WesWorld

Several things on the agenda.

• Replacement of the Soldati class destroyers as fleet units. Construction should be started now to allow for phase out in 1945. The Soldati's fate will be decided then.
  
• New class of ocean-going subs. These will most likely be replacements for the Antonio Sciesa class.
  
• New class of escort. These will most likely be additions to the fleet, not replacement ships.
  
• Begin Reconstruction of Aircraft Carrier Europa in preparation for Francesco Morosini leaving active service in 1945.
  
• Continue modernization of the cruiser force
  

Refit of the San Pietro, San Sylvestro & San Gregorio Magno
Cost: 6660 tons per ship
Time: 11.16 months per ship (Just under four quarters)
Modifications: Replacement of Anti-Aircraft batteries with modern 76mm, 37mm, and 25mm weaponry. Addition of modern electronic sensors and other miscellaneous equipment. Removal of floatplane facilities. New 86,000SHP engines lighter then the originals. New horizontal and vertical protection layout. New bow for improved seakeeping.

San Pietro (refit), Italian Armored Cruiser laid down 1933 (Engine 1944)

Displacement:
13,320 t light; 13,990 t standard; 16,585 t normal; 18,661 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
639.76 ft / 623.36 ft x 65.62 ft (Bulges 75.69 ft) x 24.61 ft (normal load)
195.00 m / 190.00 m x 20.00 m (Bulges 23.07 m) x 7.50 m

Armament:
12 - 7.99" / 203 mm guns (4x3 guns), 291.01lbs / 132.00kg shells, 1933 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 2.99" / 76.0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 14.86lbs / 6.74kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
12 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1944 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3,814 lbs / 1,730 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 155

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 385.50 ft / 117.50 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.57" / 40 mm 305.12 ft / 93.00 m 32.81 ft / 10.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.48" / 190 mm 4.92" / 125 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3.54" / 90 mm, Conning tower: 2.76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 86,000 shp / 64,156 Kw = 30.87 kts
Range 9,500nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,671 tons

Complement:
729 - 949

Cost:
£5.349 million / $21.397 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 426 tons, 2.6 %
Armour: 4,425 tons, 26.7 %
- Belts: 1,102 tons, 6.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 583 tons, 3.5 %
- Armament: 843 tons, 5.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,858 tons, 11.2 %
- Conning Tower: 39 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,196 tons, 13.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,948 tons, 35.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,265 tons, 19.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 325 tons, 2.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,052 lbs / 11,817 Kg = 102.1 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 4.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.24 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.95 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 23.50 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.18 ft / 9.20 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.98 ft / 6.70 m
- Mid (60 %): 21.98 ft / 6.70 m (13.78 ft / 4.20 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Stern: 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Average freeboard: 19.36 ft / 5.90 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.5 %
Waterplane Area: 28,340 Square feet or 2,633 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 132 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 637 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

The replacement for the Soldati class. Twelve ships named after famous Genoan and Venetian Admirals. In no real order...

Agostino Barbarigo, Andrea Dandolo, Lamba Doria, Guglielmo Grasso, Sebastiano Venier, Simone Doria, Carlo Zeno, Biagio Assereto, Benedetto I Zaccaria, Lorenzo Marcello, Angelo Emo, Antonio Grimani

Admiral Class, Italian Destroyer laid down 1944

Displacement:
2,700 t light; 2,889 t standard; 3,318 t normal; 3,661 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
459.31 ft / 447.67 ft x 42.65 ft x 14.76 ft (normal load)
140.00 m / 136.45 m x 13.00 m x 4.50 m

Armament:
5 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 99.21lbs / 45.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.65lbs / 0.75kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.53lbs / 0.24kg shells, 1944 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 527 lbs / 239 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 400
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Conning tower: 2.76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 54,000 shp / 40,284 Kw = 34.69 kts
Range 4,000nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 773 tons

Complement:
218 - 284

Cost:
£2.299 million / $9.194 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 71 tons, 2.1 %
Armour: 53 tons, 1.6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 40 tons, 1.2 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 13 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,342 tons, 40.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,014 tons, 30.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 618 tons, 18.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 220 tons, 6.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,209 lbs / 548 Kg = 11.3 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 13.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.16

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.412
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.33 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Stern: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Average freeboard: 17.81 ft / 5.43 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 156.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117.0 %
Waterplane Area: 12,289 Square feet or 1,142 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 92 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 44 lbs/sq ft or 216 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.53
- Longitudinal: 1.59
- Overall: 0.59
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Additional item to add to this list. The Italian MAS fleet has grown somewhat outdated and needs to be modernized. [Note: I am assuming this based on the last dates on the ency posts made by RA, which show no new MAS added after about May of 2007] To that end, sometime in 1944 (Q2 or Q3) I will be starting production on three new classes of MAS boats based of historical designs. Note the WW designations will be different then historical, I have not desided how yet.

