or deleted

all 6 posts by RAM

Destroyers & Frigates of the Netherlands navy - by me

Coastal battleships of the Netherlands navy - by me

Tanks of the Netherlands


Not reflected in the BOO is that the Indic fleet moved from Phuket
to Balikapapan somewhere about 1942, I believe it made the news

Obviously the Dutch fleet has to downsize in the near term, it's
inflated size being a reflection of the projection of a 1938-42

Eventually, the idea was to have:


Battlesquadron - 2 x Kortenaer I, 2x Utrecht, 1x CLAA, + 1x
Fighter Carrier Squadron - (1x Eendracht/St. Clair , 1 x Friesland
CA, 2 CL)

Carrier Squadron - Strike Carrier - 1 x Van Meel CVS, 1x CLAA, + 1x
Fighter Carrier Squadron - (1x Eendracht/St. Clair , 1 x Friesland
CA, 2 CL)

Cruiser Squadron - 4 x Black Eagle

Reserve : 2x Ijelsijks

DEI Fleet


Battlesquadron - 2 x Kortenaer II, 1x Van Heemskerck, 2 x De Rutyer,
1x CLAA, 1x Fighter Carrier Squadron - (1x Eendracht/St. Clair , 1
x Friesland CA, 2 CL)


Strike Carrier at - 1 x Van Meel CVS, 1x CLAA, 1x Fighter Carrier
Squadron - (1x Eendracht/St. Clair , 1 x Friesland CA, 2 CL)

Cruiser Squadron - 4 x Breda


CDS Boerentange

2 Cruisers at Paramaribo, 2 at Matadi.

Eventually :

Zeven Provinciens to be scrapped.

Konigs to be sold for scrap

Frigates & Z25 Scrapped.

Auxiliaries scrapped and replaced with merchant conversions from
Belgian ships bought in 1930s.

KBH Tijgerhaai class to all be converted to training/Target vessels,
all remaining such vessels scrapped.

CV Hund replaced with 2 converted Oilers, 1 at Den Helder, 1 at

New "2nd Rate" Battleships/Battlecruisers ~28-30k tons, to be built
to replace the DeRutyers....unless changing times led to more
Carriers. Ultimately, the Dutch were going to field 2xKortenaer II
& 2 "B" battleships at home, and 2xKortenaer & 2 x "B"
Battleships in the DEI, each with an organic fighter carrier
element. Initially the Bs were to be the Utrechts, van Heemskerck
and treat the 2 DeRutyers as 1 "B". Eventually I think some
29,000ton 8x325mm battleships would have been the new "B"s.

Hund scrapped as training Carrier. Rebuilt Eendracht class serves as
add hoc training carriers until budget frees up and some oilers
converted. 1 "fighter" CVL with each Battle squadron or Carrier

Refit the shipping bought in 1933 and introduce as auxiliaries (when
I joined, I was told that most auxiliaries were unspecified, could
be commandeered from the civil side and you didn't need to buy them,
now, esp after the 1/4 rule, everyone's building fleet trains).

115mm 24kg DP gun to be introduced in refits on the Z53 & Gruno
classes. With a higher sectional density than the 125mm it flies
flatter and higher, while still holding proximity fuses and
possessing a good burst radius. Eventually replacing the 100mm and
125mm in service. The lower weight also helps allow reasonable
refits of the Z53s- RAMs design has little excess. Also, when I
built the Grunos, I couldn't find a picture or deck plan, so I doubled
the guns fore/aft when they should have been singles with 2 at the
waist, so this is better for the vessel size. This would be
followed by that DP 150mm put up in the Ships thread on the
Class CL, which you'll note has indeed been delayed.

Aircraft :

Aircraft analogous to planes like the F7F Tigercat & Sea Hornet,
F4U Corsair , SAAB21J, DH Vampire, were the future. The Twin boom
theme was going to continue, with the tractor/pusher D.XXIII
evolving to Do335 specs, then SAAB21R then DH Vampire over time.
G-1s were to split into Fighter (P-38L -> twin boom F7F), night
fighter (P61), ground attack bomber (twin boom Pe-2) and Recon
(XF-15) variants. Medium bombers were to go from T.IX to DH
Hornet/Sea Hornet style planes. Torpedo planes would be like the
Blackburn Firecrest, then something like the TU-91. Transports were
to go the C82N Packet -> C119 flying boxcar w/track gear route.

Diplomatic Affairs


Benelux conference. Luxembourg seeking greater economic integration
and coordinated investment/infrastructure, talk of joining UKN.
Followed by outreach to Germans/French for international roads.

