WesWorld

So, not back yet. Still pretty busy through this coming weekend. However this is something I had mostly thought out and was planning on opening for commentary and discussion.

Commentary desired J

Musings on the formation of the Confederation of Orange aka The United Kingdoms of the Netherlands
This is organized into several sections, so you can skip around as I tend to be overly windy.
-The Goal
-Preliminary historical work as foundation
-Moving forward
-Conclusion

The Goal :
My predecessor, RAM, expressed the long term goal of merging the Netherlands, Luxembourg and Belgium when he formed the Benelux trade association in&1922 (?).
When I took the reins in 1933, I backwrote the 1928-32 events, and collaborated with Hrolf & HooMan on Dutch/Belgian/German/SAE history. I wasnt allowed to alter the course of WWI events.
Ultimately, Id like to logically find a way to finish the integration process by the End of Game in 1950, in a political structure that allows the evolution to equality of the Dutch provinces as well.
To that end, I was thinking of turning the United Kingdoms of the Netherlands- currently more of a commonwealth  into a confederated /semi-federal situation. As previously indicated the total population of over 100million, and most strategic resources, so some real heft.
To that end&

Key points worked into the history were:
Doing research, I discovered Queen Wilhelmina was a formidable woman. Historically reported as the first female billionaire, her financial acumen was well known, she made use of her commander in chief hat and personally ordered a cruiser to rescue the Boer leader from under the noses of the British, hosted peace conferences, and ticked off the Entente by giving Wilhelm II an escape- which also resolved the crisis in Germany. Known for espousing in 1905 the Ethical policy in the DEI- which failed due to poor execution and funding  she generally she ruled well from behind the throne. Extremely popular at home, she used personal appearances to defuse an attempted communist coup and rally the country after the North Sea Storm. Given her real life background - she became my foil for many things.

1) The 1898 constitutional change did not occur quite as historical. Not quite sure what is the exact result, but the Queen is very much involved.

2) Instead of the Belgian state reluctantly taking over the Kongo from King Leopold, Queen Wilhelmina stepped up to the plate and committed her Household troops and personal wealth to saving the Kongo, forcibly evicting the brutal Force Publique. Her personal connections with SAE led to SANTA and the Dutch and SAE capitalization of the Kongo- whose mineral wealth has well rewarded both. Rubber and quinine trees were introduced, and rail infrastructure is advanced. Political structure has been designed to capture and evolve from tribal values by first introducing a feudal structure  complete with trials by combat and melee- , then broad based education, and then a path to voting leading to a House of Lords/House of Commons implementation.

3) The Ethical Policy was more successful and has been followed by the TIDE program, leading to limited elections. The # of factories allocated to DEI is equivalent per capita to Bahrat. The DEI has been broken into 7 provinces to minimize pan-archipelago nationalism. The communist and nationalist movements both had revolts in the mid1930s which both antagonized locals and led to the TIDE program. After the Sons of India shot the Queen while she was doing the ribbon cutting of a new public University, Rockys Bahrat ceased its funding for such groups. As such the DEI is a more developed and Europeanized area than historical.

4) One conundrum I had was that in WWI, Bahrat had threatened Britain, and had been redirected, and given a free hand in the Andaman Islands- which they seized from the Dutch. However RAMs OOB showed the Dutch had Capital ships not committed- why? The answer was the historic blockade of the Neutral Netherlands by the allies on the pretext of their being the Port of Germany. How that also explained the seizure of Dutch shipping on high seas I know not. But it certainly didnt lead to fond feelings, especially as food supplies ran low. However, such a blockade would explain why the Dutch capital ships did not intervene in DEI, and why Bahrat could seize the Andamans. This made proposing the Malaysia-DEI-Australian alliance that led to SAER a bitter pill to swallow, but it had been 20 years and it was necessary.

5) Hrolf I were not allowed to change the course of WWI, which was at that time not specified, but widely acknowledged to not have been so grinding and bitter. So I proposed and Hrolf agreed that the Belgian massacres and retributions that occurred historically were altered. Once they started, the Dutch Queen intervened with the Kaiser. The Germans wanted secure supplies lines, the Belgians threated those and so the Germans were brutally reacting. The Dutch Queen ahistorically offered to supply peacekeepers. Belgian provinces and towns were notified that if they desired, Dutch Household troops (later the Dutch Govt got behind her and regulars were deployed) would take over. While extremely annoying the Entente (part of its attraction due to the aforementioned blockade), they did not wish to see either the 15 Dutch Divisions, nor the Capital ships, added to the German forces, so Dutch neutrality continued. Wildly popular in Flemish areas, the Dutch troops were also later requested in Walloon areas. While strongly disapproved of by the political elite, who were on the other side of the front lines, this intervention became a basis for popular Belgian support for the Dutch Queen. An echo of this approach was seen in the Kongo Expeditionary Brigade deployed to Bolivia.

6) The Germans displaced at the end of WWI by border changes were offered the 40acres & a mule deal funded by the Dutch Queen. This led to a sizable German population in the highland areas of the East Kongo- Katanga, Rhodesia, and the coastal plains of Dutch Guiana. This is supplemented by some SAE / Javanese colonists. This is also part of bringing these areas along faster than historical.

