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Thursday, June 27th 2013, 4:19am

French Aeronautical Developments, 1944

The First French Jets

Beginning in 1938 and 1939, the French Armee de l'Aire sharply increased their interest in developing turbojet engines in light of German and Italian research into alternate propulsion methods. Development of new engines was given to four French companies, with orders to research and develop different aspects of the technology. Unlike the situation which developed in Germany, Britain, and other early turbojet developers, the French turbojet research lacked the presence of iconic engineers like Frank Whittle and Hans von Ohain, who claimed patents and places in the history books. Instead, French research tended to emanate from project teams composed of multiple engineers, working and designing in concert. Although several names of the more productive and knowledgeable project leaders have survived, the majority of work was done by engineers and researchers who would remain relatively unknown through the rest of their lives.

The Problem of Propulsion
Hispano-Suiza, at that time France's largest aircraft-engine manufacturer, hired Dimitri Sensaud de Lavaud, the creator of the first French turbo-jet engine, and began work on turbo-compound piston engines. These engines used a gas recovery turbine to draw energy from the engine exhaust. Efforts largely focused on the 24-cylinder inline Hispano-Suiza 24H. By mid 1943, continued development resulted in the 24H Composé engine, which developed 3,500 horsepower. The first 24H Composé engine was actually built by Farman's engine-manufacturing division (which had close ties to Hispano-Suiza) and flew in July with the experimental Farman Belphegor, which challenged altitude records. Hispano-Suiza simultaneously worked on true turbojet technology for other non-aero applications. However, despite their work with turbojet technology, Hispano-Suiza never manufactured a turbojet engine of their own design during the 1940s..

Turbomeca, a company founded in 1938 by Joseph Szydlowski and André Planiol, worked very closely with Hispano-Suiza and Gnome-Rhone to develop superchargers for aircraft engines, and despite the company's youth, they were quickly included in the effort to design a French turbojet engine. The company grew massively between 1938 and 1942, as it was the only substantial French provider of turbochargers and superchargers, supplying both Hispano-Suiza and Gnome-Rhone. Although Turbomeca's R&D division was small, it was dynamic and inventive, and focused on small-scale turbojet applications with knowledge gleaned from their contacts with Gnome-Rhone and Hispano-Suiza. Turbomeca's assistance to Hispano-Suiza was critical to the company's successful creation of the HS-24H Composé, and by 1945 Turbomeca had prepared innovative designs for turbojet and turboprop engines. They would soon become a world leader in the development of the turbojet.

To the firms of Gnome-Rhone and the much smaller Rateau-Anxionnaz was entrusted the job of designing and building turbojets for military use. Rateau-Anxionnaz, which manufactured parts for steam turbines for Indret, had a small advantage, particularly due to the presence of engineer Rene Anxionnaz. Anxionnaz began work on a turbojet design called the A.60, which used a centrifugal compressor like in the earliest designs fielded by Germany and Britain. The A.60, which first ran in late summer of 1941, was designed to provide 1,600 KG thrust, but in practice it never gave more than a thousand kilos. The A.60 additionally suffered, particularly in its earliest days, from runaway combustion, where the engine sucked in fuel at a terrific rate and raced the engine to nearly explosive speeds, and from an unfortunate tendency to catch fire. Through 1942 and 1943, Anxionnaz worked to overcome the limitations of the engine design, but it would still be the A.60 that powered France's first jet flight, made with the Bloch MB.1000 Triton. Persisting in his development, Anxionnaz eventually produced an updated variant of the A.60, designated as the A.62, which finally achieved the goal of 1,600 kgf. The A.62 would power France's second jet, the Dewoitine D.800 Flèche, in early 1944. The A.62 was still seen as a flawed engine, however, and in December 1943 Anxionnaz petitioned the Service Technique de l'Aéronautique, which oversaw the development programs for the French Ministry of Defense, to allow them to cease development of the A.62 in order to develop a clean sheet design. The STA agreed to this proposal with the caveat that the A.62 still had to be produced through 1944, in order to support aircraft manufacturers. Rateau-Anxionnaz quickly designed the A.65, which reached the test bench in late January 1944. The A.65 was of a novel design with a single axial stage and a single centrifugal stage compressor (a design mimicked by Turbomeca later). The A.65 was the first French turbojet to incorporate a 'réchauffe' or postcombustion stage component to the engine, although this was not added until later versions.

