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Pocket BB speed

Jefgte

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Tuesday, October 15th 2013, 10:46am

Pocket BB speed

Your opinion is interresting :)

What is the minimum WW speed for a pocket BB to have enough tactical margin vs 32-33 kts CLs - CAs & 35-36 kts DDs.

24-27-30kts ???

Jef ;)

HoOmAn

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Tuesday, October 15th 2013, 10:49am

If the speed of your PBB is _lower_ than that of CL etc. there is no "tactical margin". The faster ship defines when, where and range.

Jefgte

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Tuesday, October 15th 2013, 10:59am

Range is not a problem, PBB had bigger guns than CL & CA.

:)

HoOmAn

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Tuesday, October 15th 2013, 11:52am

I disagree. The ship with the higher speed defines range if the speed advanage is high enough (3+kn). So the faster, lighter ships can get close enough to hole the PBB's armour. I question the capability of the big guns to scare those CL away or destroy them before they close in.

Jefgte

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Tuesday, October 15th 2013, 12:22pm

The question is about the speed.
Graf Spee armament could be the reference but protection is better (belt 150 to 200mm).

;)

HoOmAn

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Tuesday, October 15th 2013, 12:58pm

I don't get your point, then.

The faster ship has a "tactical margin" (that's what you called it) over the slower ship. So if the cruiser is doing 32kn and the PBB a max of 28kn - then the cruiser has a tactical margin over the slower vessel and can dictate conditions of fight.

So if your PBB should have a tactical margin over a 32kn CL or a 34kn CA it needs to have a speed of 37+kn.

Jefgte

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Tuesday, October 15th 2013, 1:51pm

Quoted

...the cruiser has a tactical margin over the slower vessel and can dictate conditions of fight.


The Cruiser is always under the fire of the PBB.
10x8"- 32kts vs 6x11"- 28kts

The only Cruiser advantage is the rapid turns-charge.
That is not condition of fire.

11" are master & 8" slave

;)

parador

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Tuesday, October 15th 2013, 2:54pm

It also depends on the type of engines .... diesels or turbines !!!

Quoted

Langsdorf realised too late that he was facing three cruisers. Calling upon the immediate acceleration of his diesel engines, he closed the enemy squadron at 24 kn (28 mph; 44 km/h) in the hope of engaging the steam-driven British ships before they could work up from cruising speed to full power.[7] This strategy may seem an inexplicable blunder. Langsdorf could perhaps have manoeuvered to keep the British ships at a range where he could destroy them with his 11 in (280 mm) guns while remaining out of the effective range of their smaller 6- and 8-inch guns. On the other hand, he knew the British cruisers had a 46 kn (4.66.9 mph; 7.411 km/h) speed advantage over Graf Spee and could in principle stay out of range should they choose to do sostandard cruiser tactics in the presence of a superior forcewhile calling on reinforcements.

from wikipedia


I would bet on the cruiser and not the PBB ;)

Rooijen10

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Tuesday, October 15th 2013, 3:30pm

46 knots speed advantage? You're knuts. :D

Jefgte

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Tuesday, October 15th 2013, 3:30pm

Graf Spee is the historical ref.
But we are in WW, & some choices are not similar...

:)

BruceDuncan

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Tuesday, October 15th 2013, 3:35pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10
46 knots speed advantage? You're knuts. :D


Quoted

On the other hand, he knew the British cruisers had a 46 kn (4.66.9 mph; 7.411 km/h) speed advantage over Graf Spee and could in principle stay out of range should they choose to do sostandard cruiser tactics in the presence of a superior forcewhile calling on reinforcements.


No, merely a victim of the board's poor handling of punctuation. For some reason the board now suppresses a lot of punctuation marks unless you take a side-road through something like notepad. Don't know why but it works that way.

parador

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Tuesday, October 15th 2013, 3:45pm

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10
46 knots speed advantage? You're knuts. :D


Quoted

On the other hand, he knew the British cruisers had a 46 kn (4.66.9 mph; 7.411 km/h) speed advantage over Graf Spee and could in principle stay out of range should they choose to do sostandard cruiser tactics in the presence of a superior forcewhile calling on reinforcements.


No, merely a victim of the board's poor handling of punctuation. For some reason the board now suppresses a lot of punctuation marks unless you take a side-road through something like notepad. Don't know why but it works that way.



Yes !!!! :(

Delete "46 kn" set "4 - 6 kn"
Delete "4.66.9 mph" set "4.6 - 6.9 mph"
Delete "7.411 km/h" set "7.4 - 11 km/h"

Tried also notepad ... didn't work :( ... it look like "copy-paste" didn't work right here in this case

parador

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Tuesday, October 15th 2013, 3:48pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Jefgte
Graf Spee is the historical ref.
But we are in WW, & some choices are not similar...

:)


Sure Graf Spee is a historical ref ... but you can't disown reality ... i mean speed is an essential advantage in a battle !!!!

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "parador" (Oct 15th 2013, 3:49pm)

snip

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Tuesday, October 15th 2013, 3:48pm

I think any such ship along these lines has to be faster then 34knts, but seeing as there are cruisers that posses that sort of speed it becomes very difficult to keep such a ship small. Also, no ship can outrun a plane.
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
-Siegfried Sassoon

HoOmAn

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Tuesday, October 15th 2013, 5:00pm

Nor a shell...

Jefgte

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Wednesday, October 16th 2013, 10:17am

my choice: 32kts

:)

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Jefgte" (Oct 21st 2013, 1:32pm)

Hood

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Wednesday, October 16th 2013, 3:03pm

The whole concept of the "pocket" battleship is flawed unless you haven't got the resources to build a proper capital ship (like Peru in WW).
The Graf Spee was a commerce raider, a glorified fast coastal defence ship with the range to make commerce raiding possible. Had Weimar Germany not been so constrained by restrictions it is possible they might have built something like the Scharnhosts from the beginning (as France did with the Dunkerques). Even the Scharnhosts were seriously hampered by 11in guns against real opposition as opposed to escort convoys.

In a WW with several big 9x8 and 10in Super-CAs what you really want is to join the Super CA club, more or less the WW equivalent to the 1930's pocket battleship fad.

Jefgte

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Wednesday, October 16th 2013, 3:35pm

I didnt built Graf Spee or Scharnhorst.
Commerce raider is not interresting for Peru.

I have the choice in my 21 studies...

http://www.phpbbplanet.com/warshipprojec…warshipprojects

Jef ;)

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Jefgte" (Oct 16th 2013, 3:36pm)