7) In the Early 1930s I plunged Belgium into a depression, brought on by massive political-business corruption. The Belgian King enjoyed great popular support as a figure free of taint who moved to clean up the mess. In this time frame Princess Julianna of the Netherlands married the popular Belgian Crown Prince. This was followed by Dutch recapitalization of Belgian industries and financial support for infrastructure and industrial projects. All of which made the House of Orange rather more popular in Belgium. Then the prince ahistorically tragically died, making Princess Julianna a popular but inexperienced young figure, which was followed by the historic death of the King, leaving a Belgian that had turned to the Monarchy for salvation&without a monarch.

Then came my big duex ex machina, where the Belgians, searching for a suitable Monarch, desiring one strong and experienced (why the Princess was bypassed), with strong moral traits and with great financial acumen& and (after I rewrote the Belgian succession) wound up settling on the Dutch Queen (who actually had all these traits)  underpinned by very strong Flemish support, and a slight majority of Walloon support, as the new Belgian Queen. She commutes by train from capital to capital. The Kongo actually saw some protest at her assumption of the throne, which led to some deaths as many took offense at those slighting the Liberator Queen and tore them to pieces before the police bothered to intervene.

9) Princess Julianna has since remarried, controversially choosing one of Kaiser Wilhelm IIs grandsons. Her personal reputation is strong enough to withstand this.

10) I have occasionally included news bits indicating that a Luxembourg political faction believes greater integration with Belgium and the Netherlands is desirable from a Military, Employment and long term relevance POV. RAMs Benelux and the historic use of Belgian currency underscore this.

Moving forward

So all the above results in a more integrated Benelux area, with hopefully a plausible basis for further integration, a far more developed Kongo, and somewhat more developed DEI and Dutch Guiana.

The question is& how to design a political structure that will
1.Allow foreign policy and trade heft
2.Provide for mutual defense.
3.Allow the economies to grow at disparate rates
4.Allow for the richer economies to provide capital to the poorer, leading to fast growth and good return on investment
5.How to ensure some common values and rights
6.How to preserve strongly individual societies
7.Allow provincial areas (DEI, Dutch Guiana) to transition to sovereign areas within the framework.

What I am leaning to is a Confederation structure for the United Kingdoms of the Netherlands
A Bill of Rights establishing minimal norms.
A ruling council representing the nations, with a Monarch as head. This would also serve as a constitutional court and validate elections, and sign off on member nations forming treaties outside the confederation. The council would also decide when a military action by all was required. The council would generally act by 2/3rds majority, the exception being when judging elections/constitutionality of a nation, that nation would not vote.
The Monarch would be designated as the head of the House of Orange, or the next in line of succession if the head of household was not at age of majority.
All Heir Apparent, Monarchs, and Prime Ministers would be subject to being found unfit for service and disqualified only by a supermajority vote of the council, followed by a majority vote of the non-involved nations parliaments. Call it coup and idiot protection.
Centralized Customs/coast guards, with a nominal tariff funding.
Each Nation would have to chip a % of their annual tax take to the central treasury. This would fund both the Council, and a common Navy/Marines (i.e. most of what matters here). Each Nation would maintain a separate Army. Quite possibly there would be joint Army that the National troops would rotate through.
The Queens Investigative Service would be bumped up to UKN level.
The Bill of Rights would include the right to education and languages. Each nation would commit to teaching Dutch in addition to a native tongue and a foreign tongue. The Dutch native speakers would have to learn a Confederated tongue. All bureaucrats would have to demonstrate proficiency in the language of the area posted.
A central treasury which would be entrusted with minting coinage for all, but there would be a primary Currency  likely the guilder, and the secondary currencies pegged to the Orange and allowed to inflate at an announced rate, annually adjusted. This would allow Kongo/DEI to grow without having currency crisis.
The central treasury would also issue a limited amount of mutually insured debt  say 20% of a nations budget (stable bonds are actually useful in economies), with all debt above that being only insured by that nation, except in times of Confederated war.

So we would see a series of constitutional monarchies, mainly led by the House of Orange.
United Kingdoms of the Netherlands  Queen Wilhelmina of Orange
Kingdom of the Netherlands  Queen Wilhelmina of Orange, then Crown Prince William
Kingdom of Belgium  Queen Julianna of Orange
Grand Duchy of Luxembourg  Grand Duchess Charlotte of Luxembourg.
Kingdom of the Kongo  King Alexander of Orange..(who may marrying some SAE princess) Though I think originally I meant for him to marry into Luxembourg...rats...
Grand Duchy of Ubangi-Shari  King Alexander of Orange

Province of Dutch Guiana  Im thinking some Prussian Exile is picked to be Grand duke here.

The Dutch East Indies would probably become ruled by some of the old Native nobility, as constitutional monarchs. This part I really dont have worked out well. The Governors Ive got are either Dutch born there, or folks with native names cobbled together from 2 historical native figures. I havent addressed the old nobility at all, though historically the Dutch worked through them.

The way TIDE is set up, the initial legislatures were not elected, but actually appointments of local grandees and wealthy  meant to ensure folks benefitting from the status quo were in power. The second elections opened half of those seats, and the third elections filled the other half&but the franchise was rather restricted to the educated, further favoring the status quo. Eventually, most will qualify to vote- but thats a ways off. Each tier of legislature sends its appointees up to the next tier, which means the advisory council to the Governors probably features many of the prominent nobles, who have built power bases in the lower councils. Eventually, a prosperous and educated public would presumably choose to be a nation rather than a province, but hopefully would stay within the Confederation.

