WesWorld

Yes, I said it was my gut reaction. I generally don't follow my gut reactions, since they usually lead me to do very imprudent things. I'm mostly saying that to illustrate the level of opposition I have - most of it OOC - for trying to merge countries in Wesworld. I can think of plenty of reasons that I'd oppose it in-character, but not to the level necessary for declaring war. I'd need a willing partner and a better casus belli (which could be manufactured) for that.

Hey lots of chatter, thats a good thing.
Lots to reply to..ugh.

Ok top down this time :

Rocky
Dual Crowns : You may be correct, I'm hoping that as a Confederation, rather than a federation, the centralized duties would be modest at best. There won't be a plethora of ministries to run...as those are the bailiwick of the various nations. I was kinda thinking that -unless a special session- for a couple months a year, a legislature would get together in Luxembourg (!) to deal with budget and laws proposed by various Nations for all to adopt, as well as serve as the constitutional court. The rest of the time the executive would run the various unified departments, with the Queen as advisory.

Trilingual : There's a difference between teaching a little, and expecting competence. Everyone should be happy to learn their native tongue. Many should be at least functional in Dutch. A few will prove to be good and actually learn something else. Much of the 3rd language idea is a sop  English, French, German, Chinese (DEI of chinese descent) and javan are the most likely  but the idea that is each will know at least some folks in the various other nations know their tongue as well. The only one that gets really left out is Kongo, but that's because there's no dominant language- the closest to universal is Dutch.

Power Sharing : I've put some thought into that, still tinkering. Debated going by Provinces with a bunch of them in the lowlands and few in DEI...but that's too transparent. Population doesn't work either, and this is supposed to be a Confederation of States, not a democracy. Throughout this I'm trying to envision a system that isn't too binding, offers some benefits, is better than being solo, and has a perceivable viable path forward. So lockingthe provinces into a lower status votewise is a failure. So..where I've gotten to so far is a system with half the legislature being delegates appointed by Rank- Kingdoms 5, Grand Duchies 3... for 18. And half the elegates allocated by the economic clout  as that influences trade, military contributions,etc. Not sure if the latter half will be elected or appointed. As say the province of Sumatra meets criteria to vote for, then gain, independence, it would get the 3 rank spots, and the proper proportion of the economic.

Historically, the Dutch thought they would put the DEI on a path to independence..but spanning 50-100 years. Here, both due to the Queen's stance and frankly defusing some of SATSUMA's issues, there is defined path that can occur quicker. Really, you need most of the populance past school to qualify to vote to get to independence- something foreseeable and achievable, but not quite there yet.

As for the success of it all... as both you and Bruce point out...history isn't kind to former colonial powers. For me, part of the role play challenge has been to try to envision ways around those traps. In history, the Ethical Policy backfired as it was poorly followed and underfunded. The privilidged few rose, and many went to Linden in the Netherlands... but many of the Indonesian leaders saw the disparities between the Netherlands and DEI, and the lack of improvement at home. Revolt- influenced by both the Japanese and Communists- was the result. I've tried to avoid that by writing in lower level improvements, and the much higher level of capitalization and commitment that TIDE represents. Engineeer battalions have for.. 10 years ?...been building infrastructure (well after the coastal defenses), schools, medical centers, agricultural training, equipment co-ops, etc. Prosperity has been aimed lower down here. The second major thing I see with the failure of the post-colonial worlds (and yes lots of hindsight here, sue me) is that the countries just didn't have the mindset for democracy. Tribal and clan cultures viewed power as a means of inriching their kinsmen, not their countrymen. This is why the introduction of legislatures and then elected legislatures has been more gradual and comes after the education system lays the conceptional groundwork.

And yes, the Javanese may leave- they have the biggest, most robust population...albeit an island with little resources of note. Historically, the Molluccans are Christian, the Indonesians invaded and seized New Guinea, the Borneans resented javanese settlers (excess Javanese population was transferred), the Flores include places like Bali and Timor which aren't Java friendly, and why the heck would the Sumatrans with their oil wealth want to be in a democracy with the numerically superior Javans. Sulawesi..um, I forget. On the other hand, if Java leaves, they loose free access to a great deal of resources, trade and the military shelter of the wider area. Of course the high standard for secession hurts there, as the several million folks of Chinese descent on Java are most certainly not desirous of having Javans in unconstrained control (for why, because the Javan don't care for them). Still, it's a big enough that it may slip away.

I should note that the HEBCO business in Thailand, the various Filipino civil wars, the chinese warlord period and now their second war, the various Bahrat wars.... these aren't all positives for the pro-full independence folks. Things have been pretty calm under the Dutch for 130 years. Also..btw, there's a reason I pegged the DEI factories at the same per-capita as Bahrat...so it would be less of a shining star on the horizon. Actually, I think I just finished a half factory and so they are edging ahead I'm a sneaky one. Japan, well yes, they do like Hello Kitty.

