WesWorld

Original WesWorld being a mix of historical and fictional powers led to friction time and again whenever solid facts and fantasy collided or when different level of detail required comparison. Using our real world again simplifies the use of maps and names but again there are only so many nations that are worth playing in a naval oriented simulation, so many useful historical designs of ships, planes, tanks, trucks and equipment of all kind that collisions are again inevitable. Providing interesting powers to play for an anticipated player base of 20 is difficult. So, IMHO, WesWorld2 shall be launched in a purely fictional world to provide comparable (not identical in terms of power!) starting positions for all participants and to limit hindsight to a level that cannot be avoided.

The use of a fictional world raises one big question: Which one?
On first glimpse it looks easy enough to take a white sheet of paper and generate the outlines of some continents and islands. However, this may not suffice given our experience with details that some players like. Drawing a map from scratch is really tough work if you consider all the small details, chains of islands and archipelagoes, all mountain ranges, rivers, lakes and the like that would be required. Of course a general map would not need all details to be good enough for use and minor details could be left to players in control of specific nations. But, as an example, islands in strategic positions need to be known from the start. We also need to consider that some potential players may be interested in participation but lack time, knowledge or interest to generate details such as mountain ranges or cities. Forcing them to deal with such issues may drive them away, but leaving those details aside will make things difficult for other players interested in interaction (e.g. war) but using a different level of detail.

As a result it may be a good idea to check if there are fictional worlds out there that can be used, e.g. from role playing games like Dungeons&Dragons (e.g. the world of Abeir-Toril used for the Forgotten Realms setting) or from novels like the Belgariad saga. Probably one can be used as-is (minus all the magical stuff if any) or can be altered to fit our needs. It may also be an option to generate a new world by combining several of such maps, as individual maps available in the web (e.g. like Faerun - a continent in the Forgotten Realms world of Abeir-Toril of D&D origin) nor the map belonging to the Belgariad is large enough by itself but provides a good level of detail for individual continents. Internet sources like the Forgotten Realms wiki (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Toril) may help to provide lots of details on individual countries, country ranges etc.

If our WesWorld community agrees we should nominate somebody or a group of (potential) players to do some research and launch a world creation project. Your take?

I don't really like the concept of a fictional world having been involved with failed attempts at starting games with such worlds. There are however some ways it can be done.

The "best" method that the Navalism attempts at a fictional world hit on was using the Civilization IV mapmaker. For those who dont know, each game takes place on a randomly generated map (unless a pre-defined senario is chosen). These maps can be accessed and modified, and given that they are made up of a X-by-Y grid, distance is relatively easy to calculate. With a sufficiently large grid, a very detailed map can be made.

I see no merits in creating a totally fictional world. That's not what I'm interested in playing.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
I see no merits in creating a totally fictional world. That's not what I'm interested in playing.

Ditto. If I wanted to play in Magicalfantasyland, I'd have joined Navalism when I was invited. The more like OTL the next game is, the happier I'll be!

I'm a little bit undecided..

Thoughts about Real world:

• Wesworld2 could end as a pure copy of Wesworld
  
• map problem solved
  
• OTL history or fictional history ?
  
• additional continents possible like atlantis in original Wesworld ???
  
• again only a few strong navies
  

Thoughts about fictional world:

• how will the world look like
  
• how many countries
  
• common history or separate history for every country ?
  
• using the world map but a fictional universe ?
  

IMHO setting up a fictional world has its own challenges which may be greater than just going with something close to OTL. After all, with OTL we at least have a frame of reference to work with for population, naval strength, economic strength, resources and access to them, level of industrialization, ability to build ships, etc. With a fictional world we would have to figure all that out whereas if we remained close to OTL then the initial setup is easier.

From my experience in N-verse, a totally new world would be very difficult to implement. WW (ie Atalantis) is about as radical as you want to go. Best idea would be to stick with the world as it is and just have totally different countries.

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian
IMHO setting up a fictional world has its own challenges which may be greater than just going with something close to OTL. After all, with OTL we at least have a frame of reference to work with for population, naval strength, economic strength, resources and access to them, level of industrialization, ability to build ships, etc. With a fictional world we would have to figure all that out whereas if we remained close to OTL then the initial setup is easier.