The 7 Provinces of Dutch East Indies aka the Malay Archipelago :
Sumatra
Java
Borneo
New Guiana
Moluccas
Celebes
Flores

Conclusion

So& after all that Blathering&
1)Is anyone still awake
2)Is what Im proposing to move towards make sense to folks
3)Where does it fail the logic test
4)What am I missing?
5)What should I be adding ?

Well, I know this has been hinted at before; and I've tried hinting in return about what my opinion is. Since it's now brought fully to light, I'll just come out and say... I am absolutely, positively, militantly opposed to uniting the Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg.

Quoted

1)Is anyone still awake

Yes.

Quoted

2)Is what I'm proposing to move towards make sense to folks

Speaking OOC here of course...

(a) In a broad view, it makes sense, given certain assumptions. I am not entirely sold on those assumptions, but they are a part of your established history; therefore you can consider my comments on those assumptions as you see fit.

(b) The German Government would not appreciate a recreation of the Kingdom on Burgundy on its borders, particularly in view of what it perceives as the unwarranted paranoia of Belgium, and the blunt refusal of its political leaders to even consider discussing questions of mutual interest with its neighbor.

(c) The question of the voting membership of PETA would have to be addressed. Presently the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg each have a vote; if they join together into any form of unified government that unified entity should have but one vote, not three.

(d) The German Government would not look favorably on any Prussian junker expressing interest in a ducal title, exile or no.

(e) As a player, I am not entirely sold on what I see as the expropriation of German population following the Great War; I know that it is not going to change, given the vital part it seems to play in Weswold history. From my player point-of-view such emigration was not on a sufficient scale to significantly impact German demographic growth during the postwar period.

Quoted

3)Where does it fail the logic test

Given most of the assumptions you have made in the Wesworld history of the Netherlands and its dependencies, your proposal seems logical, except in the sense that you are presuming that three very divergent cultures - the European culture of the homeland, the African tribal culture of Kongo and the predominantly Muslim culture of Indonesia can work together in harmony. Despite the increased European presence in the Kongo (which itself invites internal inconsistencies - having taken charge of the best agricultural lands) its culture at the grass roots is going to be very different than that of the Netherlands or Belgium. Given Indonesia's share of the entire Confederation population it will skew political developments in its favor or it will reignite the nationalism which you presume has been brought under control.

That, at least, is my view, for what it is worth.

Quoted

4)What am I missing?

As noted above, I think you have not fully considered the differences in culture between the constituent portions of the proposed Confederation. Of course, you may have done to but not fully expressed them. In any event, as a player, it is your right to determine these matters.

Quoted

5)What should I be adding ?

Nothing immediately jumps to mind beyond what has been mentioned above.

I'm awake!

I would say that given the current split within Belgium there are cultural tensions that would probably still exist within WW. I've never thought of the Flemish and Waloons as being particularly close and neither that the Luxemburgers have been eager to integrate. Indeed they have probably done better by staying independent. I won't reiterate Bruce's good cultural points about Kongo and DEI, although I find your summary and explanations most useful to understand these area a bit better.

I can see France and Germany's IC distaste for such a bloc, IC Britain would be mixed about this. Generally I feel we should deal with this OOC before we delve into the IC reasoning. Of course we can magic-wand back history and create whatever cultures we want, that's a gaming luxury and since Kirk plays both nations its a logical move in that sense. Transferring Royal power to state power is tricky. I'm not sure that makes a long-term cultural change more feasible. The mention of Royal wealth and Household Troops suggests the monarch has power beyond that, say, of the British Royal family and more akin to a dynastic supra-national polity. Would the Royals want to link that power too closely to a combined political establishment? Wouldn't the Netherlands always be the defacto leading nation given their economic strength? Would Bel and Lux gain enough economically to make a new Benelux bloc worthwhile?

Just a few thoughts and questions I've had so far.

Strictly OOC, seeing all that peace and quiet in Europe, I am completely for this going ahead, we could use a little shakeup in the Old World.

Quoted

...End of Game in 1950,...

Really?

Okay, now that I have a space to sit down and think, let me try to give a more in-depth answer.

In general, I don't believe that Belgium and the Netherlands should merge. I've never been entirely happy with the Wesworld annexation of Austria, nor with the rather underhanded way that India and Persia briefly ended up. (Kudos to Rocky for resolving that in a satisfactory manner.) This proposal brings together two nations which are even more important in sim terms - an aggregate twenty-one factories between them, no small matter in my view. All of the things that I disliked so heartily about the previous mergers are going to be herein amplified. I think it's only possible because we have the same player running both countries, able to pull all of the strings necessary to gloss over the mountains and pave them into molehills.

As I said in my quick post this morning, I've seen the hints; this comes as no surprise to me. I tried to hint back at how it'd be received, and I'm still opposed to it, even after reading through Kirk's quite detailed and informative post. (Thanks for spending the time to put that together, by the way, rather than just doing it.)

I suppose that, if this goes forward anyway, I'll evaluate my in-character response based on the nature of the way it's done. But my initial gut reaction to this is to form the Grande Armee and give this proposed Confederation a ninety-day shelf life.

Quoted

Originally posted by Daidalos

Quoted

...End of Game in 1950,...

Really?

This is the rumor that never dies. It's constantly asserted that the game ends in 1950, because Springsharp ends in 1950, but that's never been a position of the moderators.

