WesWorld

Nice work Brock. An interesting template, one I might use if I get the time to do some analysis like this.

Indeed. A very well written article and a very useful outline.

Thanks. If anyone's interested, the original book, On Seas Contested, is a very good overview of all seven of the major navies involved in World War II. They're even coming out with a new volume which covers World War I.

...and I might also add, one of its authors occationally visits our site from time to time, Mr. Richard worth.

March 1
The new destroyer Duperré was laid down today in La Rochelle. The eighth ship in the Forbin or T43 destroyer class, Duperré commemorates one of the greatest, but also one of the least well-known, naval commanders of French history.

March 2
The Institut des hautes études cinématographiques was officially established today in Paris. Filmmaker Marcel L'Herbier will be the institute's first president.

March 3
The Manufacture de Machines du Haut-Rhin (Manurhin) company has announced the purchase of a license for the German Mauser G-11 rifle. The weapon, to be produced in 6.5mmx51 FAR, will equip the French paratroops and the Legion Etranger.

March 4
The Paris-Nice "Race to the Sun" bicycle race opened today in Paris.

March 6
Sous-Lieutenant Gustave Remy and his survey expedition has returned from the Mount Nimba region of Guinea. The sous-lieutenant was conducting extensive surveys of the region, which is under consideration by the French parliament for the creation of a nature preserve.

March 7
Lioré et Olivier has received a contract from the French military to design and construct an unspecified number of models of a new ramjet testbed, to be dubbed the LeO-620, in conjunction with Fonderie de Ruelle. This research project is intended to help assess the use of ramjet-powered vehicles in the interception of high-flying bombers.

March 8 - Le Canard enchaîné
What the Bird Has to Say: In this week's satirical cartoons, the French leftists challenge the center-right government to offer further support to Yugoslavian Unionists.

March 9
Construction on the Kossou Dam on the Bandara River in Cote d'Ivoire began today.

March 10
The Marine Nationale confirmed an order for four more Forbin-class contre-torpilleurs, to be named Indomptable, Tonnant, Infatigable, and Inébranlable. The first of this quartet of ships will be laid down in May. In other naval news, the Marine Nationale is debating whether or not to rebuild or dispose of the nine remaining Audaciaux-class destroyers, currently in the port of Brest in reserve.

March 13
The cruiser Temeraire and the frigate Tran Nhat Duat departed today for a port visit to Japan, followed by Vladivostok.

March 14
Three tank prototypes were paraded today before the staff of the Arme blindée cavalerie (Armoured Cavalry Branch) at Saumer. Present for the demonstration were three of AMX's proposed Char-13 "Masséna" tanks, a forty-ton medium type armed with a 90mm gun. Designed on the basis of an enlarged Char-8 Montbrun, the Masséna is reportedly to enter production in June or July of this year.

Of perhaps more interest was the never-before-seen Char-11 "Jourdan" heavy tank. This prototype example, built of wood and rough steel by FCM, weighs in at a massive seventy tons, and totes a Canon CA 100mm Mle1943 gun. (The prototype has yet to be armed with a working gun, but weights simulate the final weapon.) This tank, designed in the vein of previous French heavy tanks, is perhaps one of the largest tanks in the world. FCM designed the "Jourdan" using company funds, and is hoping to sell the type to the French Army, which has not purchased a new heavy tank in the last seven years.

Finally, Somua displayed the Char-14 "Maunoury" prototype, based on their earlier failed proposal for an airborne tank. The Char-14 is instead an amphibious tank, equipped with the turret and 75mm/L42 gun from a Char-6A light tank. Weighing in at fifteen tons, the Char-14 is reportedly designed to swim at a speed of five kilometers an hour. It is expected to enter testing in September, a process which is expected to continue until late 1945.

For general information, here are the specifications for the tanks mentioned above.