Oh, Queen kick bucket.
A great deal is riding on a frumpy 64-year old grandma.... and I've tried to lay plans for it. Part of that is that clause for the Confederation legislature to have a role in vetting the monarchs and a designated succession. Good ones can be useful, trick is to get one of those, and get rid of the fools and idiots.

Crown Prince William has long been in waiting and is well regarded. Competent if a bit more hardened than his mother.
Princess Julianna is extremely well liked in Belgium, and has now sat in the councils for a decade.
Prince Alexander has spent much of his youth with his father in Kongo, went to the South Afrikaan Naval Academy, has served as Naval Attache to South Afrika, and is generally well known to the folks in that area.
Grand Duchess Charlotte is of course the current incumbent.
The real difficulty for me is how to move the provinces (what the Dutch call the colonies) from appointed govenorships (though with representation in the Tweede Kamer now), to a different structure, and quite what that should be for validity.

Brock : Yeah, I realized when I posted that it had declined, but it was late and I didn't want to check. Hmm, checking I find Agent 148's Army de Terre Organizaton saying 80 rather large divisions. I must be looking in the wrong place, because I remember finding your discussion of the different areas in the past, but I don't know where.

Anyhow, depending on how big the divisions are modifies the numbers. Belgium fields fairly traditional 12,000 man units, while the Netherlands has beefy 18,000men. Which acctually works out to about ..~42 x12,000 man units and ~28x18k for the field forces. I've got a 1941 TO&E partially worked up, who knows if I'll ever get that update out

Anyhow, if the local number is 67, even if only 5 are left for Italy and 8 for Iberia, that's down to 54.
Firepower being simular a rough guess is 1:1 goes to defender, 3:2 slight victory, 2:1 decided victory, 3:1 steamroller. Now, prepared defenses can act as firepower multiplyers, pushing that ratio to up to 5:1. Here we're talking 3:2 or 2:1 plus the local defenses / fortifications. I suppose the French will win, but it would be more painful than I originally projected, with more chance of repercussions. Though I realized with Chad swapped, there's no longer a land route from the Kongo- your security has improved !

Now, I get/respect your personal choice. Curious how the French would enforce that elsewhere, or how that accords with the WWI right of self determination bit, but the Benelux happens to be next door. The question is- France is a Republic, have you been writing ideological pieces that the people are spouting declaring that intervention to prevent other nations from merging is needed? Is there a roleplay basis for a sudden French declaration of War? How will other nations react to such a thing? Would the Grande Alliance suddenly seem more threatening to those not in it? Actually kinda (not trolling here, just fascinated by the concept) makes me want to advance the date so we can try. However, I do think that would rather over commit my scant spare time

Still, without some obvious deep seated public French revulsion at the thought of countries getting hitched- a revulsion that would have to developed after the Anschluss as that wasn't fought- I don't see how I should be accounting for what seems to be a player viewpoint, though I appreciate you sharing it.

However, I am curious a bit more as to the foundation of your dislike for merging countries. Certainly in the case of the the Benelux they were together, then seperate, then historically kinda merged twice, while in Wesworld they add up to ~20million folks and 19 factories (sited there)...hardly a threat to the world order.

Bah, your second post cancels the war.

Hood
Well, this is all stuff that's been on the back burner since I started (7 years ago real time, 16 years ago game time ) Trying to figure out the historical departures and get an idea/define what I had was one of my early actions. Granted, I made some errors I figured out with more research, but I kinda fan those as a result.

Benefit : I've been kinda presenting it as both the economic aspects breeding familiarity, combined with the feeling of being small fish and needing to band together. Thinking on it, oddly that's a weakness. I've concentrated on setting the groundwork, and mentioning little reasons to prod the countries slowly together. I think that also plays into my choice not to go for a full Federal state, but a more decentralized form where they get the benefits of close association, mutual citizenship, currency, military protection, trade, industry, patent laws etc, without having federal laws prempting national ones all over the place.

Queen  touched on that in Rocky's. Historically part of that money was palaces and jewels- which she gave over to the state on abdication, but a big chunk rest was investments. Fun fact  1 billion in 1938 is about 16billion. Better yet, it would pay for 10 Iowa class battleships I will admit that my efforts to verify the reported amount did not bear fruit. The historical person very much impressed me, so I chose to boost some of her natural aspects a bit more  take that cruiser to the boer war, give her some household troops as equivalent and tada, intervention in Kongo. Take the Ethical Policy speech, turn it into TIDE. Etc. Fun to have a behind the scenes frumpy old lady powerhouse.

Railroad : I was playing with Railroad baron earlier this year to find logical routes with the idea of making a map. I decided a route up through Ubangi-Shari to Sudan/Egypt would have to be subsidized, but probably would be a precursor to making that area far more viable. Right now, no reason to make an export surplus as there is no way to get it to market. With the English acquisition of Chad, it also becomes a more desirable route for strategic reasons.