Springsharp being unable to easily account for post-WWII developments is a hurdle and a challenge, but it is not a sim-killing one if people wish to continue playing.

Thanks for the responses all.

Let's see
Shin Ra
Probably I got that idea from RA when I joined and he briefed me. Certainly it's what I view I signed up for. Official or not, 1950 I'm done. My interest level wanes as we get away from naval rifles and into aircraft. I have less interest in jets and missles even less so. Big boat with flat top just doesn't thrill me as much. Though I did like touring the Intrepid and Hornet when I could

I'd be much more interested in starting fresh from 1890 with a slightly better economic underpinning, and perhaps using nations pulled from various times in history- so the borders and culture have foundation. Maybe shuffle the map a tad by shoving Africa to the SW and making the Yucatan/Panama canals straits.

Brockpine
Thank you for a more thoughtful response. I put this post together in large part due to your mutterings and those of others. I've tried to build a pretext into the story line, but if I have multiple folks going um, you missed x, y and z then I probably haven't laid sufficient groundwork and should really go work on that, or just toss the idea.

From reading it, it seems you're against the entire concept from a metagame point of view. Which makes for a hard viewpoint to accommodate. Do it for whatever rational, you're not happy. Drop the idea and forfeit the background work, and I will be disgruntled. I don't see a good middle ground.

As for your point - Would it happen with two different players..of course not, each would want to run their own place. However, if you revise that to....is there precedent for a political marriage between Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands? :

I will point out the following
1993 : EU founded - I'd say it's more of a Confederation than a Federation.
1957 : EEC  founded.
1952 : Failed effort at a European Army
1951 : European Coal and Steel Community founded

Common theme- all had Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands as founding members. 42 years from ECSC to EU.

Additionally :
1955 : Benelux Parlement founded
1944 : Benelux founded.

Here, the first step to warm fuzzy feelings was the young Queen stepping up and plunging her soldiers and fortune into cleaning up King Leopold's mess in the Kongo- in 1905. The Belgium-Luxembourg Economic union was 1921, and the Netherlands joined in 1923. It's 1944, I'm talking about 1950...so it's currently 39 years from the point of departure, and will be 44. Given the historical timeline, that doesn't seem out of line for a Union of some sort.

Military Invasion : France would win. The 100 divisions vs the 49 division-equivalents kinda seals it. Though I'd guess 30 divisions would stay along the Iberian and Italian borders, making it 70-49, and the defensive pre-planning the Belgians are working on should mean it would be painful. France's international standing would be thoroughly trashed by suddenly invading traditional nuetrals. Roleplaying would be interesting in how the story was sold to the French Public. France's position in Afrika and the Far East would suffer as the rest of the Conferation's 80million people fought on. It would be interesting overall.


Foxy
Well, I would have said I didn't expect anything to really happen. The Benelux simply aren't that big and even combined just make a mid-sized power, basically the size and industrial potential of Nordmark. But given Brock's response...I could be wrong.

Hood
Hmm, you stayed awake through that? I'll have to blather longer next time.

Thoughts and comments are good
Working my way backward up to Bruce's post btw.

Ok, - the Queen...
Queen's power  I've tried to be quite clear about that over the years, in Wesworld, she's more formidable than in the real world.

The Queen of the Netherlands is the Constitutional Monarch and head of state there.
She runs the an advisory council, and no law takes force without her signature. When the militaristic fascists were in power, she refused to sign some, and traded TIDE funding for other signatures. Technically governments shouldn't be passing laws the monarch won't sign..but there's only so much detail I will go into.

She has the ahistorical Queen's Investigative Service which reports to the Monarch- functionally the Crown Prince and his executive. Conceptionally, it was an maritime monitoring group, it's has considerably more shady aspects and is funded through...oh I forget if I specified. I don't know if I decided on Customs or Navy...one of them...it's a bit dark grey.

She has a rather strong role in foreign policy, as signing treaties and appointing ambassadors are her gig.

She also has the ahistorical household troops  which are decribed as :
There are 12 "Household" regiments who's deployment is dependent on the monarch. 

Which works out to about 36,000 men. There's also the 1st Marine Brigade which is stated as being Household- roughly 9,000 men. Which gives her 45,000 troops at her direct command. As indicated, historically she directly ordered a cruiser to South Africa, here she is still Commander in Chief. OTL some of that was removed in the 1890s constitutional revamp, but that doesn't apply here.

Toss in that technically she's still an absolute monarch of the Kongo, and of Ubangi-Shari. Which means the Expeditionary Brigades ~45,000 men are readily available for her orders, and she could simply declare war. In reality, for much of her reign, her estranged husband served as her Govenor down there and she acted by cable and occaisional visits. As I recall, the Kongo participation in Bolivia was (internal to me) driven by her behind the scenes.

Then there's the economic aspects. Originally, in the 1930s...in the depression..she was reputed to be the world's first female billionaire prior to WWII. Royal Dutch & Shell was a known investment. Supposedly, after WWI the Dutch Govt prevailed on her to disperse her holdings, and she drove around NYC picking out buildings she wanted.

In Wesworld, she poured her money into the Kongo, and then SANTA came along and made that a good investment. I tend to regard her as at least as wealthy, if not more so, than the original timeline, especially since there hasn't been a depression or WWII here to derail it. Then there's the Queen's Penny from the Kongo Treasury.