Although Gnome-Rhone had significantly greater research and development resources than Rateau-Anxionnaz, the larger company proceeded at a slower pace. In portioning out the French development efforts, the Service Technique de l'Aéronautique had given Gnome-Rhone the task of developing axial turbojets, while Anxionnaz and Turbomeca developed centrifugal turbojets. The size of Gnome-Rhone's R&D department made the STA feel the larger company had a better ability to handle an advanced and long-term development program. Gnome-Rhone harvested extensive contacts within allied powers, particularly within Atlantis. The Atlanteans, who flew their first turbojet-powered aircraft in March 1942, had worked extensively on axial-layout turbojets through the work of Dr. Menelaus Crius. Gnome-Rhone eventually unveiled their first turbojet, nicknamed the 'Curtana', in November 1943. Despite STA's attempts to prod development along at a faster pace, Gnome-Rhone took their time for development. As a result, the first aircraft designed to be powered by the Curtana engines, the VG.640 Graoully, was significantly delayed in delivery. However, despite their tardiness, Gnome-Rhone knew their business and eventually developed the Curtana into one of the most potent and reliable engines of the early jet age.

The Problem of Airframes
STA's primary goal in developing a French turbojet was always to use it to place as the propulsion unit of a new fighter. Beginning in the mid 1930s, the French Air Force became concerned at the increase of operating speeds and altitudes of fighters and bombers. In order to accomplish these higher performance figures, piston engines were growing in size and weight, with the accompanying growth of airframe design. The Armee de l'Aire's interest in the turbojet was primarily as a way to achieve higher performance figures than were believed to be possible with pure piston-engine aircraft.

One early possibility which the French investigated was the ramjet engine of Rene Leduc. France held a substantial lead in ramjet development, and there were proposals to field groups of ramjet-powered interceptors which could climb quickly to intercept even the fastest of enemy bombers. The ramjet's greatest flaw was that it required external air-flow to start the engine: all of the ramjet flights had to be accomplished by carrying the testbed aloft on a mothership. This was clearly not a feasible solution, and thus the French turned to turbojet engines.

At the beginning of the project, numerous French aircraft manufacturers desired to undertake research and development into jet aircraft - so long as the French government paid the bill. Although the STA awarded funds for research and development of new types, they became increasingly strict with their requirements. Five companies eventually emerged at the head of the development groups. Breguet (which merged with Nord in March 1942 to become Breguet-Nord) quickly established themselves as one of the earliest partners of the STA, building the Leduc ramjets. However, Breguet-Nord evinced little interest in developing fighter aircraft. Similarly, Lioré et Olivier preferred to work on larger designs.

Most early jet fighter design therefore occurred at Constructions Aéronautiques Émile Dewoitine, Société des Avions Dassault (formerly Société des Avions Marcel Bloch), and the government-owned Arsenal de l'Aéronautique. All three companies presented their initial designs to the STA and the Armee de l'Aire in 1943, together with estimated timelines for development and production. Although the Armee de l'Aire had consciously pursued a policy of standardization with regard to its fighter arm, picking a single design and then producing massive quantities, this policy was temporarily and intentionally abandoned with the early jets. Simultaneous development and manufacture of several types, with production to occur in low quantities, would ideally provide the French air force with operational experience, as well as fallback options in case a design should fail.

