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Heavy Cruiser - Bombardment

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Rooijen10

Mr. Valentines Day

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21

Tuesday, March 18th 2014, 9:50pm

Quoted

I did mention it was a 15"/56 which entails more muzzle velocity than the actual Bismarck gun. I determined the range from my tools and cross-checked with NAaB and NavGun. Perhaps a revision to 60km anyways?

The main thing is that you mentioned that the Bismarck's guns as coastal guns had a range of 60km and I assumed you used that figure as a baseline to calculate the range of your own gun. If you did that, then it means that it is wrong as the range for the the German one is not 60 km but 54.9 km. Playing around a bit with BigGun with values of both guns, I get ~60km so that is probably the value to go for.

Logi

Trainee

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22

Thursday, April 17th 2014, 2:10am

I believe this is the corrected sim, but it has been a while.

Quoted

CAB-04 Reliable, Light Cruiser - Bombardment laid down 1945

Displacement:
12,451 t light; 13,411 t standard; 14,500 t normal; 15,371 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
631.56 ft / 600.39 ft x 60.04 ft x 28.05 ft (normal load)
192.50 m / 183.00 m x 18.30 m x 8.55 m

Armament:
3 - 12.99" / 330 mm guns (1x3 guns), 661.39lbs / 300.00kg shells, 1945 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline forward
36 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (18x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1945 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1945 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
24 - 0.91" / 23.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.37lbs / 0.17kg shells, 1945 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,137 lbs / 1,423 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 350

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 520.01 ft / 158.50 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 133 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.56" / 65 mm 1.18" / 30 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 173,793 shp / 129,649 Kw = 37.50 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,960 tons

Complement:
659 - 858

Cost:
£10.644 million / $42.578 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 584 tons, 4.0 %
Armour: 1,497 tons, 10.3 %
- Belts: 402 tons, 2.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 159 tons, 1.1 %
- Armour Deck: 911 tons, 6.3 %
- Conning Tower: 25 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,389 tons, 30.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,704 tons, 39.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,049 tons, 14.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 277 tons, 1.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,257 lbs / 4,199 Kg = 8.4 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 15.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.84
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.502
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.96 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 45.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.17 ft / 9.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Stern: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Average freeboard: 24.51 ft / 7.47 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 133.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 171.6 %
Waterplane Area: 25,020 Square feet or 2,324 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 119 lbs/sq ft or 579 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.89
- Longitudinal: 2.81
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Total: 277t
- 100 tons for Electronic Suite
- 25 tons for Electronic Fire-Control on 380mm, 100mm, and 57mm guns
- 50 tons for Communications
- 40 tons for Combat Management Center
- 25 tons for Surface and Air Search Radars (2 radars)
- 10 tons for Air Search Radar (1 radar)
- 4 tons for Navigational Surface and Air Search Radar (2 radars)
- 12 tons for Fire-Control Radar (3 radars)
- 6 tons for Height-finding Radar (1 radar)
- 5 tons for forward Voith-Schneider maneuvering system

Brockpaine

The Shadow

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23

Thursday, April 17th 2014, 2:28am

Presuming this isn't an April Fool's joke, my comments -
- Beam is too narrow for a triple 8", let alone a triple 13" gun.
- Armour is just heavy enough to not protect anything from anything while adding weight.
- Speed too extreme - engine plant likely to be temperamental.
- Beam too thin for four shafts.
- Ship is not large enough to mount eighteen twin 100mm guns... maybe eight, if they're cramped, but not more than that.
- Main battery ammo is very high.

Opinion: concept extremely flawed, design is a complete waste of money for anyone except your favorite enemy.

Logi

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24

Friday, May 2nd 2014, 4:06am

I don't recall what stage that design was at, although looking back now it seems questionable for all the mentioned reasons with the exception of the main battery ammo. The main battery ammo was high to serve the fire mission longer & provide more ammo (more than 350 for the automatics).

Here is a revised design.

Quoted

CL-01, A2/AD Cruiser laid down 1945

Displacement:
12,514 t light; 13,932 t standard; 14,500 t normal; 14,954 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
583.99 ft / 557.74 ft x 68.90 ft x 26.25 ft (normal load)
178.00 m / 170.00 m x 21.00 m x 8.00 m

Armament:
6 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (2x3 guns), 551.16lbs / 250.00kg shells, 1945 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (8x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1945 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1945 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 0.91" / 23.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.37lbs / 0.17kg shells, 1945 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,891 lbs / 1,765 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 500

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 416.67 ft / 127.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 115 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.12" / 130 mm 2.56" / 65 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 121,359 shp / 90,534 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,022 tons

