WesWorld

Ceara, Empire of Brazil Heavy Cruiser laid down 1944

Displacement:
12,279 t light; 12,807 t standard; 14,310 t normal; 15,513 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
625.29 ft / 620.00 ft x 68.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
190.59 m / 188.98 m x 20.73 m x 7.32 m

Armament:
10 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (5x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1944 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 3 raised mounts
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (8x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1944 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
20 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,433 lbs / 1,557 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 380.00 ft / 115.82 m 9.90 ft / 3.02 m
Ends: 3.50" / 89 mm 80.00 ft / 24.38 m 9.90 ft / 3.02 m
160.00 ft / 48.77 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 20.99 ft / 6.40 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm

- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 104,368 shp / 77,859 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 4,800nm at 21.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,706 tons

Complement:
653 - 850

Cost:
£7.826 million / $31.305 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 429 tons, 3.0 %
Armour: 3,277 tons, 22.9 %
- Belts: 899 tons, 6.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 637 tons, 4.5 %
- Armament: 655 tons, 4.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,035 tons, 7.2 %
- Conning Tower: 51 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,665 tons, 18.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,757 tons, 40.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,032 tons, 14.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,204 lbs / 9,164 Kg = 78.9 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 3.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.11

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.495
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.12 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.90 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m (22.00 ft / 6.71 m before break)
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 22.88 ft / 6.97 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 120.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.3 %
Waterplane Area: 27,963 Square feet or 2,598 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 125 lbs/sq ft or 613 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.57
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent



She fits the 4800nmi @ 21 knt requirement, and has 5x2 8in guns. better AA than the Mogami and Cleveland. Armored like Cleveland, with main armament comparable to Mogami.

However, the belt does not fully cover the magazines and engineering spaces; this is a vulnerability. I suggest that you consider three triple 8in gun turrets, which may conserve weight in armor for the armament which can be applied to armor for the magazines etc.

While single 20mm mounts can be stuck anywhere, I think you may be actually carrying more than you need - consider a smaller number of twin mounts.

Ceara, Empire of Brazil Heavy Cruiser laid down 1944

Displacement:
12,279 t light; 12,807 t standard; 14,310 t normal; 15,513 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
625.29 ft / 620.00 ft x 68.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
190.59 m / 188.98 m x 20.73 m x 7.32 m

Armament:
10 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (5x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1944 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 3 raised mounts
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (8x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1944 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
16 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,432 lbs / 1,557 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 380.00 ft / 115.82 m 9.90 ft / 3.02 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 105.00 ft / 32.00 m 9.90 ft / 3.02 m
135.00 ft / 41.15 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 410.00 ft / 124.97 m 20.99 ft / 6.40 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm

- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 104,368 shp / 77,859 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 4,800nm at 21.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,706 tons

Complement:
653 - 850

Cost:
£7.826 million / $31.302 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 429 tons, 3.0 %
Armour: 3,290 tons, 23.0 %
- Belts: 912 tons, 6.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 637 tons, 4.5 %
- Armament: 655 tons, 4.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,035 tons, 7.2 %
- Conning Tower: 51 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,665 tons, 18.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,745 tons, 40.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,032 tons, 14.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,160 lbs / 9,144 Kg = 78.7 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 3.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.11

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.495
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.12 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.90 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m (22.00 ft / 6.71 m before break)
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 22.88 ft / 6.97 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 120.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.3 %
Waterplane Area: 27,963 Square feet or 2,598 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 125 lbs/sq ft or 611 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.56
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent


didn't change the turret arrangement. lengthened the end belt and reduced it's thickness. (it was unlikely to stop serious rounds anyway)

I would seriously look at using triple turrets. You might as well have three triple or go for four triples and save weight in extra turrets and armour and magazines. You want less not more turrets. Also frees up deckspace too.
I'd reduce the end belt to 1.5in or 1in, enough to stop splinters but not too thick as to be wasteful.
Also, you would be better with a flush deck rather than a quarterdeck only 2 foot lower than the main deck, the heights of the decks otherwise look ok. I guess its an entry error (you have to be careful in SS which heights you put in which boxes otherwise it assumes its a step). For rule of thumb, a deck should be around 8ft high, perhaps 7ft for a destroyer etc.

I don't know how good your drawings skills are, but perhaps try and sketch up some of these designs, or use Alt Naval's Drawing tool (Hey guys is it still linked on the new forum since it used to have its own tab?) to visualise these ships. Sometimes its easy to look at real photos and use rule of thumb to squeeze stuff in, but when you actually try to draw things you realise all kinds of snags with the hull layout and spacing. With complex ships its an idea to sketch and springharp at the same time to evolve the design as you go.

Typically one doesn't include a torpedo bulkhead on a ship of this size (I've seen it suggested that a beam of at least 25m is required to warrant the inclusion - so capital ships). A significant portion of the ship's beam is lost to the multiple layers of the torpedo-defence system, on a hull that would be lucky to survive a couple of torpedos anyway.

Including the bulkhead means your internal stuff - the engines and magazines - get squished laterally, but extend further fore and aft, requiring a longer belt to protect them from gunfire. Note that with the bulkhead as fitted, your "Space - hull below water" near the bottom of the report is 120%. If you delete the bulkhead, you'll probably find that figure slips to around 100% while also increasing the hull strength. That, in turn, will make it easier for you to fix the belt length problem others have noted.

On the main battery - five twins is okay, but consider sitting with a Mogami or Atago layout with only two superfiring turrets.

On the AA battery - I think four secondaries on each beam would be a tight squeeze; scale it down to three and you're still comparable to other cruisers of the era.