Dewoitine's D.800 Flèche ("Arrow") was the first jet fighter turned over to ONERA for testing, arriving at the CEV testing grounds in January 1944. Three initial weeks were spent with inspections and taxi trials. The D.800's first flight was delayed a day due to weather, but occurred on February 11th, 1944. It was immediately obvious that performance, particularly speed, was disappointing: the D.800 struggled to outrun an Arsenal VB.20 chase plane, only pulling ahead above eight thousand meters altitude. The second flight was marred when the A.62 engine caught fire during preparations for take-off, and the test pilot broke his wrist when he was forced to jump out of the aircraft. Although the aircraft was not permanently damaged, it was an inauspicious start. Nevertheless, ten pre-production aircraft were ordered with the hope that performance would improve after further development. More production aircraft would eventually be ordered, sufficient to equip a Groupe de Chasse, but the Flèche never proved to be a success story.

Arsenal's entry into jet power was more fortuitous. Arsenal had previously made their name with the VG.30 series propeller-driven fighters, which were then followed by the even more successful VG.60 and VG.64. The VG.60 was lightweight, easy to manufacture, friendly to fly and competitive with the best foreign air forces had to offer. Arsenal took a low-effort approach to jet design: they simply redesigned the tricycle-gear VG.64 to mount a single Gnome-Rhone Curtana 1C turbojet in the aircraft's nose, with the turbojet exhaust venting underneath the aircraft's belly. Almost all other features of the original VG.64 were retained. This low-effort approach yielded ironically good results: the resulting VG.640 Graoully actually had a higher top speed and better maneuverability than the Dewoitine, although it suffered from issues with range. Additionally, as so many parts from existing aircraft had been retained, the cost of the VG.640 was significantly lower. Although the first VG.640 airframe was completed in December of 1943, Gnome-Rhone did not deliver a completed TRAC-1C engine until mid March, and flight testing did not begin until April. Seventy-six were immediately ordered, and the numbers increased quickly. Production, however, proved to be problematic: through 1944 and 1945, all French aircraft engine manufacturers had difficulty keeping up with demands. Completed aircraft often waited months to receive their engines.

Although the Graoully had several advantages over the Flèche and was produced in larger quantities, the Armee de l'Aire used it more as a sort of advanced trainer, building a corps of pilots experienced in jet operations. The Graoully was out of 'frontline service' before the end of 1945, although most planes remained in a training role for some time afterward. Others were transferred to foreign air forces.


Dewoitine D.800 Flèche

General characteristics
Crew: One
Length: 9.69 m (31ft 9.5in)
Wingspan: 11 m (initial version, rounded wingtips) or 10.50 m (final version, squared wingtips) (36ft 11in)
Height: 3.39 m (11ft 1.5in)
Wing area: 19,70 m²
Empty weight: 2,358 kg (5,198 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 3,600 kg (7,937 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × Rateau A.62 centrifugal turbojet, 15.7 kN (1,600 kgf / 3,527.4 lbf)

Maximum speed: 720 km/h (447 mph)
Range: 900 km (559 mi)
Service ceiling: 15,500 m (50,855 ft)
Rate of climb: 20.8 m/s (4,094 ft/min)
Power to weight ratio: 0.444 lbf/lb at loaded weight
Wingloading: 182.7 kg/m² / 37.43 lb/ft²

Guns: 4 × 23 mm Hispano-Suiza HS.406 cannon with 125 rounds per gun

This is the historical FMA Pulqui I, which was designed in Argentina by Emil Dewoitine and some Argentine co-workers. Used with Hood's permission.
First flight February 1944, entry into squadron service around September or so. Probably retired from service by 1946-47.
Estimated quantity manufactured: between 50-100, no more. Production will probably run from July to December of 1944, after which it will be ended.