MAS-451: Cheep, fast and small while packing a punch with two tubes. 25t

MAS-552: The "Meat and Potatos" type. Larger hull helps with seaworthiness. Would likely also see some variants dedicated to various specialty tasks. 29.5t (will always be built in pairs to even out tonnage)

MS-11: The largest type, but also the hardest hitting. Will for sure have variants dedicated to special tasks. 63.5t (will always be built in pairs to even out tonnage)

If I am following the rules on light craft correctly, I can build 25 of the two larger designs or 50 of the smaller designs per quarter, so the distribution will most likely look something like this. 16 MAS-552 type, 4 MS-11 type, 10 MAS-451 type. This means a total of 976t a quarter on 30 MAS boats until the fleet is modernized and slightly expanded. Comments?

I don't see any advantages and many disadvantages to building three different types of vessels which do exactly the same thing.

The 25t boats can be produced en-mass very quickly (under our rules) as well as being smaller for operations in confined areas, while the 29.5t boats are going to handle much better and be overall more usable. The biggest ones lend themselves to being able to take on other tasks as well, but trade this for being almost 10knts slower. These are meant to replace the whole of the existing MAS fleet which is getting on 10+ game years old. Given that the existing boats cover a wider range of size and capabilities, so should there replacements. I think slimming down from 6-8 types to three is a good thing.

I didn't see anything regarding the slower speeds of the larger boats in there...

I still feel the 25t and 29.5t boats are really too close in size - you're not going to gain much on an increase of just 4.5 tons. I can see your rational for the 25-tonner and the 63.5-tonner, but not the 29.5-tonner... perhaps I need to see some specifications to understand your purpose, here. It just seems obscure and befuddling for what you've given so far.

Specs are the historic boats linked. As for both the 25 and 29.5 ton boats, I feel that the 29.5t offers more ability for not much more cost, but the difference under the game rules is an additional boat per quarter. I may just go to the 29.5t and the 63.5t options.

Ah... there are links. I see now. I'll have to wait to comment tomorrow, then, because I can't open those links on this computer.

I await your comments. Just thinking about what I would do with only the 29.5t and 63.5t opptions: 16 MAS-552, 9 MS-11.

Actualy, here let me post the stats so you can see. Quick and dirty with no formatting.

MAS-451
Délka maximální
(Length OA) 18m
¦íYka
(Beam) 4.78m
Ponor standard
(Draft) 1.56m
Výtlak
(Displacement) 25 t
Výzbroj
(Armament) 2 × TT 450mm
1 × 13.2mm
Pohon
(Propulsion) 2 × hlavní + 2 × pomocné, 2300+140 hp, 2 ¨rouby
Max. rychlost
(Speed) 42 uzlo (knots)
Dosah
(Range) 330 @ 42 uzlo (knots)
Posádka max.
(Crew) 11

MAS-552
Délka maximální
(Length OA) 18.7m
¦íYka
(Beam) 4.7m
Ponor standard
(Draft) 1.5m
Výtlak
(Displacement) 29.4 t
Výzbroj
(Armament) 2 × TT 450mm
1 × 20mm
1 × 6.6mm
Pohon
(Propulsion) 2 × hlavní + 2 × pomocné, 2300+140 hp, 2 ¨rouby
Max. rychlost
(Speed) 43 uzlo (knots)
Dosah
(Range) 395 @ 42 uzlo (knots)
Posádka max.
(Crew) 13

MS-11
Délka maximální
(Length OA) 28m
¦íYka
(Beam) 4.3m
Ponor standard
(Draft) 1.67m
Výtlak
(Displacement) 63.4 t
Výzbroj
(Armament) 2 × TT 533mm
1-2 × 20mm
2 × 6.6mm
Pohon
(Propulsion) 3 ×, 3300 hp, 3 ¨rouby
Max. rychlost
(Speed) 32 uzlo (knots)
Dosah
(Range) 220 @ 32 uzlo (knots)
Posádka max.
(Crew) 19

What I'm seeing of the specs definitely reinforces my opinion that the 25t and 29.5t boats represent an unnecessary duplication of design and construction efforts.

*escorts MAS-451 design into stasis tube marked Break Glass in Case of War and seals it.* Two types it is.

Your question about the block-obsolescence of the Italian MAS fleet got me thinking - when I started RA had enough MAS boats you could moor them end-to-end and walk across the Adriatic on their decks.