Then there's the Belgian crown , but it lacks many of the perks. Better chocolate.

Then add in the strong personal popularity she had in both our world...and wesworld

Anyhow, in real life a rather formidable woman, she makes a lovely all-purpose foil here.

Economic power -
If I recall the League of Nations correctly, per capita, Belgium was the most industrialized country in Europe- not sure if the wealthiest per capita as well. So there won't be a massive dominance by the Netherlands. Further it's not a case of forming the Benelux- that's been formed in Wesworld for 21 years, and Belgium has benefitted greatly when their economy took a hit and the Netherlands pitched in. As for Luxembourg- they've been in an economic union with Belgium for 23 years. That die was cast ages ago under RAM. For both of them, a unified currency would be more stable, and access to the goods and markets of the Kongo/DEI should be beneficial.

For Luxembourg, the larger employment and financial markets would be a boon. For Kongo/DEI...to a certain extent the decision is moot as the reins are held in the Hague, but access and convertability to a stable currency should make getting loans in local money much easier and at better rates- allowing for much smoother development. Common law structures would also encourage rich-country investments, be it Benelux or other, bringing prosperity much quicker.

Political union -
I'm not looking to erase the individual countries, just join them at the top a bit closer, which should give them more clout in the global politics. A midsized nation will get more listeners than tiny ones. Militarily, both France and Germany could overwhelm them, it's more a matter of the amount of effort it would take.


Bruce

Culture... I'll write up a seperate post so you get an idea of where I think things are at and where they are going.

Logic test :
Well that's a plus. I've tried to build in stuff over the years to slowly move towards this always somewhat nebulous endpoint.

I am more convinced I had some scheme to marry Prince Alexander to the Luxembourg line to rope that in. Unfortunately I've put some effort in his presence in Kongo and South Afrika to make him the logical successor down there. As said above, I'll explain culture in the next post.

Let's see :
(a) I'll take what comments I can get. I realize anything on this scale would involve complexities not easily understood or explained. While a couple historical departures may set the stage, I could see Well X happened, therefore Y...not working.

(b)blunt refusal of its political leaders to even consider discussing questions of mutual interest ... which refusals and questions of mutual interest are you speaking of? Further, wouldn't Germany then see Belgium's association with a long fairly friendly Netherlands as a good thing ? Afterall, the problem folks are the Walloons

(c) Agreed. Depending on how the foreign policy of the association works, the LON seats may be lost as well.

(d) Which might be enough for them to go with another candidate. I'm figuring the Constitutional Monarchy system has worked well for the Dutch, they may try to use it as a model for systems in provincial areas turning independent. This is however one of the assumptions I'm more dubious of.

(e) Well, I at least specifically talked to Hrolf, the German player, about those colonists. I needed some technically skilled seed population and so skimmed some off the displaced folks. I don't really see any worries about adjusting German population up or down, a small change in birth rates due to less competition for food/jobs within postwar Germany, and lesser losses in WWI...easily explain the same populace.

Awake  you too? Dang, I'm slipping.

Oh dear, why did I make a Boy George reference? Now that darned chameleon song is in my head, and I didn't really like it back then.


Culture Conceptions:
This is why I am leaning towards a Confederation rather than a more integrated Federal state. The different nations are at different levels of development, have different religious and cultural backgrounds. They have much to gain by close association, but need room to grow independently.
Further such a structure would hopefully be something the current provinces could grow into.

However, thats why the Bill of Rights and primary education is included- to give a cultural baseline for everyone. Ensuring Dutch is taught as a common tongue will help as well.

Optimally it would be a structure that would have a structure that other nations might even consdier.
Truthfully, I'm not sure I can craft a reasonable political structure to accomplish my goals...and very dubious I can manage the optimal version :

Netherlands : Well, they had no issue with the Dutch culture J

Luxembourg : From 1815-1890 they were in personal union with the Dutch Monarch. From 1921-1944 they have shared an currency with Belgium and an economic union with Belgium and the Netherlands. They have been heavily interacting with the Dutch for nearly 130 years, I dont think its a big culture shock to rejoin with them. Indeed, with the Confederation approach they would hopefully pretty much return to personal union status.

Belgium : After the Napoleanic Wars, the Kingdom of the Netherlands was formed at Russian insistence as a counter to the French. In 1831, stoked and supported by the French, the Walloons revolted. French Armies were sent to their aid, and eventually in 1839 the Walloon region, along with the Flemish region, and half of Luxembourg, was split off to make Belgium. The cultural issue here is the southern half- the Walloons.

The northern half is Flemish, and in modern times there is both a seccession & independence movement and a movement to go join the Netherlands. Meanwhile the disfunction with the Walloon south has led to political paralysis.

In Wesworld, my efforts to create a logical basis for the Walloons viewing the Dutch as friendly and welcome stem from the WWI and Depression storylines. Imagine the Belgian merchant, reading about international outcry at the way their King has treated the Kongo. The conference to deal with it, the shameful refusal of their own Belgian government to step up to the plate, and the young Dutch Queen, known for hosting the two Hague Peace Conferences, stepping up and setting things to right. Imagine the Belgian soldier, returning home after the war, and learning that Dutch troops had come, on that same Queens personal say so, and shielded their families from the Germans, stopping the retributive massacres. Thats got to be priceless PR. Not to long after, their country forms an economic association with the Dutch and prospers through the 1920s. These same folks, now middle aged, and their kids, they benefit from the Dutch loans and capitalization when the Belgian economy takes a nosedive. Their own government hopelessly corrupt, they watch first one Monarch start cleaning up, and then when he finishes the Dutch monarch  that same Queen who has twice stepped up- finishes the job. The Walloon voters have nearly 40 years of good experiences with their Dutch neighbors, who have repeatedly come to their assistance.

