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I find it difficult to accept that such a small hull could carry two twin 105mm mounts on such a small beam. I realize that Springsharp might allow it; are there historical vessels of comparable size with such heavy armament?

In the spirit of bigger 200t, this class is not exactly what I want.

(Yes but SS allow this armament with 0.56 recoil.)

Deck arrangement is inspired from "la Jeune école" :

=> Hull with very light superstructures.

For Defender, I prefer 2x1x105 & increase misc weight to have better deck space & more diff material possibility.

always inf to 300t.

Jef

(Yes but SS allow this armament with 0.56 recoil.)

Deck arrangement is inspired from "la Jeune école" :

=> Hull with very light superstructures.

For Defender, I prefer 2x1x105 & increase misc weight to have better deck space & more diff material possibility.

always inf to 300t.

Jef

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Jefgte" (Sep 1st 2013, 3:57pm)

Displacement:

290 t light; 310 t standard; 355 t normal; 391 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

189.34 ft / 183.73 ft x 22.97 ft x 7.00 ft (normal load)

57.71 m / 56.00 m x 7.00 m x 2.14 m

Armament:

2 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1944 Model

Quick firing guns in deck mounts

on centreline, evenly spread

8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1944 Model

Machine guns in deck mounts

on side, evenly spread

Weight of broadside 74 lbs / 34 kg

Shells per gun, main battery: 300

3 - 17.7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion motors,

Geared drive, 2 shafts, 4 540 shp / 3 387 Kw = 24.03 kts

Range 3 000nm at 15.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 81 tons

Complement:

40 - 53

Cost:

£0.225 million / $0.899 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 9 tons, 2.6 %

Armour: 3 tons, 0.9 %

- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Armament: 3 tons, 0.9 %

- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Machinery: 110 tons, 31.1 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 101 tons, 28.6 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 65 tons, 18.4 %

Miscellaneous weights: 65 tons, 18.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

159 lbs / 72 Kg = 4.5 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.02

Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m

Roll period: 12.7 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.29

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck

and transom stern

Block coefficient: 0.420

Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 15.94 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 69 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):

- Stem: 15.42 ft / 4.70 m

- Forecastle (20 %): 12.14 ft / 3.70 m

- Mid (50 %): 8.53 ft / 2.60 m

- Quarterdeck (18 %): 8.20 ft / 2.50 m

- Stern: 8.20 ft / 2.50 m

- Average freeboard: 9.94 ft / 3.03 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 142.8 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 78.9 %

Waterplane Area: 2 731 Square feet or 254 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 20 lbs/sq ft or 97 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.50

- Longitudinal: 2.86

- Overall: 0.59

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped

Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

20t: Boom for minesweeping / trawling / salvage

10t ASDIC + 20 tons for 60DC

10t Radar

5t reserve

The above drawing shows a 200ts design used by the RSAN. It is armed with 2x 88mm, 2x 40mm and two 2cm cannons, no torps.

I think it might be possible to fit two 105mm guns, judging from the drawing alone, but the overall number of weapons might be an issue.

The RSAN also fields a 200ts with two 15cm guns, but it is a river monitor with little value anywhere else except on the calm waters of a river - and again the overall number of guns and mounts is much smaller.

Great Thanks to HoOmAn to give some possibilities.

Here is Chasser class, 200t - 50m - with 2TTx450

200t-Chasser Class, Peru MineSweeper-SubChasser-Escort laid down 1944

Displacement:

200 t light; 211 t standard; 225 t normal; 236 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

169.54 ft / 164.04 ft x 22.31 ft x 5.07 ft (normal load)

51.67 m / 50.00 m x 6.80 m x 1.55 m

Armament:

1 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1944 Model

Quick firing gun in deck mount

on centreline forward

4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1944 Model

Machine guns in deck mounts

on side, evenly spread

Weight of broadside 37 lbs / 17 kg

Shells per gun, main battery: 300

2 - 17.7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion motors,

Geared drive, 1 shaft, 1 660 shp / 1 238 Kw = 19.84 kts

Range 2 000nm at 12.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 25 tons

Complement:

28 - 37

Cost:

£0.113 million / $0.453 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 5 tons, 2.1 %

Armour: 2 tons, 0.7 %

- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Armament: 2 tons, 0.7 %

- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Machinery: 42 tons, 18.9 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 121 tons, 53.9 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 25 tons, 11.1 %

Miscellaneous weights: 30 tons, 13.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

457 lbs / 207 Kg = 12.9 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.03

Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m

Roll period: 12.5 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.18

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.27

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck

and transom stern

Block coefficient: 0.424

Length to Beam Ratio: 7.35 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 15.17 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):