The Dutch form the architecture of the future Confederation,
allowing a path for provinces to become independent, and then secede
if desired. Kongo and Luxembourg participate as observers. Goal
would be a government with a minimum rights constitution, joint
citizenship, as well as allowances for extra joiners/seceders,
mutual defense, a joint naval fleet with national auxiliaries, and
national armies armies with "expeditionary corps" for joint actions.
Financially, lower income countries would benefit from limited
issuance of joint bonds, access to markets and technology, and
provincial currencies which would be annually repegged to a central
currency - allowing for disparate growth at a capped inflation rate,
which should also aid in gaining investment. Developed countries
would have markets, labor forces, and safe investment locations.

One idea was that Belgians Walloon fringe would try to put secession
on the ballot, only to have the ethnic Flemish and Luxembourgians
(SE Belgium) do the same. Hadn't penciled it out past that, either
Belgium would stay together, or fracture. If it fractured, in the
end the Flemish and Luxembourgians would join the Confederation,
leaving Wallonia as an independent Belgium. Then I'm unsure if the
Walloons would stay, join, or go ask the French for annexation (as
considered in the 1800s).


Information sharing with AEGIS to continue.

The alliance with the Danish player would need to be assessed for
continuing relevance. Go ahead and consider joining the Nordmark/UK/Germany

In Afrika, I was going to try to get a Prince married off to the SAE.
Continued cooperation on technological & intelligence matters with
SEAR was to
continue, barring diplomatic changes. Hoo and I had agreed to joint
research as a secret amendment to
SANTA, bringing Dutch AA & Radar tech, and SAE jet tech to the
mutual table. There's already been news articles hinting at this.
Long term, I could have seen a formal alliance. Possibly revisit a
Nordmark-SAE Alliance with Denmark added.

I also decided to after the Kortenaer II class enters
service, scrap one Konig and give the other back to SAE as a
war memorial - possibly financed by the Queen as a wedding gift.

I was considering a
Belgo-Dutch Royal cruise, with a stop in Kinshasha to announce the
succession, a visit to SAE (wedding?) and possibly including a stop
in Bahrat. Alternately, send Princess Julianna & Family to the
wedding, and have them continue to Bahrat on the King Albert in
their role as Belgian Royalty.

I was going to follow up on the Aussie- DEI alliance proposed by
Foxy, as it gives strategic depth, though how it effects SAE/Bahrat's attitudes would be relevant. I

Of course, any new player can go any direction they want, as
these are no longer mine. Perhaps a revolt funded by the French to rid
the Netherlands of their Imperialist Queen goes awry and the new
communist government shuts the Rhine trade and commits to a massive
submarine building to wage war on the merchant marines of the world's
capitalists ! Subs build fast, you can get going by 1950 !

I'm just trying to tidy up my mess, and providing some ideas for the
interim, so it's not a complete void


Saturday, March 29th 2014, 8:01pm

Hey Kirk,

I'm sorry to hear you've decided to step out, though I had guessed that's what happened when you disappeared. :( For my part, I'm sorry if anything I did contributed to your decision.

But thanks for letting us know, and thanks for putting together a briefing sheet for future players.


Saturday, March 29th 2014, 8:03pm

Sorry to see you go, Kirk, but thanks for the good times past.


Keeper of the Sacred Block Coefficient

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Saturday, March 29th 2014, 11:25pm

I can just say I am very saddened to see you go.

While I understand your reasons well, I still had hoped all the time that you would stay. But well, here is your decision and it opens a flank - so to say. Rest ensured, you will be missed as I always liked to share thoughts on tech and stories with you. I learned to respect you as a very reasonable and intelligent guy to talk to.

Will you stick around as a lurcker some time? Would be nice to stay in touch...




Saturday, March 29th 2014, 11:34pm

Will you stick around as a lurcker some time? Would be nice to stay in touch...



Sunday, March 30th 2014, 11:22am

Sorry to hear your leaving Kirk.
I'm not surprised but I hope you'll still lurk around and get some enjoyment from the forums.


Sunday, March 30th 2014, 6:44pm

Bad bad bad news .... another one has gone !!!!


Tuesday, April 1st 2014, 12:25am

Bad news.
Hope to see you again later on a SIM Forum.
Good luck for your life.



Saturday, April 26th 2014, 5:53pm

With the blessing of the Mod Team, my application to take over the reigns of Belgium, Netherlands and Kongo from Kaiser Kirk has been accepted.

My first tasks are to complete the Q4/44 reports and then move onto 1945. There are several issues, as Kirk has described in his very helpful post above, to be sorted out and I will share my thoughts on these subjects very soon. Also, plans for the future of the navies have to be sorted and I can see a few changes likely, although much of Kirk's scrapping programme will go ahead and perhaps additional ships will follow.