Again, they will be keeping their internal laws and lawmaking, so I dont see a big cultural issue. I would expect a referendum would be the North ½ - 75%, the South ½ like 40-50% for more unity with the Dutch.

Kongo : The Kongo culture is a hybrid one, with a primitive underpinning and a glossy Dutch topcoat. The Heart of Darkness was based on Konrad's journey up the Congo. The Casement report caused international outrage. I imagine the Kongo cultures were torn apart under King Leopolds reign. Estimates of the real world population losses vary wildly- as do the the estimates of population, but 50% is a recurrent one. Thats just devastating to a society [edit: also why there was empty lands for colonists to be settled in]. When the new culture sweeps in as a savior and liberator, and starts providing primary school education, that culture has rather rapidly adopted. The old ways failed miserably, and while they still have a strong cultural influence  and why the Queen started with a Fuedal order (Chiefs became Barons, etc) with the ties of honor and obligation, and is using a speeded up English model of progression to map the route to democracy. So far they are 40 years along, which given the life expectancies, means virtually everyone has been through Dutch schooling and raised in the system.

Ubangi-Shari : Never been sure how the Dutch wound up with this OTL French territory, but I tend to lump it in the same timeline/culture as the Kongo. The only things I've done with it are planned a railroad to the Sudan-Egypt (oh, btw Hood...) and stuck the Dutch Area 51 there. Frustratingly I forget what I called it.

Malay Archipelago :
Dutch history here goes back to the 1500s. I wasnt aware early on that conquests really didnt end until the mid-late 1800s, with Bali being even later, etc. I believe Ive stated the total conquest happened earlier here. If not..um FYI....At least in my mind, its been pretty much consolidated under Dutch rule since the end of the Napoleanic wars, with local revolts based on culture/ideological aspects but with minimal religious aspects.

Obviously the fact that most of the natives outside the Moluccas are Muslim and the Dutch..arent ..is a big deal. Ive made references to People of the Book in past write-ups, its a Moslem term and part of how the Dutch approach that matter. They underscore that they are all Abrahamic religeons, which works with the generally moderate muslims of the area.

The Ethical Policy was ~1905, and TIDE really kicked it into full fledged in the mid 1930s. However the native backdrop and culture never had the shocks the Kongo did, and is still strong.

I plan on having a secession plan that sets a high bar, and broke the islands into different provinces, which allows the Dutch to play protector to the non-Javanese..where most of the resources are, and thwart any pan-Archipelago nationalism, while better accomodating local tastes. I've already described how the legislatures were designed to result in pro-status quo (Dutch rule) folks by making those prospering under the system most likely to attain office.

All of this is so that when they reach that threshold for independence in the mid 1950s (majority of folks will have primary education) , its more likely most of them stick around within the system. So it's needed to be sufficiently loose enough that benefits are clear, and penalties hidden, and the voting threshold to leave requires a 2/3rds majority- attainable but unlikely.

Kirk,

Your objectives seem to be in line with most others grappling with colonies in a period of historical decolonization. My sense is that, like the others, it is optimistic to expect the entirety of Dutch territory to remain under the Dutch crown.

I'm uncertain about the proposed two-layer monarchy. One monarch has dule roles as national and confederation head of state, which seems a conflict of interest waiting to happen.

The language considerations are mostly sensible, but it may be pushing their luck to expect people to become trilingual. The local tongue and the common Dutch tongue are a sensible compromise.

I suspect there would be some tension with the proposed composition of the Confederation. If Luxembourg has the same "weight" at the table as the Netherlands, it is very powerful indeed. If even some of the seven DEI provinces join as separate nations, the European members will find their foreign policy controlled by their former colonial subjects. I do not see any European people putting themselves in this position in the '40s.

I agree with the general observations offered by Bruce about culture/religion differences and assume it will be a factor in the fate of the various colonies. That said, the back-story behind Kongo has been laid out such that I could probably buy into a decision to remain within a Confederation framework if that decision is made while Wilhelmina is still on the throne. Things will get a little more iffy when she kicks the bucket, because her replacement will lack the same amount of personal capital with the Congolese that she did. Ubangi-Shari and Guyana are lesser knowns for me.

Regarding the DEI, I'm of two minds. On the one hand, we don't have the historical clobbering of the Netherlands by Japan to incite anti-colonial sentiment, and the Bharati agitation's been over for a while. You've also arranged for more effective and compassionate treatment of the Indonesian people by the Dutch. This should enhance your chances of keeping the DEI in the nest.

On the other hand, my limited understanding of decolonization suggests it's usually the educated folks who try to move their land towards independence, so with more education in the DEI, I think there will still be a push to be rid of the Dutch from some quarters. Further, the locals do still have some role models of fully independent Asian states nearby - Philippines, Siam, Japan, Bharat - that they can aspire to emulate. These argue against hanging around.