Bruce : Lots here. Let's see.
Belgium relations :
This may come down to a player limitation. In wesworld, Hrolf did the anschluss, the german-minority saber rattling, and expanded the armed forces at a rate greater than the Nazis did in the original timeline. The belgians reacted much as they did in the original timeline- arming up, and seeking allies. OTL the French were worthless, as they were this time. However the Dutch were available, if not enthused about the focus. Now, the Dutch did get the Belgians to tone it down a bit- there was even a Belgian order for Panzer II-Ms. This was about 6 years ago game time. Then a player changed, the Germans changed. Ok.

But..to me.. from a roleplay perspective the same folks high up in Belgian politics in the mid-1930s are the same folks high up now. Likewise the same Generals are in charge. Germany is still massively more powerful...and now has seduced France...so there is absolutely no support coming from the old ally. BUT..what about the now nicer germans?...Well the majority of the German voters that put in the saber-rattling nationalists are the same voters that will go to the next election. KIRK knows BRUCE is different, but the People involved are the same regardless of player. I don't think I should ignore the history- which isn't favorable. However, embassies are open, trade flows, relations are normal-ish. But what events really point to things getting better? The draw down of the German army helped...and was offset by the Alliance killing all balance.

So we have a bit of a difference in player views, and I well could be the one who's off here, the past year and a half have had a fair bit of angst for me.

So, yes, I received I believe a PM asking if we could make things better. I kinda replied that I didn't see how because the common history- as above. I don't recall it being everytime. I could be wrong. The problem is there hasn't been things to change that- just worsen with the Grande Alliance. However, to me that was OOC..we talked. I don't recall Germans sending a special Ambassador to improve Belgian relations, they didn't propose exchange programs, they didn't reach out to offer to include the Benelux in the Franco-German autobahns, I'm not aware of IC actions the Belgians have refused and spurned. Likewise I haven't had the Belgian Ambassador or LON rep badmouthing Germans.


Netherlands relations :
Well, in the 1920s the German armanents industry survived by transplanting to the Netherlands. Which is why Dutch subs were top notch. We've signed treaties of friendship, trade treaties, there's the historic port of Germany bit, and the Dutch have backed the Germans in the LON and Cleito, and of course the Dutch have bought german equipment at times. probably the biggest one was.. the closed door offer by Germany to add the Netherlands to the Nordmark-German treaty...if the Dutch ditched AANM. Unfortunately I had the wrong political party in then, and so it didn't make roleplay sense. As long as the UK garunteed the eastern possessions of AANM, the alliance was gold. So, overall the German-Dutch relationship at least used to be pretty good. I'm not aware of any real scuffles between the two, the Dutch even were supportive of the Grand Alliance as it means the French and Germans won't be having a devastating party near Liege.

Dutch Guiana : Hmm, thinking further, I think I was considering foisting a Luxembourg royal on that place.

Kongo
Flaw pointing is a good thing

Settlement  I said Rhodesia, actually it's Zimbabwe and Katanga- farming and mining areas. Hypothetically, I figured the Afrikaans avoided Leopolds forces better in denser terrain, leaving these more open areas more depopulated. Hence a great place to put down some folks with more farming/mining expertise. I know farmers of European extraction were the dominant producers in Zimbabwe until Mugabe nationalized their farms and turned them into small plots, turning Zimbabwe from a food exporter into a food importer as I recall. So..if real life farmers were productive there, I kinda thought it might be a reasonable place to drop some germans.

Education/Infrastructure :
Education : I was envisioning a wave of missionaries followed by professional paid teachers, and an effort to recruit and deploy more.natives as teachers. That shattered culture and the desire to not have this reoccur, and so looking positively on the new culture... is really in my mind something that would aid this. Anyhow there would also be an effort to create more teachers. The first decade would be slow, but once you have folks with some education sending their kids to school, it should grow quickly.

I look at 40 years and see 3 generations getting progressively better education. I also envisioned the military spending the first year of enlistment on basic civilized skills, and then more formal training. This is one reason I went for the mass militia approach- one- no one would ever want to invade- and two, continued socialization and aculturization.

My expectation is that in the years following the Queen's intervention, she poured a couple hundred million (which would be 4billion now and go a long way in Africa) into the country, then got the official Dutch government involved, one thing I've never covered is there has to be (how I set it up) some protectorate agreement. This led to more investment, and then came SANTA and the South Afrikaans and more resource development. Since the Queen's goal in signing mining agreements/resource exploitation was to provide for growth and infrastructure.

Railroads have been reported as connecting SAE's Dongalla to Matadi and down to Johannesberg. It's possible to travel from Matadi to Dar Es Salaam by rail. Hydroelectic dams, rubber plantations, quinine, all reported over the years. I even alluded to yellow cake production I believe (after all, the Belgian Kongo is where Little Boy came from). Those early economic injections, to me, kick started the country.

So, I know I'm optimistic- real world tends to be less idealic, but I don't think I'm way over the top. Good comment though.