Arsenal VG.640 Graoully fighter

Wingspan: 10.7 m (35.1 feet)
Length: 9.06 m (29.7 feet)
Height: 3.14 m (10.3 feet)
Wing Area: 18.8 m² (202.36 ft²)
Empty weight: 2,500 kg (5,511 lbs)
Loaded Weight: 3,319 kg (7,317 lbs)
Engine: 1 × Gnome-Rhone Curtana TRAC-1C axial turbojet 9 kN (918 kgf / 2,023 lbf thrust)
Crew: 1 (pilot)

Max speed: 750 kph (466 mph) @ 9,000 meters
Range: 550 km (314 miles)
Service ceiling: 12,250 m (40,190 ft)
Rate of climb: 20.5 m/s (4035 ft/min)
Power to weight ratio: 0.276 lbf/lb at loaded weight
Wingloading: 176.5 kg/m² / 36.2 lb/ft²

- 2 × 23 mm HS.406 with 90 rounds in nose

- VG.640: Single-seat fighter
- VG.640T: Twin-seat advanced trainer

This is based off the Russian Yak-15/Yak-17 concept.
First flight May 1944, entry into service October/November 1944.


OOC Comments: Basically, I view both of these aircraft as failures, or perhaps partial successes. They'll look good in press photographs and overflights during Bastille Day, but it should be fairly obvious, even to foreign observers, that the French are struggling a bit with their first jets.


Thursday, June 27th 2013, 4:49am

A very thorough and interesting summary of French developments in this arena. It provides much backstory.


Thursday, June 27th 2013, 10:33am

A very interesting piece. The VG.640 looks pretty good as a basic adaptation, say this was a common move in the Soviet Union and in Germany (109TL and 190TL) and Sweden (J-22R). France is making good progress I think. Nit capturing the BMW design team and having some Jumo-004s and BMW-003s as loot allows a clean-sheet start.


Monday, October 14th 2013, 1:32am

The First French Jets, Part 2

The Search for Quality and Performance
In early 1944, Dewoitine's D.800 Flèche and Arsenal de l'Aéronautique's VG.640 Graoully had their first flights. The performance of both aircraft, however, was disappointing to the Service Technique de l'Aéronautique, which oversaw development of jet fighters for the French Air Force. Great hope had been placed on the Dewoitine D.800, which was intended to exceed eight hundred kilometers per hour. Instead, it barely achieved seven hundred and twenty, barely better than the most powerful production propeller fighters of the day. To the surprise of many, Arsenal's VG.640 - a conversion of a propeller-driven fighter to jet power - achieved better speeds, although its range was significantly less, and climb slightly poorer. The Armee de l'Aire eventually ordered seventy-six D.800s and several hundred VG.640s, but most were used as preliminary jet trainers rather than true fighters.

The third French aviation manufacturer to produce a jet fighter was the Société des Avions Dassault. Dassault (then under its previous name of Bloch) had designed and build the first French turbojet testbed, the Triton, during 1942, and Marcel Bloch and his engineers had been working for much of that time on their own jet fighter. Whereas Arsenal and Dewoitine were building their first jets in the VG.640 and D.800, Dassault's designers had more experience - and more tools at their disposal. Bloch also resisted the STA's occasional meddling oversight, and refused to be hurried to rush substandard designs into development. What emerged from Dassault's factory in late July of 1944 was head and shoulders above its French peers, and indeed one of the finest of the first-generation jet fighters: the Dassault MD.450 Ouragan. What the Flèche and Graoully promised, the Ouragan delivered: a speedy, fast-climbing, nimble jet fighter. The Ouragan succeeded in great part due to its powerplant: the first Rateau-Anxionnaz A.65 turbojet, which had a single centrifugal stage and a single axial stage compressor. Although something of a hybrid, the A.65 produced 2,200 kilograms (five thousand pounds) of thrust, more than double the thrust achieved from the early TRAC-1C and A.62 turbojets. Dassault's heavy use of the ONERA wind-tunnels, particularly the full-sized 15m testing tunnel and Modane-Avrieux, helped the engineers eliminate many streamlining issues (such as the ones which plagued the Flèche) and test the designs in scale before ever constructing the real aircraft.