- Stem: 15.09 ft / 4.60 m

- Forecastle (20 %): 11.81 ft / 3.60 m

- Mid (50 %): 8.53 ft / 2.60 m

- Quarterdeck (18 %): 7.87 ft / 2.40 m

- Stern: 7.87 ft / 2.40 m

- Average freeboard: 9.72 ft / 2.96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.7 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.3 %

Waterplane Area: 2 376 Square feet or 221 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 146 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 139 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.83

- Longitudinal: 5.26

- Overall: 1.00

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate

Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

10 tons Asdic +

20 tons Material for Mines chasser or 20 tons for 60 DC

Here is Chasser class, 200t - 50m - with 2TTx450

200t-Chasser Class, Peru MineSweeper-SubChasser-Escort laid down 1944

Displacement:

200 t light; 211 t standard; 225 t normal; 236 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

169.54 ft / 164.04 ft x 22.31 ft x 5.07 ft (normal load)

51.67 m / 50.00 m x 6.80 m x 1.55 m

Armament:

1 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1944 Model

Quick firing gun in deck mount

on centreline forward

4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1944 Model

Machine guns in deck mounts

on side, evenly spread

Weight of broadside 37 lbs / 17 kg

Shells per gun, main battery: 300

2 - 17.7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion motors,

Geared drive, 1 shaft, 1 660 shp / 1 238 Kw = 19.84 kts

Range 2 000nm at 12.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 25 tons

Complement:

28 - 37

Cost:

£0.113 million / $0.453 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 5 tons, 2.1 %

Armour: 2 tons, 0.7 %

- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Armament: 2 tons, 0.7 %

- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Machinery: 42 tons, 18.9 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 121 tons, 53.9 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 25 tons, 11.1 %

Miscellaneous weights: 30 tons, 13.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

457 lbs / 207 Kg = 12.9 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.03

Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m

Roll period: 12.5 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.18

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.27

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck

and transom stern

Block coefficient: 0.424

Length to Beam Ratio: 7.35 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 15.17 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):

- Stem: 15.09 ft / 4.60 m

- Forecastle (20 %): 11.81 ft / 3.60 m

- Mid (50 %): 8.53 ft / 2.60 m

- Quarterdeck (18 %): 7.87 ft / 2.40 m

- Stern: 7.87 ft / 2.40 m

- Average freeboard: 9.72 ft / 2.96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.7 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.3 %

Waterplane Area: 2 376 Square feet or 221 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 146 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 139 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.83

- Longitudinal: 5.26

- Overall: 1.00

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate

Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

10 tons Asdic +

20 tons Material for Mines chasser or 20 tons for 60 DC

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Jefgte" (Sep 2nd 2013, 12:15am)

## Quoted

Originally posted by snip

I still think that 105's are to large for this hull, going to something in the ~75mm range would be better IMO.

While I agree with you in principle, I can accept two single 105mm on a vessel this size far more easily than I can accept one with two twin 105mm guns. Personally I would confine myself to a single large gun forward, a mid-range LAA gun on the centerline aft and the light AA on the beam, but that is a personal preference thing.

The 290-ton design presented here is not necessarily the best design, but it is a minimally acceptable one IMHO.

## Quoted

Originally posted by Jefgte

Great Thanks to HoOmAn to give some possibilities.

Welcome, but I think you did not really capture my point. While I agree that single guns of a calibre up to 105mm might be okay, torpedos are a different thing.

The usual torpedo and torpedo tube is about 7m long, best guess. You also need some room to turn the thing. Now consider how much of your available deck space is consumed...

So either your design features fixed tubes (but you did not say so and I cannot see that on a ship the category you propose) or you a really in deep trouble regarding deck space given all the other stuff you need there - including free space to actually move the crew and maneouvre the vessel.

Any chance you can provide us a drawing showing the intended deck layout?

## Quoted

The usual torpedo and torpedo tube is about 7m long, best guess. You also need some room to turn the thing. Now consider how much of your available deck space is consumed...

Rapid estimation give:

Forecastle = 10m

105mm Gun plateform = 4m

Bridge = 4m

Stack = 2m (with 25mm AA platform side)

Torpedoe = 9m

25mm Gun Plateform =3m

Lifeboat = 7m (DC below)

Aft deck = 8m (with DC)

Total 48m for a 50m hull.

2m dispo for adjustments.

This is nearly the same family of 200t ship

http://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,4644.0.html

No problemo for deck place.

Jef

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