Muslim/Non Muslim.
Religeon is a tough one. To a large extent, I've looked at other folks saying My nation isn't as historical and took that tact with the Netherlands in this matter. Religeous tensions have not been part of my reports in the DEI...because they aren't prominent. The Aceh revolt, Nationalist, Anti-Colonial and Communist revolts have been- and mostly resolved. There is no large vein of fundementalist muslims, though I concede some are there. Even today, Indonesia is fairly moderate as a muslim country. So, on the on hand a valid point, on the other hand one I have done my player hand waving and said not how it works here. Consider the DEI to be mostly very tolerant muslims.

Power sharing  see my musings up with Rocky.

Foxy
It's the Abbey ale isn't it?

Roo
You told? I was almost to Strasbourg !
Actually, in the past I toyed with the idea of doing the Benelux merge, but spitting the Walloons out to go join France. The Grand Alliance removed that thought.




Ok, may be gone until Sunday night.

Had a thought pop into my head- can't be sure when because I don't check there often, but it's about the historic parallels of 40 years of developement

California 1849-1889 : Major cities, thriving ag, some industry and infrastructure. "kick" was the goldrush as opposed to private and state angel investor. But distant, and totally undeveloped.

Russian Empire 1874-1914 : Major major changes in a large, harsh weather area. Massive disparities and revolt are object lesson of what not to do.

N/S. Korea : 40 years after Korean war- 1994.... Harsh terrain, harsh weather, differences between availability of markets and development capital, and none.

Japan : Pre-black fleet, 40yrs post black fleet. Far more developed nation with a top down ordered change, but jumped from a medieval nation to a regional power.

germany : Highly nationalistic and militarized in 1939 on the eve of war, vs. 1945 in the ashes of the aftermath, enter the marshall plan and 40 years and 1985 German was pacifistic and had rebuilt it's devastated industry.

Granted, much better civilization background on these last to, but I'm not portraying the Kongo as a regional powerhouse- that's SAE Frankly if the Queen dies before any Confederation-type-thing... I could see the Kongo inquiring about membership in the "Empire". (cue Vader breathing).

One last note -- My initial whirlwind of reading up on the Dutch missed some of the the 1800s conquests and political changes, so in my mind, even if it never probably made it in print the DEI boundaries now are pretty much those the Brits handed back after the Napoleanic wars. Conceptually, local kingdoms finished being absorbed in the 1700s, and the tolerant forms of Islam encouraged since. At least that's my mental story.

I'll also note that I've seen the various wiki pages and web resources change and grow in the past 7 years, so some of the stuff probably simply wasn't out there then.

Quick break to put down some percolating musings.

As I acknowledged before, the "why" was a bit of a weakness. Letting it stew a bit, I found I had reasons, and there were some presumptions and actions I've done to provide that.
Presumption is the knowledge there is not only a Flemish secessionist party, but also a smaller group that wants Flanders to join the Netherlands. To me, that means it's not unreasonable for that chunk to actively want to join the Netherlands especially with some ahistorical prodding, such as I've provided. That left the Walloons. As outlined, I've provided reasons to view the Dutch in a good light. Wallonia, on it's own, would be a tiny country with no sea access- a bit like Luxembourg. So I think my expectation would be a vote to join would be driven by a Flemish desire to get closer to their kin, a Walloon resignation that this ain't so bad, and concerns about the military and economic states. The military aspect has been covered, and is extrapolated from historic actions. The economics- in light of PETA- breaks down to more a matter of having a say.

Luxembourg is in the same boat. I've occasionally posted a minority party calling for more integration with the Dutch. Too small to be taken seriously in PETA, militarily insignificant, got ran over in WWI, can't sustain an independent currency, so uses Belgian money- which was a scary thing in the mid 1930s, and economy now strongly directed towards Belgium and the Netherlands...yet zero say in what they do. Joining would give a bit of say, a better fiscal future and some military security, an overall net positive.

So...does that make more sense as to the why ?

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
Brock : Yeah, I realized when I posted that it had declined, but it was late and I didn't want to check. Hmm, checking I find Agent 148's Army de Terre Organizaton saying 80 rather large divisions. I must be looking in the wrong place, because I remember finding your discussion of the different areas in the past, but I don't know where.

It's gotten posted around in various different places in my news and the land equipment folder. There are some changes currently going on as a result of detente with Germany and the end of AEGIS - though Italy left after I announced the size reduction. In brief:
- German border (L'Armée de la Rhin): 9 infantry divisions (reducing to six)
- Belgian border/Atlantic Coast (L'Armée du Nord): 6 infantry divisions
- Italian border (L'Armée des Alpes): 3 infantry and 6 alpine divisions
- Iberian border (L'armée des Pyrénées): 3 infantry and 6 alpine divisions
- Réserve d'armée: 6 armoured, 3 mechanized infantry and 1 marine divisions, other units
- North Africa: 3 light armoured, 3 infantry, and 3 colonial divisions
- Djibouti: 1 infantry division
- Indochina: 3 infantry and 3 colonial divisions, 1 marine division
- Foreign Legion: 7 regiments in various places, includes some armour
- Other smaller units elsewhere (eg the Fidji Regiment or the Guadeloupe Regiment)

Most of these divisions, with the exception of the Reserve divisions, are held at part-strength and would require seven days to reach their assigned manpower. However, they're all better-equipped and better trained than the European average - I'd say only the British and German armies exceed their scale of mechanization, and nobody in Europe does artillery better than the French.