Complement:
659 - 858

Cost:
£10.267 million / $41.067 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 737 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 2,303 tons, 15.9 %
- Belts: 801 tons, 5.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 503 tons, 3.5 %
- Armour Deck: 973 tons, 6.7 %
- Conning Tower: 25 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 3,065 tons, 21.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,133 tons, 42.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,986 tons, 13.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 277 tons, 1.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13,428 lbs / 6,091 Kg = 15.5 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.80
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.503
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.10 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.41 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 45.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Stern: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Average freeboard: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 114.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 202.6 %
Waterplane Area: 26,704 Square feet or 2,481 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 132 lbs/sq ft or 643 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.88
- Longitudinal: 3.04
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Total: 277t
- 100 tons for Electronic Suite
- 25 tons for Electronic Fire-Control on 380mm, 100mm, and 57mm guns
- 50 tons for Communications
- 40 tons for Combat Management Center
- 25 tons for Surface and Air Search Radars (2 radars)
- 10 tons for Air Search Radar (1 radar)
- 4 tons for Navigational Surface and Air Search Radar (2 radars)
- 12 tons for Fire-Control Radar (3 radars)
- 6 tons for Height-finding Radar (1 radar)
- 5 tons for forward Voith-Schneider maneuvering system

Brockpaine

The Shadow

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25

Friday, May 2nd 2014, 4:58am

Ta pocketa pocketa pocketbattleship!

Logi

Trainee

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26

Friday, May 2nd 2014, 8:39am

On glance, it does appear to be one, but I think it is distinguished from pocket battleships by it's traits inherited from it's mission.

If you look it's a 12" (305mm) gun shooting a 250kg (HE) shell. That's less than half that of the Alaska 12" shells. Mostly likely it can't penetrate a heavy cruiser, let alone a capital ship. It does, however, have range of ~40-50nm. The doctrine for such a ship's use has also changed a little in my mind, which resulted in the second mount.

It still follows the same mission, the gun is based on the historical 30.5cm/56 german gun that was tested, but abandoned. With a sustained rate of fire of 2 rld/min, it'll unload 3000 rounds 4.17 hours. Assuming an 8 hour replenishment cycle, a number with no basis, that'll be roughly 6000 rounds in 17 hours. Not ideal, but still quite high. I only added the second mount because I realized the volume of fire for a series of fire missions was far too low. Ideally I wanted at least 9 guns with 2000 round magazines, but the penalty was too high.

The range was drastically cut, from 8000nm to 4000nm. This is followed from the change in doctrine in my mind from a low value/volume battlegroup based on endurance to a high value/volume battlegroup based on dashes and forced entry which implies UNREP.

These, the low endurance & light HE shells, make it unsuitable for the roles traditionally taken by "pocket" battleships. In a sense it is also what it says in the class description: an A2/AD ship. It has quite respectable AA capability, although not as amazing as previous renditions, and decent (land) area-denial. A pocket battleship, I would think, would sacrifice this A2/AD capability which is a liability for much more lethal guns and much more endurance at speed. As it is though, it would not function well in the pocket battleship role at all.

Logi

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27

Friday, May 2nd 2014, 9:16am

Here is a version with a tonnage reduction to 10,000 tons light (vs 12,514 tons light previously). In exchange, 2 barrels are gained for the loss of 6 kts on max speed. There are only minor tweaks, but that's the largest difference.

I'm not to certain on the speed reduction. Although it does fit in with the new doctrine I have in mind, there is now a much greater potential risk to the ship from conventional forces.
Side-Note: The lower speed and higher firepower makes it look even more like a pocket battleship, but as I've said, that's only a superficial similarity.

Quoted

CL-02, A2/AD Cruiser laid down 1945

Displacement:
10,000 t light; 11,678 t standard; 12,184 t normal; 12,589 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
547.90 ft / 524.93 ft x 75.46 ft x 21.33 ft (normal load)
167.00 m / 160.00 m x 23.00 m x 6.50 m

Armament:
8 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (2x4 guns), 551.16lbs / 250.00kg shells, 1945 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (8x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1945 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1945 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 0.91" / 23.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.37lbs / 0.17kg shells, 1945 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4,994 lbs / 2,265 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 500

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 360.89 ft / 110.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 51,967 shp / 38,768 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 911 tons

Complement:
579 - 753

Cost:
£9.220 million / $36.879 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 953 tons, 7.8 %
Armour: 2,052 tons, 16.8 %
- Belts: 714 tons, 5.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 289 tons, 2.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,004 tons, 8.2 %
- Conning Tower: 45 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,312 tons, 10.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,378 tons, 44.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,184 tons, 17.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 305 tons, 2.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13,139 lbs / 5,960 Kg = 15.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.505
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.96 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.95 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 45.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Stern: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Average freeboard: 18.75 ft / 5.72 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 165.9 %
Waterplane Area: 27,570 Square feet or 2,561 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 140 lbs/sq ft or 682 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.79
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Total: 305t
- 100 tons for Electronic Suite
- 25 tons for Electronic Fire-Control on 305mm, 100mm, and 57mm guns
- 50 tons for Communications
- 60 tons for Combat Management Center
- 25 tons for Surface and Air Search Radars (2 radars)
- 10 tons for Air Search Radar (1 radar)
- 4 tons for Navigational Surface and Air Search Radar (2 radars)
- 12 tons for Fire-Control Radar (3 radars)
- 6 tons for Height-finding Radar (1 radar)
- 5 tons for forward Voith-Schneider maneuvering system
- 8 tons for Rocket Artillery & Support (~21 cm NbW42 for Short Range / High Volume work)

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