WesWorld

Here's a question for you:

I'm playing Bharat, which sometimes sells warships to China and Mexico.

I'm playing Iberia, which would prefer that nobody sells warships to China and Mexico.

The thought's crossed my mind that an aggressive Iberian policy decision might be to buy up particularly dangerous surplus stuff (Bharati or otherwise) that might go to China or Mexico, then scrap it. If that stuff does happen to be Bharati, I'm opening myself up to a conflict of interest as one of my nations funnels cash to the other in return for junk. So, questions:

A) In theory, does the Iberian buy-out model make sense as policy, whether applied to Bharati surplus or anybody else that might sell to Iberia's enemies?

B) Could the Iberian policy be implemented with somebody else acting as a proxy for Iberia when it comes to Bharati surplus?

Thoughts?

Quoted

A) In theory, does the Iberian buy-out model make sense as policy, whether applied to Bharati surplus or anybody else that might sell to Iberia's enemies?

If someone were to put something particularly dangerous (to Iberia) on the market, Iberia putting in a bid to forestall the sale is a viable strategy. Of course, the seller may choose to ignore a higher Iberian bid should he want to twist Iberia's tail in the bargain. In fact, I believe that it has been done a time or two. So, as a strategy, it makes some sense to pursue.

Quoted

B) Could the Iberian policy be implemented with somebody else acting as a proxy for Iberia when it comes to Bharati surplus?

Could it be implemented? Certainly it could; whether it really gets around the conflict of interest issue is another thing. If anything else, it might act to increase the amount of tonnage shifted from Iberia to Bharat. Finding someone to shill for Iberia (someone who could be trusted...) is another thorny problem. My personal policy has been to avoid the appearance of such even if it means scrapping ships I would rather sell at a higher return.

I might be able to play one party for the neutral bidding process.

I've sold ships to myself before, I have no problems with it OOC (now IC... thats another story). Question is, is Bharat in good enough terms with Iberia? After all Italy/Neatherlands and Bharat dont really see eye to eye and Iberia was an ally of both just very recently.

Even if i'm playing one of the country, my opinion isn't influenced, it would be the same if i would play another country.

All this is an old problem ..... namely that we think much to modern. So pull back time ...... Imagine something....

We have an independent Bharat, which is/was an ally with China ..... Would they really doing such a step ? Selling none ships more to China, even if they are on war with another country ??? Guys ... be realistic ..... Bharat would not care about the opinion of others and would sell the ships, no matter to whom.

Back to reality ...

We have a player .... Rocky .... doing a great job in playing two countrys .... with modern thinking ....his dispute is understandable. IMHO it would be a pity if we put on one side so much value on things that they are realistic or have to be nearly realistic, on the other hand, realistic action is a foreign word.

When in doubt, do not to sell to China or Mexico. Problem solved.

This is me recognizing that if I saw a large nation buying up crap from a small nation, I'd be suspicious of the player's motivation. On occasion, I already have been. Therefore, I have to acknowledge that - while I think Iberia's motivation to keep stuff away from China/Mexico is legit, and while I think Bharat's motivation to get the most cash for its surplus is legit - the two could converge in a way that looks shady to other players. I would rather eliminate the possibility of that conflict of interest, and the out-of-character animosity that could accompany it, right from the start.

Now, on the issue of being "too modern", consider the following:

Recognize that Bharat's foreign policy is shifting. Bharat's going isolationist. The ties to SATSUMA have been cut, there's no involvement in the big international sporting events. The only strong international linkages are with Persia, Hedjaz, and South Africa. What does that mean?

For a start, it permits a less hostile relationship between Bharat and Iberia. Iberia and Bharat were not in direct conflict through the SATSUMA/AEGIS rivalry; there were no overlapping territorial claims. They were in indirect conflict because Bharat had allied with the Chinese and Iberia had allied with the Dutch, and there was the issue with Bharat fighting the Danes and Siamese back in the twenties. It should mean that Bharat is prepared to sell surplus to Iberia if it's worth the cash - the odds of having to sink that surplus another time are relatively low. It should also mean that Iberia is less reluctant to transfer wealth to Bharat if doing so weakens Iberia's actual rivals.

The shift also means there is less imperative for Bharat to sell solely to China or Mexico. Selling to Mexico made sense in the SATSUMA era because it created a headache for AEGIS. Selling to China in the SATSUMA era made sense because there was a common anti-colonialist objective. Post-SATSUMA, those rationales aren't there. Bolstering Mexican security has no obvious pay-off, and China might well evolve into a regional rival. It doesn't mean Bharat won't sell to them - but it does mean that the motivation is now, "what deal benefits Bharat the most?" rather than "What benefits the SATSUMA cause the most". In most cases, that will come down to who offers the most cash.

Well said Rocky.

Looking back over time, players years ago seemed to trade ships left and right; now, some of us prefer to consider a nation's long-term goals and act accordingly, or look at what responsible nations would do. Part of that is taking into account foreign and domestic policy shifts in one's own countries and in other countries. Some shifts will have a positive effect on the second-hand market, some will have a negative effect.

Have to agree, well said and explained. If this is the reason behind the behavior of Bharat ("what's the best for Bharat"), it make things clear.

Even though I have my doubts with the creation / evolve China as a regional rival. First, Bharat is focused on the Indic Ocean and China has only the East China and the South China Sea (long way to travel for China to enter the Indic) and second the common border is well secured with the Himalaya mountains. Or is Burma, Thailand and the other countries in that area in the focus of Bharat ???

They're close enough to warrant interest, of course, and I mean that in a non-proprietary way.

You have to remember that it is not all high mountains between China and India. About half of OTL Burma is part of India here as well as part of Pakistan which makes the Wesworld China-India border longer than OTL.

It is not all +7000m there. More like around 5000m which is a bit easier to get past. The eastern border has even lower mountains making it a lot easier for China's troops to sneak across the border there.

And I do remember not long ago that Chinese mountain troops were holding exercises in Yunnan not far from the India/Burma frontier. And further back there were rumblings of problems between India and China - though I think that may have been stage-managed.

Well if they are properly trained, those troops might even risk going through the higher western mountains... I think that the common border is anything but secured.

Another question is the level of threat. Two Samal class BCs are significant enough, that Iberia might feel inclined to take action. But would say 8 destroyers be at the same level as to require Iberia's attention?

Sounds like you really want to get your hands on them to increase your DD collection...

One has to think of the posibility of an additional 64 torpedoes that can be fired upon your vessels, so yes, I would think that Iberia might take action to prevent that from happening...

... but I could be wrong...

Quoted from "Desertfox"

Another question is the level of threat. Two Samal class BCs are significant enough, that Iberia might feel inclined to take action. But would say 8 destroyers be at the same level as to require Iberia's attention?

Probably not, but that's not necessarily the same as no attention.

Gotta collect them all! What's 64 more torpedoes when I can already dump over 1,000 torpedoes at once... :p

FOXY DUMPS ONE THOUSAND TORPEDOES. IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE!

The United States feels that Mexico should stop wasting its tonnage on silly destroyers rusting away in the Caribbean and donate its tonnage to a worthy charity; the US Naval Budget.

But, but... how am I supposed to get to Cuba otherwise?