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
Though I realized with Chad swapped, there's no longer a land route from the Kongo- your security has improved !

Indeed. Part of the reason I did that...

The current leadership of the French Army doesn't have a high opinion of static warfare, as they're the officers who cut their teeth in the Army of the Orient rather than on the Western Front - or on the Western Front during the Hundred Days. They view fortifications as a trap for the enemy to become stuck in; while there are still Cultists of Defense in the Armee de Terre, those who remain are advocates of mobile defense. The ADT thus believes more strongly in Napoleon's statement "A French soldier's natural state is on the attack."

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
Now, I get/respect your personal choice. Curious how the French would enforce that elsewhere, or how that accords with the WWI right of self determination bit, but the Benelux happens to be next door. The question is- France is a Republic, have you been writing ideological pieces that the people are spouting declaring that intervention to prevent other nations from merging is needed?

Yes. The French government and the national temperament is basically focused around maintaining a favorable status quo in Europe, with friendly (or at least civil) relations with all neighbors. If Belgium and the Netherlands merged, that would make them more economically potent and thus a threat to the status quo. In roleplay terms, I generally want to play France as being patiently big-brotherish to Belgium, despite the Belgians' immature desire to get France and Germany to fight. (Which, as I've said before, sparked the Franco-German detente: the French got really pissed at the Belgians trying to maneuver them into a losing fight with the Germans and showing no appreciation by allying with other prospective French opponents. The French decided to be more cunning and less shrill before the Belgians actually got them into real trouble.)

Also, as I've said before, the French feel that the Great War (and a number of others) were caused by absolute monarchies run amuck and matching themselves against more democratic governments. The strength of Queen Wilhelmina's power, both of the soft and hard variety, makes her Europe's closest living and reigning exemplar of that governmental philosophy. There are other more absolutist monarchs in Europe, but none who wield that level of power or influence. A general dislike of monarchs is one thing that the French Socialist Left and Liberal Right agree on - albeit to different degrees.

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
Still, without some obvious deep seated public French revulsion at the thought of countries getting hitched- a revulsion that would have to developed after the Anschluss as that wasn't fought-

OOC, I cannot possibly imagine that France did not view the Austrian Anschluss with alarm and revulsion. I wasn't playing at the time, so I don't pretend to have a grasp of the mood predominating at that time; but I say that elements of the French government at the time did attempt to make a badly-organized attempt to stop it. The experience led to France's more organized line-in-the-sand stance when the Sudeten issue started up.

Quoted

The current leadership of the French Army doesn't have a high opinion of static warfare, as they're the officers who cut their teeth in the Army of the Orient rather than on the Western Front - or on the Western Front during the Hundred Days. They view fortifications as a trap for the enemy to become stuck in; while there are still Cultists of Defense in the Armee de Terre, those who remain are advocates of mobile defense. The ADT thus believes more strongly in Napoleon's statement "A French soldier's natural state is on the attack."

Yeah, I got that impression when I started that discussion of Belgian bastions, unfortunately I used Verdun as an example which failed miserably- put people in mind of the wrong type of fort and different lessons- to me Verdun was also about the supply lines I should have used Kursk or naval gunfire at Sicily/Normandy for examples. I was thinking something more akin to fortified firebases dispersed in depth with overlapping fields of fire for the heavy artillery, protected well enough to render 1940s aerial attack ineffectual and so require direct attack. That way when the French or German mobile forces used their superior mechanization to concentrate a mass, that mass could be pounded and all supply lines to it interdicted. Plus those sorts of fixed things are easier for the older reservists to man than a frontline division, leaving the younger men for the more mobile forces- active defense around the bastions.

Quoted

the French got really pissed at the Belgians trying to maneuver them into a losing fight with the Germans and showing no appreciation by allying with other prospective French opponents.

Observation : France allied with Germany years after SAER made France and the Netherlands allies. [/quote]


Other
-Queen - Well, she is absolute in the Kongo, though hasn't been functionally in years- the legislature and prime minister position are by royal decree so she can more easily fix errors before granting a constitution.

- Austrian merger - was curious and so dug up the thread. That was 1932, the good Admiral only posted as the Czechs responding. Didn't recall the details myself. Can't find evidence of a French peep, but didn't dig too far.

- Sudeten - Found the "Sudetenland Issue thread- That seems to have been 1937. you seem to have been the Bulgarians at the time, the Belgians were rather vocal, the Admiral posted as the Russians and noted there was no treaty with France, but the French player (probably Agent 14 doesn't seem to have been vocal in the Czech defense Perhaps in a different thread. But if France did oppose, then 1932-1937/8+ France and Belgium were on the same page then about the Germans.

Sum up:

Well, overall folks seem to have helped out and wound down. I still have a PM conversation I need to resolve.