So I checked, and found something very odd:

From the Italy Q4/1940 Report:

Fleet Strength
BB. 7(1)+2
CV. 10(0)+1
ACR.6(0)+0
CA. 3(0)+0
CL. 24(0)+0
DD. 74(0)+4
TB. 33(0)+0
Submarines. a) 30(0)+4
b) 69(0)+0
Escorts. 83(0)+6
MAS. 370(0)+0

Then, from the Q1/1941 Italy Report

Fleet Strength
BB. 5(1)+2
CV. 10(0)+2
ACR.6(0)+0
CA. 0(3)+0
CL. 24(0)+0
DD. 68(10)+0
TB. 33(0)+0
Submarines. a) 34(0)+0
b) 69(0)+0
Escorts. 89(0)+6
MAS. 70(0)+0

Somehow, 300 MAS boats disappeared, and I cannot seem to find anything regarding their mass disposal. Alas, I did not notice it at the time.

Not that I mind the smaller number of small craft, but it you follow your scheme, you would replace the 70 craft currently noted in less than a year, and you would still have the problem of block-obsolescence for the future.

I could see some reason to construct the small 25-ton craft if you were actually replacing *370* MAS boats; if all you are going to do is replace *70*, go with the larger designs.

Personally though, any of the designs proposed would be inferior to many of the craft operated by your probable opponents.

Wait, how did 300 boats up and vanish? That is most odd. Will have to check and confirm but I dead sure I didn't scrap any. Im assuming a clerical error on my end. EDIT: After checking, this error exists in my first Italian report and has carried though. I must have miss typed it initially and it has purveyed since. I will ensure this is fixed when I go though and make sure the OOB in the reports mirrors the ency for the Q2/44 report.

Quoted

still have the problem of block-obsolescence for the future.

Its more an issue right now of that no new ones have been built in about 8 game years.

Quoted

Personally though, any of the designs proposed would be inferior to many of the craft operated by your probable opponents.

These were the "best" historical designs I could find. What sort of boats would you recommend?

If there is a clerical error, it was Red Admiral's; both reports are his. And I do suspect a clerical error.

The question of what designs to build depends on what sort of missions you expect the craft to fulfill? Answer that question and it defines what you want to build.

Do you expect them to take on enemy coastal forces head on? If so, they are out-gunned by French and Yugoslav designs by a wide margin and they will be eaten for breakfast.

Do you expect swarms of them to defend your own shores against attack? What sort of attack?

Will they operate under friendly air cover or are they expected to operate beyond its range? MTBs are particularly vulnerable to air attack, a point well proven even in the Great War. Any vessel you construct is going to have to have decent defenses against air attack and that means growth in size.

I saw that the existing boats had not been touched since the mid 1930s. Long time for light units to go unserviced. Other then that, I have no idea what I want.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
Do you expect them to take on enemy coastal forces head on? If so, they are out-gunned by French and Yugoslav designs by a wide margin and they will be eaten for breakfast.

Technically true in that the French MTBs are 160t light and carry a pair of 40mm guns... But I have significantly fewer vessels in service, as I've preferred to pursue quality over quantity in this regard.

On the one hand, the Dutch have just done a mass overhaul of their MAS 1000 boats and are still deciding on the 501s (?) but any opponent in DEI waters will not have their own MTBs in support, so the main consideration was the carnage to opposing LOC and beachheads that 450-odd MTBs could make- and the incredible hassle and time of stomping them out ...this is now offset by the diminishing of the threats.

I think for the Italians, the probable OPFORs are very important. You probably need 2 types of boats- one for Adriatic operations, and one for Med / EAS operations. The designed mission is also important- do you need MGBs or MTBs, or both ?

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
Do you expect them to take on enemy coastal forces head on? If so, they are out-gunned by French and Yugoslav designs by a wide margin and they will be eaten for breakfast.

Technically true in that the French MTBs are 160t light and carry a pair of 40mm guns... But I have significantly fewer vessels in service, as I've preferred to pursue quality over quantity in this regard.

Which I consider a far wiser course of action. It is for that reason that Yugoslavia has unburdened itself of the many small craft it did have, designed a larger MTB capable of defending itself while carrying the fight to the enemy and followed that with a small surface combatant intended to take on small MAS with advantage.

Just replacing old, useless craft with new, sub-optimal craft, makes little sense to me.

I can the Adriatic being the main playground for Italian MAS, and protecting the Italian Aegean islands.

I think there is a danger of making MTB/MGB too big and too heavily armed, the whole purpose is a striking platform. I think the German S-boot have warped WW thinking a little in that regard when nations like Britain and America built an array of types, some of which were quite weakly armed and of course Italy and Japan had smaller types. An ideal MTB is one that is expendable, any MTB of whatever size is a floating high-speed bomb. A larger boat is a more stable gun platform but is also a bigger target.