The Ouragan was not without its flaws - although the A.65 was more fuel efficient than its predecessors, the Ouragan never had great range. The fighter also had a slight tendency to enter spins that required some skill and experience to pull out of. The Armee de l'Aire exhibited cautious optimism prior to the Ouragan's first flight in August of 1944. Afterward, the STA presented Dassault with a list of changes necessary for series production, and immediately ordered twenty-five preproduction examples. It would take another nine months for the Ouragan to reach production, but when a hundred Ouragans led the formation for the 1945 Bastille Day military parade, it was clear that the jet age had arrived.


Dassault MD.450 Ouragan

General characteristics
Crew: One
Length: 10.73 m (35 ft 2 in)
Wingspan: 13.16 m (43 ft 2 in)
Height: 4.14 m (13 ft 7 in)
Wing area: 23.8 m² (256.2 ft²)
Aspect ratio: 7.3:1
Empty weight: 4 142 kg (9,132 lb)
Loaded weight: 7 404 kg (16,323 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 7 900 kg (17,416 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × Rateau-Anxionnaz A.65 turbojet, 22.2 kN (4,990 lbf)

Never exceed speed: Mach 0.83
Maximum speed: 890 km/h (480 knots, 553 mph)
Cruise speed: 750 km/h (405 knots, 465 mph)
Combat radius: 450 km (245 nm, 280 mi)
Ferry range: 920 km (500 nm, 570 mi)
Service ceiling: 13 000 m (42,650 ft)
Rate of climb: 25 m/s (4921.2 ft/min)
Takeoff distance: 783 m (2,570 ft)
Landing distance: 910 m (2,985 ft)

Guns: 4 × 23 mm DEFA cannon with 125 rounds per gun
Rockets: 16× 105 mm (4.1 in) Brandt T-10 air-to-ground unguided rockets; or, 2× Matra rocket pods with 18× SNEB 68 mm rockets each
Bombs: 2,270 kg (5,000 lb) of payload on four external hardpoints, including a variety of unguided iron bombs such as 2× 454 kg (1,000 lb) bombs or 2× 458 liter (121 US gallon) napalm bombs or Drop tanks for extended range.


Monday, October 14th 2013, 1:42am

Interesting developments here; I foresee the reconsideration of a timeline... :D


Monday, October 14th 2013, 2:20am

I like the detailed backstory...but the Ouragan in 1944/45?
Are you serious?


Monday, October 14th 2013, 2:27am


Originally posted by Daidalos
I like the detailed backstory...but the Ouragan in 1944/45?
Are you serious?



Monday, October 14th 2013, 2:57am



Monday, October 14th 2013, 3:13am

I don't see why this plane from the 50s needs to be introduced in 1944/5. The +0 rule applies to jets, right?


Monday, October 14th 2013, 3:32am


Originally posted by Daidalos

Not at all, my dear sir.

Let me point out the facts since you seem to be missing the obvious details. In terms of performance, the Ouragan matches up well with other period jet aircraft which are already entering testing or service in Wesworld. For instance, the de Havilland Vampire, which in OTL had its first flight on September 20th, 1943 - both in real life and in Wesworld. And it's equivalent in performance (to be precise, it's actually inferior in speed and range) to the Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star, which first flew on January 8th, 1944.

Moreover, we've got ahistoric countries like Nordmark, Atlantis, and the SAE, all of which are going to fly jet fighters over the next few years, with specs comparable to this. I know - I helped Hoo assemble facts for his history of SAE jets, and I wrote up the Atlantean program, too (which unfortunately has yet to be published). Why should I be denied the right to field an equivalent piece of equipment on an equivalent timeline to that fielded by equivalent nations of my power class?


Monday, October 14th 2013, 3:40am

The French in OTL had this thing, known I believe as the Occupation which somewhat hindered their development of weaponry during the years 1940-1944. Then, once France was liberated they had all this rubble to clean up because some folks had been dropping bombs on them then made their country a battleground.