Most of the things I've talked about are in posts scattered over 16 years of Wesworld history, so I'm not surprised they came as news to most. The Queen's one example, I've stated this stuff in the past, just gets lost in the sea of data.

The discussion has pointed out I need to be more assertive and less presumptive as to Bel/Lux's reasons, when Hood brought that up, I really stumbled as they were something I just "knew" and "presumed". I need to make sure they are a bit more talked about.

Many of the cautions from folks about if the idea would work are valid. There are some major differences between real world colonies wresting their way free in nationalist/communistic revolts and adopting "democracy" on a shoddy foundation, and a slow stroll towards an attainable goal, secure in the notion things are getting better.

Granted, some good points were just hand-waved, but there's alot of that in Wesworld, many nations have simply been declared to be more advanced and more peaceful than historical, a tack I long ago followed.

A couple of things have come to mind from this discussion. I need to think about the benefits of a more unified Confederation vs. just staying with the current United Kingdoms of the Netherlands. I view the UKN as having a defense aspect, allowing mutual military service, residency and property owning rights, and a short declaration of rights universal to all, some ministerial meetings by the nations, but no legislature or executive. I've used the English commonwealth as a very loose example.

There are some benefits for all moving to a more structured Union, but is it enough? Maybe just the Netherlands should arrange for the colonies to turn into confederated states when they manage to matriculate for independence. In that case the only bit to do would be to add Lux to the UKN, which is certainly reasonable as it would give them a voice in the two states that basically runs their economy, while providing for more potential employment and military security.

I've got another idea I'm exploring, but I'll let that go until I'm at a better point. I was pretty much busy from 6:05am-9:30pm, then started this and another task, and now it's 11pm. Finally remembered to put the laundry in the dryer though.

Well,

I'm getting near the point of actually starting new writing. Right now I have old partial writeups and some scribblings on paper. Of course I'm also getting busy as something has come up, but that should resolve by mid November. So I thought I'd take a second to explain something.

Warning- this could be very boring to read It's also pretty irrelevant, but if you want to peek behind the curtain, continue

This kinda goes in response to the German-Belgian situation, but also as a general explanation. When I consider news in Wesworld, or decide what a nations response is, I run the news item past "characters" in my noggin, and get their response. That response may be different from what I, the player, think would be best. The challenge then becomes how to develop events so that the data when interpreted through the "characters" view will yield the result I want.

Example : Mid 1930s, Mussolini's Italy was causing all sorts of international problems. That cost AANM the support of the Royal Navy in the Far East, drastically devaluing the Alliance from the Dutch view point. I was thinking of using that as a good basis of getting out of AANM as I never thought it was a good idea. My predecessor RAM, had taken the Dutch-Danish alliance (still valid) and forged an alliance with Spain- the Danish player's other nation, and RAM's true home. Italia was part of that deal. Great control of sealanes, lots of potential entanglements with folks the Dutch had no desire to fight, poor preparation for fleet coordination.

Eduard Land's Government was pro playing "nice nice" and lowering tensions with Bahrat, strengthening international organizations, forging better links with SAE, and revitalizing the Ethical Policy/TIDE. This also matched the views of the unelected Queen.

Land's PEP was the product of a party split, and so ruled in coalition. The other half of the party was foreign policy conservatives and domestic progressives. The rising opposition was the DMZSBD the rabid militaristic semi-fascist underhanded folks who painted Bahrat & SATSUMA as the nefarious beast on the horizon the Dutch needed to arm against- and who supported Mussolini's belligerence. There were also claimants that Bahrat was just using the treaty to catch up to the tonnage limits while other nations couldn't build, and then they'd leave. Then there were a couple minor parties.

My plan was a run up to the elections, with the DMZSBD making a good showing, but Land prevailing. Then leave AANM, join either a Nordmark-SAE alliance and/or the Nordmark-Germany-UK pact, meanwhile Land was trying to get a Malaysia/DEI/Australia treaty.

Then SATSUMA and Bahrat bailed. Suddenly the DMZSPD's warnings looked...valid. Land's approach was descredited.
So they advanced enough that in coalition with the other half of PEP, they could take power. Then Mac came up with AEGIS, and with the pro-Italians in, I joined. Meanwhile the DMZSBD supported Italian/Iberia, who had difficulties with SAE, so ties there stagnated.

So instead of my goals, I went a very different path, because I felt that was more consistent with the way events would be interpreted.



Major Characters

The Netherlands
The Queen -
Progressive, feisty, principled, behind the scenes power, special capacity for independent action and public appeal in extremis. Rarely takes direct action that shows in news posts, but most events go through a dual filter of the relevant government, and then the Queen's input. Example of quiet action: El Dettirir in Bahrat, appeal for international gasmasks. Dutch Quartermaster General quietly informed review Gas Mask inventory by CinC, 250,000 reservists masks surplused. Belgian Red Cross gains large donation earmarked for El Dettirir at same time, and Royal Dutch Lines suddenly discovers a fast liner available for transport. Queen didn't pop up once in those stories.