What's neat is that you've given yourself the option of dealing with each of the seven provinces in different ways; if the Javanese want to hit the road, they can, but if the Sumatrans get nervous about being stuck between good ol' Bharat and newly independent, ambitious Java, they might opt to become a nation within the Confed to retain Dutch protection.

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Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
As for your point - Would it happen with two different players..of course not, each would want to run their own place.

That was what happened with India and Persia, actually. One player signed the country over to the other player.

This is why in general I'd vote 'no' if a player asked to run neighboring countries.

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Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
However, if you revise that to....is there precedent for a political marriage between Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands? :

I will point out the following
1993 : EU founded - I'd say it's more of a Confederation than a Federation.
1957 : EEC  founded.
1952 : Failed effort at a European Army
1951 : European Coal and Steel Community founded

Common theme- all had Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands as founding members. 42 years from ECSC to EU.

It's my policy as the French player to prevent something like the EU from ever forming. Just FYI.

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
Military Invasion : France would win. The 100 divisions vs the 49 division-equivalents kinda seals it.

France only has forty-two divisions in the Metropolitan and twenty in the Outremer.

Well this is stimulating stuff. You've obviously put a lot of thought behind this.

Ok, I can see the economic links are fairly strong and together they would make a stronger bloc, but if they are part of PETA already I can't see them gaining that much more. Of course it terms of trade with non-PETA nations it is a boost.
The EEC is probably not the best example because that relied on other Franco-German concerns and Britain to an extent.
However, like the EU, a rationale has to be formed to say why Benelux would want to complicate a fruitful economic arrangement with political concerns. Would the voters really benefit enough to vote yes? Like today's EU do we really get the value-added from all the political nonsense above the basic value of free trade and easier business?

The Queen's power is formidable, quite a character but, as Rocky alluded too, once she's popped her clogs that acumen is lost even if the money is there. That personal bond is also lost. Also, wouldn't the political union want some of that Royal power when she's gone? Generally all democracies seek to limit the power and influence of monarchy. Right now it seems like the Queen has bought herself a world empire and decides how its run.

Thanks for the heads-up on the Sudan railway!

I back Rocky's comments about education and independence. The local elite want their own power and freedom to act as they please and have control over their own destinies. Nearly all colonies everywhere under whatever Imperial Master want to be free. Very few have chosen to stick with the Mother Nation unless they feel threatened from other outsiders. The Seven Indonesian provinces is a good idea to maintain power, but if the colonial power ever does vanish then an independent Indonesia is impossible to construct without civil wars and genocide. You may have unwittingly stoked up future problems even worse than OTL. Generally France has tried to build a stable basis for independence, generally Britain tries the same but also feels less inclined to allow early independence because instability could be far worse.
As Rocky says, balancing the power in any confederation is tricky, either the Europeans feel the colonies have too much influence or the colonies feel they have been artificially denied rights. Rocking the status quo is dangerous (why I've never allowed myself to create Malaya as a Dominion).

BTW, annexations and mergers are complex. As Brock says India/Bharat was one example and I stopped myself getting Argentina too involved in Paraguay because the rationale just wasn't there beyond making it a military conquest. Kirk has more background and logic to this argument than many others in WW but the doubts still linger. Part of my says, "yeah do it, let's have some fun" and the other says "nah, it would never be realistic or achievable in the real-world." Of course had this really happened in our world we might take a different view!

Kirk wrote:

Quoted

(b)blunt refusal of its political leaders to even consider discussing questions of mutual interest ... which refusals and questions of mutual interest are you speaking of? Further, wouldn't Germany then see Belgium's association with a long fairly friendly Netherlands as a good thing ? Afterall, the problem folks are the Walloons smile

Everytime Belgium's persistent paranoia has been mentioned Germany had offered to open up discussions with the Belgian Government and such suggestions have been rebuffed. Perhaps it is the Walloons, but they are the Government. Further, inasmuch as you and I have had not significant dealings as the Netherlands and Germany respectively, I am not certain how deep ties with the "fairly friendly Netherlands" go; certainly better than Belgium, but I have not plumbed the depths there.


Kirk also wrote:

Quoted

(e) Well, I at least specifically talked to Hrolf, the German player, about those colonists. I needed some technically skilled seed population and so skimmed some off the displaced folks. I don't really see any worries about adjusting German population up or down, a small change in birth rates due to less competition for food/jobs within postwar Germany, and lesser losses in WWI...easily explain the same populace.

Given my research into the historical displacement of nationalities in the wake of the Great War, Hrolf's decision seems odd, but if that is the case, so be it.


Kirk further wrote:

Quoted

Kongo : The Kongo culture is a hybrid one, with a primitive underpinning and a glossy Dutch topcoat. The Heart of Darkness was based on Konrad's journey up the Congo. The Casement report caused international outrage. I imagine the Kongo cultures were torn apart under King Leopolds reign. Estimates of the real world population losses vary wildly- as do the the estimates of population, but 50% is a recurrent one. Thats just devastating to a society [edit: also why there was empty lands for colonists to be settled in]. When the new culture sweeps in as a savior and liberator, and starts providing primary school education, that culture has rather rapidly adopted. The old ways failed miserably, and while they still have a strong cultural influence  and why the Queen started with a Fuedal order (Chiefs became Barons, etc) with the ties of honor and obligation, and is using a speeded up English model of progression to map the route to democracy. So far they are 40 years along, which given the life expectancies, means virtually everyone has been through Dutch schooling and raised in the system.

