WesWorld

Ok, so I am at a impasse when it comes to Libya. I have a note from RA, passed on by Brock, that RA planed to fold Libya into the Italian Republic as two states.

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following the eventual decision to make Tripolitania and Cirenaica semi-autonomous Italian provinces, with the inhabitants getting Italian citizenship

Now, I don't have a problem with this on its own merits, in fact I rather like it. But it has been pointed out that there is nothing written to indicate that the historical relationship between Italy and Libya was altered in any way. This creates a problem in my mind with moving forward on the path RA outlined given how the OTL relationship was. Also, it has been brought to my attention the oil exploitation in Libya[1] began much earlier. I am wondering how much the community feels I can work with the earlier exploitation of oil and its effects in order to make RA's given path logical knowing these events will take place in the past.

[1] Per here, here and here.

I think RA's idea was probably a good one, perhaps it will lead to trouble as decolonisation spreads across Africa but for now, and as long as the people stand to gain better living standards, I think its a good move. I've always had a sense that relations with Libya, and the EAS for that matter, were on more co-operative terms than simple colonial exploitation.

I've no problem with the oil issue given RA's 1929 news item and really oil is the key to making all this happen.

On a sidenote, I find the origins of PETA slightly amusing given the sceptical folks then doubting it would ever amounting to anything, only for it to become one of the most powerful trading blocs in the world within a decade (plus the interesting EU discussion made before the current economic crisis happened). Oh, how the crystal ball never works!

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Originally posted by Hood
I think RA's idea was probably a good one, perhaps it will lead to trouble as decolonisation spreads across Africa but for now, and as long as the people stand to gain better living standards, I think its a good move. I've always had a sense that relations with Libya, and the EAS for that matter, were on more co-operative terms than simple colonial exploitation.

Do you perhaps have any thoughts how the Senussi revolt might have been ended, then, without resorting to the measures of the OTL Fascists? That was historically a very serious challenge to Italian sovereignty in Libya, and I'd say it's a major obstacle for giving the Libyan Arabs Italian citizenship and autonomy. (After all, if I was a Libyan Arab, I know I wouldn't exactly be voting in Italy's best interest if I got the vote right after being released from the concentration camp where around 1/8th of the Libyan population died around me...)

Here is my initial thought as to how this could have played out differently. Many thanks to Brock and The Canadian for helping last night. Quite a few details will still need fleshing out, but I feel its a good starting place. Map provided for reffernce.



1917-1918: The Senussi Campaign wraps up about comparable to historical.

Some point in the 1920's: The OTL events that result in the oppression of the Libyan people are somehow averted. I feel this should tie into the Fascists not gaining power, but I do not have any specific ideas at this point.

1929: Oil exploitation begins in Libya. Per agreement with local leaders, a set percentage of sales (15%?) of Libyan oil will be directly funneled into infrastucture development wiht a additional percentage (5%?) passed directly into a fund managed by the various local leaders.

Early 1930's: Masive infrastructure building efforts (roads, harbor improvements, small factories, other such helpful projects designed to directly employ Libyans) fueled by oil sales play out.

1934-1940: After the transition to a Republic, the infrastructure investment is increased by 10%. The decision is reached with local leaders to begin education outreach programs. These programs will provide opportunities for those Libyans who wish to learn Italian and more advanced studies. Whatever investment is made into these programs will be tied in with funds geared to education of practices traditional to the area. Efforts are made to prepare both Tripolitania (OTL Tripolitania and Fezzan) and Cirenaica for incorporation as full members of the Italian Republic.

1941-1944Q1: The process to incorporate both provinces is given a target date for a vote, March of 1944. In preparation, local leaders and Italian government officials arrange for many meeting, both closed door and town hall, in order to offer direct responses to concerns of the average Libyan. These meetings are conducted in several rounds over the years, and the feedback used to address common points of concern. In late March 1944, the vote is held with counting handled by neutral (LoN?) observers. The vote passes with a few precent above the required 60% in favor.

Thoughts?

It was my intention to not become a part of this public discussion, for several reasons. However, Snip has requested that I comment publicly; and here I do so in respect of his request.


Within the confines of the construct and conventions of our game, the proposal made to

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make Tripolitania and Cyrenaica semi-autonomous Italian provinces, with the inhabitants getting Italian citizenship

is an acceptable course of action. There are more than sufficient divergences between OTL history and Wesworld history that objecting to any one would mean objection to them all.

If Snip, as the Italian player, chooses to proceed in the direction posited, he is free to do so.

However, the Wesworld historical context as to how this is to come to fruition is lacking; in effect, it is a retcon of items glossed over by the previous Italian player, yet is being made in order to further the apparent intent of the previous Italian player. Given the situation of a new player taking charge, this too is within the confines of the convention of our game.