Eduard Land & De Progressieve Eland-Stier Partij aka PEP -
Progressive, pro internationalist, seen as popular but soft. I meant to model Land and his party loosly on Teddy Roosevelt's Bull Moose party, but got sidetracked. They have the best rallies though. Real PEP rallies..

DMZSBD - De Mannen met Zeer Boze Blikken Parti
The right wing militaristic hawks. Somewhat irrational, underhanded (which caught them in the end), warlike. Disliked and extensively clashed with the Queen, who they saw as a soft headed old lady, overly interested in international niceties and coddling the natives. Admiraal Peinaar(ret) the rabid anti-Bahrati is a member.

Belgian Walloon Vocal Minority -
A slight minority of the Walloon electorate. Unhappy with the adoption of a Dutch Queen, scared @#$ of the resurgent Germans, worried about Luxembourgs noises about returning the western half of Luxembourg (some mutterings right about when Hrolf was doing the Studeten bit), they've staked their hopes on the linguistically and culturally simular French- ally in 1830 agains the Dutch, and 1914 against the Germans. Turning out at the polls in great numbers they have had a disproportionately large representation. However as time goes on, and edit : the threat(s) do not materialize, and Dutch association proves beneficial their passion fades. Worse, the Franco-German alliance shot their hope of a French reconcilation all to heck, leaving the Dutch their best hope militarily. All of that has to wait for the next election though.

Minor Characters

Crown Prince William - Virtually non existant. Quietly works in the background. Runs QIS. Sits on Raad von Staat and serves as Queen's regent in extremis. Conservative, pragmatic, slightly ruthless.

Princess Juliaana - Daughter of the Queen, married Prince Albert of Belgium, getting them used to the concept of a Dutch ruler. The young princess was beloved in Belgium and oh so convieniantly tragically widowed. Lives and works on charity projects in Belgium, sits on Raad von Staat and serves as Queen's regent in extremis. Has now remarried to the Kaiser's Grandson, who accompanies her in the Charity work and is growing more accepted in Belgium, a positive for Belgia-Germanic relations.

Vrijheidsbond (Freedom league-conservative party): Jan de Voor's party, and the original parent of PEP. Spurner of the Great War weakness, signer of AANM. Militaristic and somewhat progressive. They dislike Eduard Land on principle, and tend follow de Voor in opposition, which tends to place them with the DMZSBD due to the two parties militaristic attitudes. On rare occaisions their extensive shared values lead them to work together, leading to (at the Queen's urging) the 1940 Coalition government.

Lodewyk van der Berg : A retired character. A former prime minister, founder of the Benelux an and leader of the Catholic Rooms-Katholieke Volkspartij . He would form coalitions with the dominant party and seek the Treasury, and serve as a fiscal watchdog. Overall a moderating, fiscally prudent effect on any internal discussions, though he can take credit for the Dutch not trying for a 4-engine strategic bomber fleet in the late 1930s like the DMZSBD wanted. Oddly, I find that originally I had him down as conservative leader of the socialist Arbeiders-Democratische Bond. I admit to a bit of confusion when I was getting going, trying to absorb all RAM's posts and move forward with mine.


Queen's investigative service :
Led by Prince William and Mr. Schyut, the QIS is tasked with providing the monarch unfiltered information to aid in the Monarch's advisory role to the government. The QIS is meant to gather and analize information, and is primarily a trade/finance surveillance agency both foreign and domestic, with a secondary role of passive military intellegence. Part time agents gathering information are presumed whereever there is a substantive Dutch mercantile or military interest, monitoring legitimate and black market trade. Under the guidance of the Royalist Schyut, a small black ops section is quietly operated which occaisionally takes direct action, complete with a "commando" sub - ostensibly a Royal Dutch & Shell oceanagraphic submersible. Not so much a policy former, as a source of what other "characters" would know.

Kongo:
The Kongo government acts under Chartered rights, officially advising the Monarch or regent. Since the early 1930s, operating with elected Ministers.
The Kongo views foreign intervention in other nations dimly, but recognizes a "duty to protect". They are aware and concerned about the rights of the people that currently live there. While all five Duchies are Afrikan led, there is a small Germanic influence in some discussions, as German immigrants are prominent in technical and military regimes and predominate in some regions, led by "Counts". Populance is extremely pro-Queen, pro-SAE and pro-Dutch. Serving 10-20years in the Dutch armed forces and returning home with funds has become common since 1920. Somewhat negative towards "Arabs" (due to the historic slave raiders in the east) and Belgians (improving with time).

Prince Alexander :
Very minor character so far. Intended originally to marry off to Luxembourg, now to SAE. Kept in storylines in and near Kongo to make him the logical next monarch from the House of Orange.

Flemish-
The Flemish north of Belgium is generally quiescent, prosperous, rescued twice by the Queen, they are pro-Dutch and like the UKN's ability to work and even enlist in other commonwealth countries. The problem is, they splinter their votes among many parties, and don't turn out to the polls much because they don't have a burning desire to change things.