Anyone with deals or relations with these nations who have any helpful info or ideas are more than welcome to PM me.


Saturday, April 26th 2014, 6:36pm

Excellent, excellent.


Saturday, April 26th 2014, 6:40pm

Excellent, excellent.

I'll second that. I look forward to the future.


Sunday, April 27th 2014, 3:10pm

Here are some early thoughts and plans that I have made so far, be aware there is a lot to read and catch up on so progress might take time and some have higher priority than others to be sorted.

I have taken most of Kirk's naval plans without major changes.
His ideal fleets outlined above will be implemented.

The Zeven Provinciens and the Konigs will be scrapped (one Konig to SAE as a museum ship)
Eight cruisers are well past the sell by date and must go too. This leaves a serious shortage of cruisers which will need to be made up by 6 new cruisers of modern design, whether those will be repeat CLAA or a new 12x 5.9in design remains to be decided.

The lack of auxiliaries is very worrying. I think its a case of the merchant conversions from Belgian ships bought in 1930s supplementing rather than replacing the current tenders. Many more tankers are needed, at present the Dutch have one tanker and three colliers.
New 2nd Rate Battleships/Battlecruisers to replace the DeRutyers are very unlikely, perhaps a couple of new light carriers might be built, but at this stage more cruisers are needed.

Military Equipment
Kirk's rough flow chart evolutions will be fleshed out with proper details for ground and air equipment.

Diplomatic Affairs


The Benelux idea has had a bashing OOC from numerous people and there was little support for it. I don't support it either and the idea will be abandoned and whatever federal structure emerges to encompass the colonies will be different. Luxembourg is not in my remit and will remain a NPC nation. Belgium will remain an independent entity, though of course close ties will remain.
The economic ties need looking at more closely, it may be they as far as any union gets.


The main aim is to maintain the Empire and use it to increase or maintain Dutch world presence and power. Only the Empire keeps the Dutch as a Great Power and so little will be done to jepordise the stability of the Empire (one of the flaws of Kirk's Confederation idea).
Information sharing with AEGIS to continue.
The Alliance with Denmark will continue, there is no active Danish player hence no-one to assess with and therefore there will be no change.
A Dutch entry into GNUK will be studied but whether that makes sense is for the GNUK players to discuss amongst ourselves.
There will be no changes to the close relationship with SAE and tech sharing etc. will continue as before and in some areas relations might get closer.
Again, without a Danish player, any Nordmark-SAE Alliance with Denmark is a mute point.
I'll consider an Australian-DEI alliance but really I can't see what that adds to SAER, especially if the remit of SAER alters in the light of recent Asian events.
Close relations with Bharat will continue as before.


Monday, May 5th 2014, 6:28am

Well SEAR was anti-SATSUMA and with SATSUMA pretty much dead, will SEAR continue? Also Australia is not a member of SEAR any longer.


Monday, May 5th 2014, 5:46pm

Britain would like to put to a membership vote the removal of the article regarding Satsuma and putting in its place a much vaguer third-party attacker as a catch-all for all bad guys.

Why would the Dutch want to be part of two overlapping treaties covering the same stuff with two different membership bases? It makes no sense, Britain can give far more to mutual security than the Australian's who still have the Bharat bogyman theory, even though the Dutch are friendly with the Bharatis. The Dutch back door is in safe hands with the SAE too.

Actually thinking about commerce protection, I was wondering what the likely threat really is? Sure there are long voyages to Europe, but in a war the SAE would certainly provide aid at the West end of the Indian Ocean (Bharat might offer some kind of low-key help given their new isolationism) and any SinoChoJap aka Bad Guys surface or submarine raider has to get past the RN and Dutch and French forces to get into the Indian Ocean (a OTL Malaya campaign is not foreseen as being likely to succeed to enable China to get base further southwest).
Obviously some merchant cruisers might slip through or sail from neutral ports, but generally I think the sealanes west are pretty secure in an Asian War scenario.


Saturday, May 24th 2014, 5:30pm


Britain would like to put to a membership vote the removal of the article regarding Satsuma and putting in its place a much vaguer third-party attacker as a catch-all for all bad guys.
Thinking of it, would it not have been better if SAER was like that from the beginning?


Saturday, May 24th 2014, 5:42pm

Probably, but at the time the only major threat was Satsuma with a dangerous threat on three-four fronts.


Saturday, May 24th 2014, 5:57pm

Looks to me like the nations that formed SAER did not have the vision to look beyond SATSUMA. :)