Quoted

[SIZE=3]FCM Char-11 "Jourdan" Heavy Tank[/SIZE]
Crew: 6 (commander, driver, gunner, loader, loader, assistant driver)
Dimensions:
-- Length: 7.5m (hull); 11.5m (includes gun)
-- Width: 3.8m
-- Height: 3.2m (to turret top)
Weight: 70 metric tons
Armament:
-- 100mm/L57
-- 12.7mm MG (flexible mount)
-- 12.7mm MG (coaxial)
Engine: Alsthom/SACM MD.12/40I V-12 diesel, 820hp
Transmission: Manual, six forward and three reverse
Suspension: Auteuil (modified torsion bar / Belleville washer)
Protection:
-- Turret: 170mm (face), 90-120mm (sides), 35mm (top)
-- Mantlet: 135mm
-- Glacis: 50 to 100mm (sloped)
-- Hull: 90mm (forward sides), 80mm (aft sides), 40mm (hull top), 40mm (hull bottom)
Power Weight Ratio: 11.7 hp / tonne
Equipment: Nice-450 rangefinder, gunner tank periscope, tactical radio
Constructors: FCM
Speed: 35kph (road), 15kph (offroad)
Range: 160km

Quoted

[SIZE=3]AMX Char-13 "Masséna" Medium Tank[/SIZE]
Crew: 4 (commander, gunner, loader, driver)
Dimensions:
-- Length: 6.6m (hull); 9.5m (includes gun)
-- Width: 3.1m
-- Height: 2.7m (to turret top)
Weight: 40 metric tons
Armament:
-- 90mm/L55
-- 6.5mm cupola MG
Engine: Alsthom/SACM MD.12/40I V-12 diesel, 820hp
Transmission: Manual
Suspension: Auteuil (modified torsion bar / Belleville washer)
Protection:
-- Turret: 120mm sloped (face), 40mm (sides), 20mm (top)
-- Mantlet: 105mm
-- Glacis: 50 to 80mm (sloped)
-- Hull: 60mm (forward sides), 40mm (aft sides), 15mm (hull top), 30mm (hull bottom)
Power Weight Ratio: 20.5 hp / tonne
Equipment: Nice-450 rangefinder, gunner tank periscope, vertical main gun stabilization, tactical radio
Constructors: AMX (primary developer), FCM
Speed: 60kph (road), 30kph (offroad)
Range: 560km with external tanks

Quoted

[SIZE=3]Somua Char-14 "Maunory" Light Amphibious Tank[/SIZE]
Crew: 3 (driver, commander, gunner/loader)
Dimensions:
-- Length: 7.0m (hull)
-- Width: 3.2m
-- Height: 2.5m
Weight: 20 metric tons
Armament:
-- 75mm/L42 with 40 rounds
-- 6.5mm MG (flexible)
Engine: V12 diesel, 285hp
Transmission: Manual
Suspension: torsion bar
Protection:
-- Turret: 20mm sloped (face), 14mm (sides), 5mm (top)
-- Mantlet: 20mm
-- Glacis: 10 to 20mm (sloped)
-- Hull: 20mm (forward sides), 15mm (aft sides), 13mm (hull top), 10mm (hull bottom)
Power Weight Ratio: 14.25 hp / tonne
Equipment: Tactical radio
Constructors: Somua
Speed: 45kph (road), 5kph (water)
Range: 350km road

Hi!

You state those tanks are using turbodiesel engines. Can you please provide some more detail on these engines? What historical design are they based on? What generation of turbodiesels do we "see" here?

To the best of my knowledge the first turbodiesel engine for a train was build in 1934, the first for a truck in 1953 and the first car was a Mercedes 300 SD in 1977. (All german, of course.)

I cannot find any reference on the first tank with a turbodiesel.

Thanks.

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Hi!

You state those tanks are using turbodiesel engines. Can you please provide some more detail on these engines? What historical design are they based on? What generation of turbodiesels do we "see" here?

To the best of my knowledge the first turbodiesel engine for a train was build in 1934, the first for a truck in 1953 and the first car was a Mercedes 300 SD in 1977. (All german, of course.)

I cannot find any reference on the first tank with a turbodiesel.

Thanks.

Ooh, that's a typo. Thanks for pointing that out.

The original French diesel engines used in tanks were Berliet engines of 91 horsepower, license-built variants of the British Ricardo diesel engine (which was historically introduced in 1927 on the Vickers Medium Mark I). Two battalions of diesel-powered FCM 36s were ordered. France also acquired tank diesel engines from Switzerland for experimentation (the Swiss company Saurer produced diesel engines for the Polish 7TP tank). By 1937, when France purchased the AT-37 / FT -37 / TT-37, they acquired and license-built the Russian 600hp V12 engine used therein - a 38.8L V12 diesel. Initial local production was handled by a partnership of Alsthom and Hispano-Suiza. These engines produced about 15.5 horsepower per liter of engine displacement.

The two companies then collaborated, under Alsthom's leadership, to introduce their own 600hp variant in 1940, which became the MD.12/36 diesel used on the Char-8 Montbrun medium tank in 1941. This engine was a 36L V12, using the same cylinder size and a lot of parts from the Hispano-Suiza 12Y and 12Z aero-engines. Power stayed at 600hp but achieved 16.7hp / liter of engine displacement. As noted, this was the engine used for most of the French Char-8 Montbrun medium tanks and the associated vehicle families. With the success of the MD.12/36, Alsthom went on to develop a very close variant, the MD.12/40, which increased the engine displacement to 40L. Power rose to 680hp, and the MD.12/40 was installed on the Char-8A3 Montbrun, the variant which appeared in December 1943. However, production of the MD.12/40 is going to rapidly switch over to the MD.12/40I variant, which was redesigned to use fuel injection instead of carburetors. This results in the MD.12/40I rising to 820hp.

Below are all my notes on the Alsthom diesel engine lineup:

Quoted

Alsthom/SACM Diesel Engines
MD.12/36: In 1937, Alsthom was asked to design a diesel tank engine for the French Army. Alsthom considered several alternatives, but finally decided on a compact V-12 layout engine. The cylinders were three liters each (the same volume as the Hispano-Suiza 12Y engine), and averaged 16.7hp per liter. The resulting engine, with a total volume of 36L, first ran in 1939 and generated 600hp. It was first used on the French Char-8 Montbrun medium tank in 1941. The MD.12/36 was used as the developmental basis of two follow-on engines.
MD.8/24: A V-8 variant of the MD.12/36 diesel engine. This engine produced approximately 400hp. The MD.8/24 was never used in a tank, but powered the Camions Bernard DI-8B tank transporter.
MD.12/40, MD.12/40I: A 40-liter V-12 layout diesel engine based on the MD.12/36. The cylinders were slightly increased from 3L to 3.3L each, with the total volume rising to 40L. The engine produced around 17hp per liter, a bit higher than the preceding MD.12/36, for a total of 680hp. The MD.12/40 appeared in the Char-8A3 Montbrun tank from 1942 onward. The MD.12/40I, with fuel injection, increased the horsepower to 20.5hp per liter, for a total of 820hp.
MD.6/20I: A V-6 variant of the MD.12/40I diesel engine. This engine produces a total of 340hp. MD.6/20 engines were retrofitted onto Char-6 tanks from late 1944 onward. The engine was tuned more for fuel efficiency than for power, resulting in a slightly lower horsepower per litre ratio of 17.1 hp per litre.
MD.12/108: A V-12 diesel engine developed by Alstom for railway locomotives. Each cylinder had a volume of approximately nine liters, and produced about 9hp per liter for a total of 972hp. This engine was primarily used in diesel shunters, and the larger MD.16/144T was used in mainline locomotives.
MD.16/144T: A turbocharged V-16 diesel engine used in railway locomotives, producing approximately 1,700hp.

As for turbocharged diesels on tanks, I have found that the Soviets put a V-2SN diesel engine, a supercharged version of their Kharkiv V-2, on the experimental KV-3 tank in 1940.

These three new vehicles are interesting, each in their own way.

The FCM Char-11 "Jourdan" Heavy Tank seems reminiscent of the British Conqueror or US M-103 heavy tanks of the immediate postwar period, or even the Soviet JS3 - though perhaps heavier and better armored. It's great weight would restrict its movements, and it has a poor power-to-weight ratio, IMHO, at little more than 11 HP per ton. Sitting at the edge of the battlefield and using its heavy gun to pick off opposing tanks at a distance, I could see this vehicle as being very formidable. If forced to operate where hostile air power is available though, I see its mobility issues as a serious drawback.


The AMX Char-13 "Masséna" Medium Tank, in my mind, makes better sense. It is not far out in size from some of the projects pursued by France in the immediate postwar period - the ARL44, the FCM50 and the AMX50 - all of which were 50-ton tanks armed with a 90mm gun. The power-to-weight ratio is better at about 20 HP per ton, but I would still be a little concerned for bridges and roads with a column of 40-ton vehicles. One thing that I personally would prefer to see is a coaxial machinegun in addition to the one mounted at the cupola. If there is infantry in the neighborhood with decent weaponry, hanging outside the turret could be dangerous, and without a coaxial machinegun, there is no way to swat the infantry.


The Somua Char-14 "Maunory" Light Amphibious Tank is an interesting concept, but I would have concerns about it on the battlefield. Yes, it is supposed to be amphibious, the power-to-weight ratio is not that bad, it won't crush bridges and isn't supposed to go toe-to-toe with any sort of battle tank. But other than reconnaissance, what is it supposed to do? The gun is far larger than a real recce vehicle ought to need, and might tempt its crew to get into a fire fight that the vehicle's armor cannot stand; the armor protection is minimal. One alternative that comes to mind would be to use the chassis as the basis of an amphibious troop carrier instead of a tank, or at least scale back the gun to something that might not tempt its crews to do more than intended.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
The FCM Char-11 "Jourdan" Heavy Tank seems reminiscent of the British Conqueror or US M-103 heavy tanks of the immediate postwar period, or even the Soviet JS3 - though perhaps heavier and better armored. It's great weight would restrict its movements, and it has a poor power-to-weight ratio, IMHO, at little more than 11 HP per ton. Sitting at the edge of the battlefield and using its heavy gun to pick off opposing tanks at a distance, I could see this vehicle as being very formidable. If forced to operate where hostile air power is available though, I see its mobility issues as a serious drawback.

I think I'd probably agree with that assessment - and yet the Char-11 is leagues more maneuverable than many of the heavy tanks France has designed and built over the years. For instance, the FCM F1... In any case, it's an interesting design study. I based the specs a bit off the US T-29 experimental heavy and the German Tiger II. I might consider something more in the IS-2 vein, though.

Going back to the discussion of engines earlier, I might consider putting together a turbocharged version of the MD.12/40I to power the Jourdan. I figure that'd boost power by about 20% or so, resulting in a 1,000 hp engine and a 14.3hp/tonne ratio.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
The AMX Char-13 "Masséna" Medium Tank, in my mind, makes better sense. It is not far out in size from some of the projects pursued by France in the immediate postwar period - the ARL44, the FCM50 and the AMX50 - all of which were 50-ton tanks armed with a 90mm gun. The power-to-weight ratio is better at about 16 HP per ton, but I would still be concerned for bridges and roads with a column of 50-ton vehicles. One thing that I personally would prefer to see is a coaxial machinegun in addition to the one mounted at the cupola. If there is infantry in the neighborhood with decent weaponry, hanging outside the turret could be dangerous, and without a coaxial machinegun, there is no way to swat the infantry.

The Char-13 is actually forty tonnes, not fifty - and so its power-to-weight ration is 20.5 horsepower per ton, as noted in the specs.

I'll give some thought to what you say about a coaxial machine gun. The original specs I drew up had a 20mm gun mounted next to the 90mm gun (as was done with a number of post-WWII tanks) but I think it got removed with some of the fiddling I did. Still, a 12.7mm coaxial MG wouldn't be amiss, I think.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
The Somua Char-14 "Maunory" Light Amphibious Tank is an interesting concept, but I would have concerns about it on the battlefield. Yes, it is supposed to be amphibious, the power-to-weight ratio is not that bad, it won't crush bridges and isn't supposed to go toe-to-toe with any sort of battle tank. But other than reconnaissance, what is it supposed to do? The gun is far larger than a real recce vehicle ought to need, and might tempt its crew to get into a fire fight that the vehicle's armor cannot stand; the armor protection is minimal. One alternative that comes to mind would be to use the chassis as the basis of an amphibious troop carrier instead of a tank, or at least scale back the gun to something that might not tempt its crews to do more than intended.

I'm not sure I agree with the reasoning that the large gun will tempt the crew into fights they cannot win. I'd say that the gun would give the vehicle the opportunity to survive an encounter with an otherwise far superior opponent.

March 15 - Le Canard enchaîné
What the Bird Has to Say: in the editorial section, authors commented on the recently confirmed plans by the German Army for a draw-down of forces.

March 17
The Société d'Exploitation Minière de Fidji was established today to open copper mining in the Namosi Province of the Viti Levu island of Fidji. The company plans to build a mine at Waisoi, which is believed to have significant copper deposits.

March 18
The cruiser Temeraire and the Indochinese training frigate Tran Nhat Duat arrived at Edo, Japan today for the start of a port visit.

March 20
President Theisman unveiled a proposal today to construct a new meter-gauge railway connection between Bamako, the easternmost point of the Dakar-Niger Railway, and Bobo-Dioulasso, a town on the Abidjan-Ouagadougou Railway; a second line will link Kankan and Bamako. If approved, the 7.9 million franc project will link the three meter-gauge railways of French West Africa by 1948.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
March 15 - Le Canard enchaîné
What the Bird Has to Say: in the editorial section, authors commented on the recently confirmed plans by the German Army for a draw-down of forces.

I am curious. Were their comments pro or con?

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
March 15 - Le Canard enchaîné
What the Bird Has to Say: in the editorial section, authors commented on the recently confirmed plans by the German Army for a draw-down of forces.

I am curious. Were their comments pro or con?

Some of both.

On the one hand, the French leftists are cheered by the idea of a more peaceful, less militarized Europe. They're irritated that it seems to have occurred as a result of two center-right political parties in France and Germany. Their also shocked at the number of German panzer divisions... particularly in relation to the number of French armoured divisions. "Sixteen to nine? Gnashing of teeth!" (Not that they actually care about or support the military - it's one of the ways they can attack the Theisman administration.)

Typical leftists. Find something to bash their opponents with whether it is against their tenets or not - just to have something to stir up emotions. Talk big, do less.

Ok. The turbodiesel thing was a typo.

Now I am left irritated as of the engine history you gave. Is it meant to be fictional? I couldn't find anything on an MD 12/40 engine on english wiki or google in general.

Just for the record: I am highly concerned because of those tank designs. They seem to resemble too much of OTL post- war designs. Doing research and voice my concerns is pain in the ass if you only have a smart phone. So minimum I can do is record my concerns so nobody can say they were accepted later. As far as I am concerned the tank designs posted above are design studies at best, probably years ahead of serial production in WesWorld.

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Ok. The turbodiesel thing was a typo.

Now I am left irritated as of the engine history you gave. Is it meant to be fictional? I couldn't find anything on an MD 12/40 engine on english wiki or google in general.

Yes, the MD.12/40 is fictional - I didn't see much cause to use the Maybach engines that France was historically designing for in 1944.

If it helps, the MD.12/40I is basically a French counterpart to the Meteor tank engine.

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Just for the record: I am highly concerned because of those tank designs. They seem to resemble too much of OTL post- war designs. Doing research and voice my concerns is pain in the ass if you only have a smart phone. So minimum I can do is record my concerns so nobody can say they were accepted later. As far as I am concerned the tank designs posted above are design studies at best, probably years ahead of serial production in WesWorld.

Very good! You've guessed what I was up to. I was curious if anyone aside from Bruce was actually paying attention to my news and was willing to comment on it.

Most of the reason I created the specs as I did was to cause people to actually take notice of it so I'd have the opportunity to discourse about why it's completely illogical. That said, the designs themselves are pretty much period, with the exception of the pie-in-the-sky Char-14.

The Char-11 prototype is basically a cross between the 1944 Tiger II and the American T29, both of which appeared in 1944. So it's not a post-war tank design. I could have done much better if I'd used the 1943-dated IS-2 as the basis of my design: 122mm gun, 46 tonnes, faster speed, and slightly better armour. So, in comparison to the tanks historically introduced in 1943 and 1944, the Jourdan is fairly significantly overweight for the capabilities it provides.

Not that I'm actually going to bother improving it, however. I don't expect anyone to have paid attention this closely to French doctrine, but the Char-11 is actually completely opposite to French armoured doctrine, which opposes big heavily-armoured, slow, massively-armoured tanks, particularly when they're only acquired in small production runs. That's why the French Army didn't fund the development: they don't have a place for it, and don't really want it. Basically, the Arme blindée cavalerie, the French Army's tank branch, wants to achieve a sort of utility through economy of scale and the reduction of vehicle types within those units. Ideally, France only wants one tank - and the Char-11 isn't it.

So what to make of all this?