All told, while the Ouragan was introduced in 1952, it is more of a OTL late WWII jet, look at its stats in comparison to the OTL Me262, P-80, Meteor, to name just a few and you will see it is comparable to aircraft coming into service in Wesworld.


Monday, October 14th 2013, 5:03am

If the the only justification for introducing a late-40ies jetfighter because you made other nations to introduce state of the art jetfighters then I wont carry on with this stupid what you want.

I just observe that especially those players who tend to nag about "realism"-issues are bending historical facts if it is benefical to them.

I remember the outcry when I tried to introduce an intermediate rifle calibre for Chosen...

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Daidalos" (Oct 14th 2013, 5:08am)


Monday, October 14th 2013, 1:53pm


And it's equivalent in performance (to be precise, it's actually inferior in speed and range) to the Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star, which first flew on January 8th, 1944.

The speed of the P-80C is superior to the Ouragan but that one first flew in 1948. The A and B versions are both slower so the Ouragan's speed is not inferior to that of the P-80. From what I can see, the Ouragan is a superior to all planes mentioned, except the Vampire's range.
------------------- Ouragan -- Vampire ---- Meteor ---- P-80A ----- Me 262 ----
------------------------------ F Mk.I ---- F Mk.III ---------------- A-1a -----
Weight ------------ 7404 kg -- 3891 kg ---- 6052 kg --- 5315 kg --- 6396 kg ---
Engine thrust ----- 22.2 kN -- 12.01 kN --- 10.68 kN -- 17.13 kN -- 8.83 kN ---
Speed ------------- 940 km/h - 869 km/h --- 793 km/h -- 898 km/h -- 870 km/h --
Rate of Climb ----- 38 m/s --- 21.8 m/s --- 20.2 m/s -- 23.3 m/s -- 20 m/s ----
Range ------------- 920 km --- 1174 km ---- 811 km ---- 860 km ---- 520 km ----

I was willing to ignore the Leduc thing, because the French were working on that around the start of WW2, but this is a clear post WW2 jet so the +0 rule applies to this one.


Monday, October 14th 2013, 2:52pm


Originally posted by Rooijen10


And it's equivalent in performance (to be precise, it's actually inferior in speed and range) to the Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star, which first flew on January 8th, 1944.

The speed of the P-80C is superior to the Ouragan but that one first flew in 1948. The A and B versions are both slower so the Ouragan's speed is not inferior to that of the P-80. From what I can see, the Ouragan is a superior to all planes mentioned, except the Vampire's range.
------------------- Ouragan -- Vampire ---- Meteor ---- P-80A ----- Me 262 ----
------------------------------ F Mk.I ---- F Mk.III ---------------- A-1a -----
Weight ------------ 7404 kg -- 3891 kg ---- 6052 kg --- 5315 kg --- 6396 kg ---
Engine thrust ----- 22.2 kN -- 12.01 kN --- 10.68 kN -- 17.13 kN -- 8.83 kN ---
Speed ------------- 940 km/h - 869 km/h --- 793 km/h -- 898 km/h -- 870 km/h --
Rate of Climb ----- 38 m/s --- 21.8 m/s --- 20.2 m/s -- 23.3 m/s -- 20 m/s ----
Range ------------- 920 km --- 1174 km ---- 811 km ---- 860 km ---- 520 km ----

I was willing to ignore the Leduc thing, because the French were working on that around the start of WW2, but this is a clear post WW2 jet so the +0 rule applies to this one.

See, Daidalos - this is the proper way to discuss an issue: with facts, figures, and rational debate.

Walter: Okay, I'll accept your points here, and I'll offer you a compromise. I will introduce a downgraded version of the Ouragan, using similar speed and climb statistics - say, 890 kph speed and 25 m/s climb. Then the later Ouragan II will use the historical numbers, when justifiable on the basis of what other countries are fielding.


Monday, October 14th 2013, 3:04pm

That seems a reasonable compromise.