Walloon Majority-
A slight majority of the Walloons are much like the Flemish- fat and happy.

Luxembourg integrationalists:
I've had a number of Luxembourg legislatures call for greater integration over the years to represent a pro-integration party. The "given" that there is a vocal minority in favor just was never fleshed out.

Rest of Luxembourg:
Basically a very small, somewhat insecure nation, militarily and fiscally dependent on neighbors. Slightly resentful of Belgium for stealing half the Duchy with French help, but very dependent on the other Benelux nations. Nuetral to integration.

DEI- Javanese
Generally a little self important. Overpopulated Java exports people throughout the UKN. Modestly well off, reasonably satisfied. Prior home to insurrectionists. Standards of living have improved since 1905's Ethical policy, and the rate increased again with 1935 TIDE and the conversion of 80 battalions to Engineers- infrastructure on Java (and elsewhere) has boomed. Trade has improved since RATS.

DEI- Non-Java
Most of these are slightly resentful of the Javanese immigrants, and as democracy is taught, part of the curriculum is charts showing how the large Javanese population would dominate, but how the seperate provinces can each manage their own affairs. Sharing the economic benefits of TIDE and RATS, the Sumatrans and Papau don't want the Javans to control the oil revenue, the Flores have their own traditions, Celebes and Borneo don't like the Javanese immigrants, and Celebes recalls the Javan communists actions when they tried to set up a redoubt.

Both these demographics are drawn on for troops, but they are mixed. Since the declaration of SATSUMA, the Dutch have worked hard ensure troops are loyal by raising pay, encouraging long service times, and to integrate troop formations, ensuring better treatment and possibilities of promotions for Asian (or Afrikan) troops, and by rotating through not only officers, but also enlisted of european stock.

DEI- Mollucca
A predominately Christian and loyalist group inhabiting the Spice Islands. Wealthier and with a different culture, the most loyal of the Island troops, heavily recruited.

DEI - Perakan
Chinese descendants of immigrants. Typically fill the merchant category. Poor relations with locals, viewed as rich outsiders, so support the legal system of the Dutch which provides security. Troops have been raised especially from this demographic for Anti-Aircraft units.

DEI- Insurrectionists
Two categories, the Communists and the Pan-Asia nationalists. Both had little insurrections in the 1930s, both (because I was writing it) handled PR very badly, lost local support and credibility, lost on the battlefield to 1950s Malaysia style anti-insurgency tactics, and are pretty much non-factors now.

Dutch Guiana/Ubangi Shari :
I basically ignore these two provinces.

Kingdom of Saud
The Saudis are an abosolute monarchy that watched rebels in the western province of Asir gain international support, and then it was torn away by the Mughals from Bahrat, who have since expanded, leading to threats from Persia. The DMZSBD, through their military contacts, obtained munitions, and then used the screen of Royal Dutch & Shell exploration efforts to ship in arms and munitions, a practice ended by the QIS. This did help the Saudis field a more respectable army for Rocky's stories though, and led to the Dutch being involved in the Kingdom of Saudi. The Dutch still have an engineer battalion building infrastructure...after 8 years...and have sold surplussed equipment. Dutch efforts also helped finish the drydock in the Persian Gulf. The Land government lost credibility with the Sauds by refusing to sell tanks or bombers, considering them offensive. The Saudis as a result are a little insecure, and happily signed both WASP and MERIF, so while they still are on good terms with the Dutch, they don't rely on them.

The Saudis generally look at international events from the point of view of a minor power that had international action rip off a chunk.

Sultanate of Yemen
Basically, the same as the Kingdom of Saud. A bit more pro-Dutch due to both mercantile presence and the leased base. Also has had an engineer battalion merrily bulldozing new roads for 8 years...

An interesting summary of your thoughts; thanks for sharing. The UKN is so diverse that it must be difficult juggling all these different interests.

Eh, I realized my way of doing this is probably different than most, so figured it might be of some mild interest.

Though in this case i popped back on to add the end to the hanging sentence in the Belgian Walloon minority.
Probably should have included "Dutch People" as a minor character too. Oh well.

Typically it's not that difficult as usually it's only a couple "characters" at any one time. Overall it helps me keep the various countries separate and a bit unique. They have their commonalities, but I take an event, think, ok how would this country view that, ok, and their govt, and now the Queen's input. Ok, this result. I like to think it gives things a good consistent internal logic. ...even if that isn't evident, it's there...I swear !

You see that mostly in reaction to international events. The current LON vote is an example. Dutch want international law to settle things, Belgians/Lux don't care over there, Kongo cares about locals, while Saud/Yemen would be upset if the idea was to take it away from the local/Indochinese govt, but are fine with this result.

Another example would be the QIS getting involved in smuggling flows to the Phillipines. They approached it from a very pragmatic way, dealing with the major nodes they've been observing for a decade+. Event, reaction of appropriate minor character, result.

Interesting stuff, certainly a lot there to keep Dutch politicians awake at night worrying about all these differing viewpoints and influences.

Luckily I'm used to multiple voices in my head