What Snip has set forth to explain how one gets from Point A to Point B in order to proceed to Point C is at least as good as other episodes in Wesworld history. To say

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The OTL events that result in the oppression of the Libyan people are somehow averted.

is less than I would personally desire it is, under the circumstances, probably the best that Snip can offer as the prior history  where such questions would have been answered  was before his time as player.

What does strike me as improbable is the presumed ease by which two totally different and opposing cultures - one urban and heir to the tradition of Greco-Roman civilization and one nomadic and dominated by tribalism - can be united in one nation. Language, law, faith  neither is shared between the two peoples expected to become part one.

It strikes me as highly improbable that the mindset of the Italians of the 1940s would accept something that to this day some of them refuse to recognize - as the recent furor over comments by Italian politicians prove - that Africans are people too. It strikes me as impossible that Libyan Muslims would quietly set aside their traditions and institutions, such as sharia law, and agree to live under Italian civil law.

But these observations are mine, for what little they may be worth.

This game is played on many levels, and there are some who disagree with my playing style, and the directions in which I have taken the countries that I play. Some may find similar improbabilities in their own minds of the way Wesworld Germany, Yugoslavia or the Philippines behave. If so, as Snip is free to choose his path for Italy, so am I free to choose my path for Germany, Yugoslavia or the Philippines.

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in effect, it is a retcon of items glossed over by the previous Italian player, yet is being made in order to further the apparent intent of the previous Italian player

Correct. I do not wish for the process of making this information cannon to be done behind closed doors.

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under the circumstances, probably the best that Snip can offer as the prior history  where such questions would have been answered  was before his time as player

I am more then willing to have such events explained in greater detail, but for the purpose of this basic outline I did not have the needed information.

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It strikes me as highly improbable that the mindset of the Italians of the 1940s would accept something that to this day some of them refuse to recognize - as the recent furor over comments by Italian politicians prove - that Africans are people too. It strikes me as impossible that Libyan Muslims would quietly set aside their traditions and institutions, such as sharia law, and agree to live under Italian civil law.

Here is where I feel the use of semi-autonomous, as noted in the original message on the subject, comes into play. Things like Foreign policy, defense, international trade, and other such items on a state (in its Political Science definition), would be handled via Rome, with both Tripolitania and Cyrenaica having representatives with full privilege in the Senate. Go much farther below these state level actions and the Italian influence becomes more and more voluntary, with tribal law still aplicable, but the provisions exist to allow such issues to be settled in Italian court if the involved parties desire. The big outligher here is of course tax and military service. Libyans would be subject to the same rights and respsoncibilites as citizens of Genoa or Napoli, but have a choice between tribal law and Italian Civil law. That is not to say that some both in and out of the government will try and change the way tribal law works, but it will be provisioned that Libyans have a choice. It is far from a prefect system, but what I feel is a workable one.

I agree generally with Bruce's statement. If we had to objectively judge every geopolitical difference in WW (and we've managed to do so for 90% of them) we risk questioning the basis of the SIM. snip gets the right to fill in the blanks of his nation's history left by the previous player.

Bruce's 1940s mindset is an important issue I always try to adhere to. As snip has shown with women's rights Italy is different from OTL and snip could justify this in any number of ways. Italy isn't going to want to loose such a lucrative export business and its sizable investment in Libya to any future independence movement. So any means to tie the colony into the republic is a business move above all else. I agree also that Muslim law and local cultures will be difficult and that's for snip to rack his brains over. It's either semi-democratic and semi-autonomous republic or colonial imposition. Although it is noteworthy that in WW the only Arab nation outside total foreign control is Saudi Arabia and even they have foreign protection and their oil is in foreign hands. I don't think there are any 'free' oil producing regions beyond the Great Powers and Mexico and Argentina (perhaps Persia too these days).

I feel snip's proposed backstory is ok, although I feel giving 20% of the oil revenues back to the Libyan people might be on the high side. 15% might be better for 1929 and perhaps raising it during the later 1930s?

Any further comments, questions, objections, etc before I start using this backstory IC?

Im digging this back up because I have a further question. Without anything else to really go on, I am assuming that the Italian Constitution as adopted here in 1934 is similar (if not outright identical) to that which was historically adopted in 1948. I note that Article 116 of the 1948 allows for autonomous regions that are still part of the full Italian State. It sounds like the provisions within Article 116 would form the groundwork of what would be expected for Tripolitania and Cirenaica (and also Dalmatia and Slovenia for the record as the provisions were meant for the protection of ethnic minorities). Does using Artile 116 seem like a logical way to structure the relationship, or at lease a good foundation to build off of?

I'm no legal beagle, but I think that could work well.