Germany is working on several designs that might be comparable to the historical Ouragan, but they will not see light of day until sometime in 1945, and would enter service - if some or all of them do - until 1946 at the earliest.


Monday, October 14th 2013, 3:17pm

Well Brock, I gave you a hint that your proposed specs were too optimistic which could have caused you to cast doubts on your initial proposal and to do some more research.
Besides, with your attitude you shouldn't expect that I provide some fancy data sheets to you.

Fortunately the matter is clarified now with the parameters Rooijen posted.


Monday, October 14th 2013, 3:22pm

That's a fair compromise.

The Ouragan as originally posted was a bleeding-edge design, partly because of, IMHO the engine issue. It had a licence-built Nene engine historically and Brock, like SAE and Atlantis, is having to develop his own series of engines. However, even in WW the Nene is only at bench test stage and while having a production Nene is probably feasible for 1945 its probably not entirely realistic for a production-ready fighter for service use in 1945. So I feel any comparable fictionalised copy is probably slightly pushing things and also driving up the specs compared to the other 1945 jets which have lower-thrust engines.

As I've stated before, I don't pay too much attention to how an ahistorical or fictional design looks and the photo or plan of a real piece of kit to represent it. However, I will say that the Ouragan is a sleek aircraft, that's part of the problem, it looks so well designed and well built that it lacks the roughness of most early jets. All those early jets in Walters table, plus Soviet types, still had strong design connections to the late piston-engine designs.


Monday, October 14th 2013, 5:28pm


Originally posted by Daidalos
Well Brock, I gave you a hint that your proposed specs were too optimistic which could have caused you to cast doubts on your initial proposal and to do some more research.
Besides, with your attitude you shouldn't expect that I provide some fancy data sheets to you.

I beg your pardon, but you started your participation in this thread with several rather acerbic posts - which, frankly, appears to be your general style of posting here in Wesworld. In my response, I attempted to explain to you in polite terms the rationale for my choices, but your third post continued with the dismissive, mocking tone. You did not show any interest in debating the merits of the topic and you did not bring up any points of contention. You demonstrated a lack of interest in discussing the points I'd brought up (and appear to have completely missed the main body of my response in favor of cherry-picking a selection that you could ridicule). So yes, I gave you a bit of a backhand in response - a veiled warning for your future consideration. Let me make it more plain.

I, and most of the other players here, respond far better to a logical, reasoned argument made by a peer. That is what these Design boards are for: peer reviews. If you want to have a long and successful time on this board, I'd highly suggest that you reconsider your approach to dealing with others. Treat us respectfully, as peers, not with derision.


Monday, October 14th 2013, 6:50pm

What I said wasn't meant to be derisive, quite the opposite. You have most probably more expertise on military aviation and stuff than me. Therefore I don't start with discussing the basics over and over again but assume that if you post a late forties aircraft design to be introduced in the mid forties you know exactly what you are doing...but maybe that's too much of an allegation. Furthermore this is not the first time we have this kind of discussion and ignoring the validity of already discussed arguments makes me believe that there exists some kind of double standard on what is regarded as "realistic" or believable.

Concerning the facts I can't tell you anything you don't already know:

There is no World War in Wesworld and thus the necessity to force a costly state of the art technology into series production is doubtful. Peacetime armies tend to be quite reactionary in their equipment choice.

While the Ouragan wasn't awesome when it was introduced historically it has a layout (Ta-183/Tunnan-style) which is too modern for a mid-fourties jet.

You can see from the stats yourself that the initial proposal would ridiculously outperform any OTL design and while I dont wanna criticize just for the sake of it, I think even your second proposal is on the high end of the average.

To compensate for my hunnic impoliteness and inherent pessimism, which somehow forces me to focus on negative things more than on the positive aspects, I would like to say that I really enjoyed reading the story of those plane developments and appreciate the level of detail.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Daidalos" (Oct 14th 2013, 6:59pm)


Monday, October 14th 2013, 9:29pm

Just a freindly warning, yall play nice now ya hear?