I see several possible errors in this thesis - and I will note them for the record with the caveat that "Well, it's your nation, not mine".

First, settlement of substantial numbers of European in central Africa never worked. Agricultural conditions are far different than Europe, and small-farming was a failure. Even if the local population dwindled the so-called "empty lands" would not have been overly attractive to European peasants. If anything, they would have had to push the remaining locals off the best agricultural lands available in order to establish a European-style farm, if that were possible. Europeans who settled in Central Africa went to run plantations, not farms.

Second, I think you have vastly underestimated the cost and time required to implement an educational scheme on the scale you have described. First you would have to construct a very significant network of railways, roads and other transportation networks in order to reach the entire population, and then you would have to recruit, train and deploy teachers - a hefty expense under the best of circumstances. I do not believe that forty years would be sufficient to achieve the progress you describe, and that there would still be a wide gulf between the educated elite and the locals in the sticks.


Lastly, Kirk wrote:

Quoted

Obviously the fact that most of the natives outside the Moluccas are Muslim and the Dutch..arent ..is a big deal. Ive made references to People of the Book in past write-ups, its a Moslem term and part of how the Dutch approach that matter. They underscore that they are all Abrahamic religeons, which works with the generally moderate muslims of the area.

While agree that 'People of the Book' is a Muslin term, it is commonly used to refer to the "dhimmi", non-muslims under Muslim rule. I am uncertain whether a Dutch approach in this way would work. Given the historical development of Indonesian nationalism, I am rather certain that the djinn would escape the Dutch bottle at some point.


And then, Hood wrote:

Quoted

I back Rocky's comments about education and independence. The local elite want their own power and freedom to act as they please and have control over their own destinies. Nearly all colonies everywhere under whatever Imperial Master want to be free. Very few have chosen to stick with the Mother Nation unless they feel threatened from other outsiders. The Seven Indonesian provinces is a good idea to maintain power, but if the colonial power ever does vanish then an independent Indonesia is impossible to construct without civil wars and genocide. You may have unwittingly stoked up future problems even worse than OTL. Generally France has tried to build a stable basis for independence, generally Britain tries the same but also feels less inclined to allow early independence because instability could be far worse.

As Rocky says, balancing the power in any confederation is tricky, either the Europeans feel the colonies have too much influence or the colonies feel they have been artificially denied rights. Rocking the status quo is dangerous (why I've never allowed myself to create Malaya as a Dominion).

I am very much in agreement here. Given the fact that the 18 million or so Dutch/Belgian/Luxemburg citizens would be substantially outnumbered by the 70 million or so citizens in the East Indies, it would be a matter of time before power shifted.

Quoted

It's my policy as the French player to prevent something like the EU from ever forming. Just FYI.

Wouldn't Le Grand Alliance be a step in that direction?

If anything I see most of the arguments being made against Benelux being the same arguments against the Grand Alliance. And I can see Benelux as a response to the Grand Alliance as the small countries now find themselves caught between a massive powerbloc.

For what its worth, Australia has already fought once for Belgium and if France feels the need to step on Belgian soil, Australia will fight again.

As I see it, Austrailia was fighting for Britain and not for Belgium.

Also, France needs to get its territories back which the French-speaking Belgians are stealing each night by moving the border signs.

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox

Quoted

It's my policy as the French player to prevent something like the EU from ever forming. Just FYI.

Wouldn't Le Grand Alliance be a step in that direction?

Um, actually, no.

The Grand Alliance is an alliance between sovereign nations, where the European Union is a supra-national authority to which its member states have surrendered certain aspects of their national sovereignty.

Hence a "European Parliament" which makes laws that supersede national laws, a "European Commission" that dictates policies to member Governments and "the Euro", which is supposed to be the single currency.

We are not so much arguing against formation of Confederation of Orange as describing, OOC, our potential reactions to its formation and what we perceive as the reasons why it would not work out. Kirk has asked for comment and we have provided it. The only nation that seems particularly belligerent in this discussion is somewhere down under.

Its an incredible reach to say arguements against the formation of Benelux apply to the GA for the reasons Bruce already stated. A military alliance is a long long way from a confederation of states......

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Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Its an incredible reach to say arguements against the formation of Benelux apply to the GA for the reasons Bruce already stated. A military alliance is a long long way from a confederation of states......

Ah, pithy and to the point. Glad to see you Wes!

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox

Quoted

It's my policy as the French player to prevent something like the EU from ever forming. Just FYI.

Wouldn't Le Grand Alliance be a step in that direction?

Um, actually, no.

The Grand Alliance is an alliance between sovereign nations, where the European Union is a supra-national authority to which its member states have surrendered certain aspects of their national sovereignty.

Hence a "European Parliament" which makes laws that supersede national laws, a "European Commission" that dictates policies to member Governments and "the Euro", which is supposed to be the single currency.

We are not so much arguing against formation of Confederation of Orange as describing, OOC, our potential reactions to its formation and what we perceive as the reasons why it would not work out. Kirk has asked for comment and we have provided it. The only nation that seems particularly belligerent in this discussion is somewhere down under.

Brock did speak of mobilizing a grand army, you'll recall. He might not have meant it to sound belligerent, but I can see why it might be read as such.

There's really no need for anybody - France, Australia, or otherwise to get excited about this yet. Let's wait until Kirk actually goes ahead in-character - then we can pile on to each other!