Ceara, Empire of Brazil Heavy Cruiser laid down 1944

Displacement:
12,293 t light; 12,807 t standard; 14,310 t normal; 15,513 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
625.29 ft / 620.00 ft x 68.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
190.59 m / 188.98 m x 20.73 m x 7.32 m

Armament:
10 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (5x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1944 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (6x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1944 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
32 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
16 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,246 lbs / 1,472 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 9.90 ft / 3.02 m
Ends: 1.00" / 25 mm 105.00 ft / 32.00 m 9.90 ft / 3.02 m
155.00 ft / 47.24 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 89 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm - 1.00" / 25 mm

- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 111,151 shp / 82,919 Kw = 32.50 kts
Range 4,800nm at 21.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,706 tons

Complement:
653 - 850

Cost:
£7.861 million / $31.442 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 406 tons, 2.8 %
Armour: 2,765 tons, 19.3 %
- Belts: 953 tons, 6.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 727 tons, 5.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,035 tons, 7.2 %
- Conning Tower: 51 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,838 tons, 19.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,133 tons, 42.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,017 tons, 14.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,794 lbs / 9,432 Kg = 81.2 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.86
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.38

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.495
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.12 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.90 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Mid (50 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (26.00 ft / 7.92 m before break)
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 25.66 ft / 7.82 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 173.5 %
Waterplane Area: 27,963 Square feet or 2,598 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 121 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 125 lbs/sq ft or 609 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.27
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

hello. I have removed the torpedo belt and was surprised at the effect it had. I probably could have added another double turret, but I am not a fan of 6x2 arrangements. better to have a 4x3. I am okay with a 5x2 arrangement though I played around with the idea of a 2x3 + 2x2 arrangement. didn't like the idea of two unique turret types.

Quoted from "Alias72"

I am okay with a 5x2 arrangement though I played around with the idea of a 2x3 + 2x2 arrangement. didn't like the idea of two unique turret types.

I did a pair of ships with that armament style for the French Navy - the Redoubtable-class cruisers. I invented an in-character justification for the armament choices, theorizing that the French were re-using some guns and turrets originally earmarked for another canceled project. ;) I did it mostly for novelty.

Cruisers can have either a TDS or a main belt that protects everything, not both. Only when you approach 20,000 tons does that happen...

Here is a case in which I think you could benefit from a transom stern to obtain the desired characteristics on a lighter displacement.

It's rather strange in any case to put a TDS on a 14kton cruiser. That would be around the tonnage range of the Baltimore and Brooklyn class heavy cruisers. The cost of a TDS is very high so generally they're not cost-effective until past the 20kton range.

I would recommend a 2x3 + 2x2 turret arrangement. For one, it would allow you to lower the weight and deck space requirements of the armament whilst keeping the VCG minimum. The other benefit would be much better firing arcs for your ship, which is generally one of the most important features for a cruiser.

I feel the metacentric height is a bit low, but that's personal preference.
I also feel like you could get some strength by shortening the ship slightly, accompanied by the move from 5x2 to 2x3+2x2.

Quoted from "Logi"

I feel the metacentric height is a bit low, but that's personal preference.
I also feel like you could get some strength by shortening the ship slightly, accompanied by the move from 5x2 to 2x3+2x2.

That is one of the benefits of triple vice twin turrets - to get good firing arcs it demands the vessel be lengthened, which has an impact on the infrastructure needed to construct the vessel in terms of our rules and conventions.

I like the Mogami turret arrangement and its one the Brazilians have used before on their light cruisers, I would keep it for flavor. However, do ditch the TDS, Ive heard that it is actually worse to have it on any ship with less than 80ft beam.

Quoted from "Desertfox"

However, do ditch the TDS, Ive heard that it is actually worse to have it on any ship with less than 80ft beam.

Right. To explain, TDS only works if you have adequate void spaces between the outer section and the inner section. If the two sections are too close, then the detonation of the torpedo will penetrate both the void space and the inner bulkhead.

I have removed the torpedo bulkhead. look at it's tonnage. it was only listed because I didn't zero the dimensions as I felt that was unnecessary. thank you for all the information on torpedo belts, it i greatly appreciated.

If Brazil is thinking about large surface combatants, how about a design that would overawe most Treaty cruisers.

TBD, Brazil Armored Cruiser laid down 1944

Displacement: 12,990 t light; 13,841 t standard; 15,591 t normal; 16,991 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

609.18 ft / 597.11 ft x 70.54 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load) [185.68 m / 182.00 m x 21.50 m x 7.00 m]

Armament:

6 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (3x2 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.81kg shells, 1944 Model Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes) on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (6x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1944 Model Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists on side, evenly spread
24 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (6x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1944 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,689 lbs / 2,127 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
8 - 21.0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:

Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

Armour deck: 3.54" / 90 mm, Conning tower: 3.54" / 90 mm

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion motors, Geared drive, 4 shafts, 77,575 shp / 57,871 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 9,500nm at 17.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,150 tons

Complement: 696 - 906

Cost: £8.236 million / $32.945 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 586 tons, 3.8 %
Armour: 4,085 tons, 26.2 %
- Belts: 1,290 tons, 8.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 714 tons, 4.6 %
- Armour Deck: 2,033 tons, 13.0 %
- Conning Tower: 48 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,981 tons, 12.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,138 tons, 39.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,601 tons, 16.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 1.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 24,651 lbs / 11,182 Kg = 36.8 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.15

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.564
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.47 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.05 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 22.51 ft / 6.86 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.4 %
Waterplane Area: 31,020 Square feet or 2,882 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 121 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 131 lbs/sq ft or 640 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.70
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent