WesWorld

January:

8.January
Chengdu Aircraft Industry and Azcarte from Mexico signed a contract about the license production of the T-5 transport aircraft. It will be produced in China under the name C-5. This aircraft should replace the elder SAC-52 until the EW-800 will be ready for production.

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Originally posted by parador
January:

8.January
Chengdu Aircraft Industry and Azcarte from Mexico signed a contract about the license production of the T-5 transport aircraft. It will be produced in China under the name C-5. This aircraft should replace the elder SAC-52 until the EW-800 will be ready for production.

It was my impression that the Azcarte T-5 was a license-built Douglas DC-5. Thus Azcarte wouldn't have the legal right to sell the license to the T-5 to anyone (or build aircraft in Mexico for a foreign customer) without the explicit permission to do so by Douglas.

I guess someone will be sued by Douglas for this.

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Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by parador
January:

8.January
Chengdu Aircraft Industry and Azcarte from Mexico signed a contract about the license production of the T-5 transport aircraft. It will be produced in China under the name C-5. This aircraft should replace the elder SAC-52 until the EW-800 will be ready for production.

It was my impression that the Azcarte T-5 was a license-built Douglas DC-5. Thus Azcarte wouldn't have the legal right to sell the license to the T-5 to anyone (or build aircraft in Mexico for a foreign customer) without the explicit permission to do so by Douglas.

is it so ??? I thought the hint was only that it is the OTL DC-5

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Originally posted by parador
is it so ??? I thought the hint was only that it is the OTL DC-5

Per this thread:

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Quoted

Azcarte
This firm is a wholly-owned Douglas Corporation subsidiary, create for and run by Douglas for the sole purpose of supplying the Mexican market with its products. This firm handles sub-assembly of all DC-2, DC-3 and C-47 aircraft needed by Mexico using Douglas supplied kits. Note: The Azcarte developed 10-man glider is moved to Aviacion Mexicana. As a subsidiary of Douglas, they do not directly compete with their parent company (particularly in foreign exports).

Quoted

Name: Azcarte T-5 Airliner
Revised Specs: None needed, extra range is a result of an extra fuel tank to meet Mexican specifications.
Notes: This is the Douglas DC-5 built under licence from Douglas supplied kits with some minor fabrication of control surfaces etc. It enters production in mid-1940 to coincide with Douglas’ own production of the new type for the US and world markets.

What I understand from these statements is that Azcarte has no rights to license aircraft to anyone: Azcarte is just a company that assembles kits sent along from Douglas. Douglas makes most of the pieces for the DC-5, ships the pieces to Mexico, and Azcarte manufactures a few minor pieces and then assembles them into a complete plane. Azcarte has no rights to sell aircraft outside of Mexico without getting approval from Douglas - because the designs are 100% Douglas.

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Originally posted by Brockpaine

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Originally posted by parador
is it so ??? I thought the hint was only that it is the OTL DC-5

Per this thread:

Yes ... now it's clear !!!! I have to agree with you

Right. So you'd need to ask TheCanadian for permission to license-build the design, not Foxy.

*Shrugs.*

No prob ... still done ... wait for the answer

Umm, that thread is not canon. The final arbriter was to be Hooman, and if he gave the ok, then the plane can be licensed by Mexico.

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Originally posted by Desertfox
Umm, that thread is not canon. The final arbriter was to be Hooman, and if he gave the ok, then the plane can be licensed by Mexico.

"If he gave the ok." Has Hoo given you an okay for this? Hoo's not informed the other moderators of any final decision regarding Mexican aviation, so you shouldn't try to give permission to Parador to use a plane design that you don't yet have permission from Hoo and TheCanadian to use.

I'd like to hear what Hoo has to say before I contribute further.

Gents, don't mix things up. I have nothing to do with the thread quoted above. That summary on Mexican Aviation changes was not initiated by me, nor aligned with me. It happened BEFORE I took over regarding Mexican Aviation to work on OOB with Foxy starting 1939, so it was put together when other mods by help of other board members worked on what is known as the "Mexican Aviation Issue". Where Mexico got her material from is not my responsibility nor my concern as long as Foxy aligned with any foreign power (player) involved - which he did up to where we got. Note I entirely focused on numbers, balanced set-up and types of planes in case there had been technical issues raised before. So whether or not Mexico is in a position to permit licenceses be sold to other countries is not my duty to check.

On the issue:
From what I read in said thread Azcarte may not have the permission to pass on any licence they got. However, the piece presented on the DC-5/T-5 is not really specific regarding this matter. Probably Azcarte as a company wholly owned by Douglas is indeed allowed to do it and Douglas as owner will gain more licence fees, can't tell. Probably TheCanadian or Foxy can provide the full text of the whole licence treaty (if it really is a licence permitted by Douglas given that Azcarte is a 100% daughter of Douglas and probably would not really need a licence at all)?

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Gents, don't mix things up. I have nothing to do with the thread quoted above. That summary on Mexican Aviation changes was not initiated by me, nor aligned with me. It happened BEFORE I took over regarding Mexican Aviation to work on OOB with Foxy starting 1939, so it was put together when other mods by help of other board members worked on what is known as the "Mexican Aviation Issue". Where Mexico got her material from is not my responsibility nor my concern as long as Foxy aligned with any foreign power (player) involved - which he did up to where we got. Note I entirely focused on numbers, balanced set-up and types of planes in case there had been technical issues raised before. So whether or not Mexico is in a position to permit licenceses be sold to other countries is not my duty to check.

On the issue:
From what I read in said thread Azcarte may not have the permission to pass on any licence they got. However, the piece presented on the DC-5/T-5 is not really specific regarding this matter. Probably Azcarte as a company wholly owned by Douglas is indeed allowed to do it and Douglas as owner will gain more licence fees, can't tell. Probably TheCanadian or Foxy can provide the full text of the whole licence treaty (if it really is a licence permitted by Douglas given that Azcarte is a 100% daughter of Douglas and probably would not really need a licence at all)?

Trying to think through this logically: if Azcarte is a 100% subsidiary of Douglas, then I can probably agree that they might not technically need a license. At the same time, if they're fully-owned by Douglas, then I don't see them having the right to sell licenses to another country (since they'd just say, 'Oh, go talk to our owners, Douglas. They'll be able to set you right up.') If Azcarte is owned by someone other than Douglas and just licenses Douglas designs, then I'd still consider it extremely impolite not to refer the matter back to the originator of the design - in this case, the United States. (For instance, Chile license-builds the F4U Corsair; I would not presume to license the F4U to somebody else, because it's obviously not Chile's design. But the ENAER Coati is Chile's design, and I can do with it what I please.)

I was chiefly interested to know whether or not you and Foxy had changed anything in regards to the material currently posted about Azcarte and its ownership. From your statement, it sounds like Foxy and TheCanadian need to work that out between them and come to an agreement.

Yes, I think it is between the two. I was working only on OOB until we got stuck as Foxy was quite occupied with other duties....

If there is a problem, then we delete this point and the deal never happened. No problem.

I don't think there needs to be any deletion - I'm sure it'll all work out.

Hepu Air Force Base (testing ground for new aircrafts of the chinese airforce), 21. January 1943, 10:13pm local time


Their landing lights turned-on only seconds before they touched the ground. The only lights on the completely dark Hepu air force base were the green threshold lights of the runway and the taxiway edge glowed in light blue. From the cockpit the whole air force base seemed so dark and deserted at night as the south china sea, they had just flown over. The plane - black as the night from which it was been suspended - touched down in the second quarter of the runway of the air force base, to keep the roll distance as short as possible. The plane followed the taxiway north, headed for a number of large aircraft hangars and disappeared right in the first hangar. Seconds later the hall doors were closed, while the engines were stopped. Guards with dogs searched the area immediately after unauthorized observers. In the light of the interior lighting of the huge hangars appeared that the plane landed was a Shennong ST-205 "sungsho" - anti-submarine bomber. The latest development of the Shennong Aviation Company. Maintenance technicians immediately began a thorough review of the aircraft. A short time later, the cockpit was open, and two men climbed down the short ladder.

When Captain Lai Ming-Tang and Captain Lu Ji-Chun stepped off the plane, they were welcomed by General Sun Lien-chung (Commander of the Air Force Base), General Fu Zso-yi (Commander of Anti Submarine Comitee), Li Pin-hsien (CEO of Shennong Aviation Ltd.) and Air Marshal Yu Linxiang (CiC of the 3rd Naval Air Fleet).

"Glad to see you, guys" said General Sun Lien-Chung, shook hands with them and gave them each a cup of tea.

"It is fortunate that we have finally made it," said Lai Ming Tang. "I no longer felt my legs ." The two officers were obviously exhausted, but they smiled kindly as General Fu Zso-yi all together made known.

General Sun Lien-chung and the others waited patiently while Lai Ming Tang and Lu Ji-Chun made the prescribed tour around the aircraft and discussed with the technicians some small problems that were encountered on the flight. Then the crew was driven to the headquarters building, where sandwiches and more tea was waiting for them and where they could discuss the problems encountered during the test flight.

23.January
The chinese submarine U-28 is missing. It was on a patrol in the South China Sea. The boat is one out of the old S-Class, which the chinese navy acquired in 1938 from Italy.

27.January
The search for the missing submarine is extended. In addition to ships now also aircrafts and are now involved in the search. No wreckage or survivors were found.

28.January
The submarine rescue ship HICMS Yibin has found several oil stains and some debris on the surface. It is feared that the U-boat sank.


29.January
The High Command of the Chinese Navy officially announces the loss of U-28. Meanwhile, it seems certain that the submarine sunk with its entire crew.
In response to the loss of U-28, the chinese navy leadership decided to scrap all submarines of the old S-Class.

OOC - nice touch with the backstory regarding the decision to scrap these older boats.