Well, those frame references are what I fear. If we stick to them we run into quite the same troubles we had with Original WesWorld: There are only 6-8 powers really worth playing when it gets to navies or industrial power in general - and all players getting one of the rest will face same frustration that led to the discussion we currently have on population as industrial factor. Even if we build up fictional states by cluing together (parts of) historical ones - think SAE - part of the problem will pop up. In example, for the SAE it is population numbers that you could argue about over and over again. You could sum up what historical numbers are available for all parts of the Empire, but that probably is not good enough. The much higher level of industrialization in the SAE, compared to its historical parts, shall have an impact on population - but that is very difficult to account for without detailed knowledge about how poulations grows must be put in relation to industrialization in general. It's a field of science of its own.

As a result the player of such power would have to define its population, simple as is. But then we would loose the historical data reference and mix history with fantasy.

Why not go with a fictional map instead? Instead of saying nay right from the start, have you checked the link on Abeir-Toril I added in my initial thread strter?

In that articles second paragraph there is a link to "Amn". Hit it. The link leads you to the description of a small country, probably the size of the Netherlands, with all the details you need to know, including what kind of ore, gems, grain and other goods are imported/exported. Cancel "magic items" from the list and there you go. You will also find detailed information on individual cities, places and how many people of various races live there (e.g. read "humans" as "European/North Americans", "Halflings" as "Black Africans" and "half-orcs" as "Asian").

Of course population numbers for cities are too small for a modern world (D&D is medieval after all) but we can either add a modifier (simply add a "0") or ignore it in case our rules are not based on population numbers in general.

Note also that this Forgotten Realms wiki is not the only source in the Net on Amn (or other countries or towns in Toril, like Waterdeep etc.). You will find lots of additional maps, information etc. The level of detail is actually pretty good, though it may vary, thus requiring a detailed check.

I think I will keep "magic items" on the list.

If we were to use Toril, I guess it's time for me to dig up Volo's (if I remember his name correctly) guidebooks...

I too am not in favour of a fictional world. Once you start entering a fantasy geography and historiography you let in a chain of events which might get out of control in terms of storylines and player intentions. Of course making any sort of infrastructure/ economic base then becomes more of an artifical process.

Also, how many current players post news and background info on a regular basis now? We know very little about Atlantis, Iberia, Nordmark or the SAE or how they work even now. We accept what is there but we don't understand how it functions, generally much WW history has only been written in the last 5 Sim Years or so. The fictional nations do seem to lack the clarity required in the current game. Any WW2 without a sound player-built history and backstory and future developments planned and communicated just isn't going to make sense and will lead to problems.

I think while Hoo raises some valid points in general in regards to different playing fields. However, that is real life I'm afraid. Peru can never outbuild the USA, Argentina can't match Russia's potential, Lichtenstien cannot build an army the size of France's etc. That is what makes player smaller countries sometimes more playable, the element of economy. To somehow make it so every player has 25 factories and a massive empire is going to make WW2 dead and boring as we all try to match each other.

Here is my proposal;
I think we should reset to a set historical time on real earth. Maybe 1900 or 1904 so it avoids the Great War and gives a run up to the Dreadnought era (and allows time for aviation tech to start from scratch). Everyone gets whatever was built before that era OTL as a basis. [Kirk has mentioned an 1880 start, personaly I find that too earl but an 1890s start would be interesting too].

We then need to plan the player base but allow for future expansion, there are probably enough nations to go round for the active membership we have now while leaving the smallest nations as NPCs. They could be updated each year by a mod team to keep them up to date until a player is found for them. Also be starting pre- Great War then most European and Great Powers would retain their Empires (we could work out adjustments perhaps for Spain etc.) and that would remove the problem of the ex-colonies now left at the bottom of the heap in WW with 1-2 factories each.

I think the great shame was letting Cleito lapse, it took away one of the foundations of the game and the sensible limits it imposed. Once it was killed off the incremental madness began and we've never reigned back on construction ever since. I'd like to see some kind of international treaty, perhaps something that came out of the Hauge Conventions?

Historical nations only, or some selected semi-historical nations if they have a good OTL basis (absorbed teritories etc) but generally keeping the background OTL timeline intact so we don't have to reinvent much of the past and leave ourselves wondering what resources or populations are there. From the start-date on all nations will have a freer development, as even in WW folks like Hitler, Stalin, Lenin etc. have still had to be 'dealt with' and the politics of the post-war era have impressed themselves upon much of the players ever since and an early enough restart (1900-04) removes most of the OTL Alliance system so players are freer to choose allies themselves.

I still find much of the original start-up of WW worked well and offers a good basis, but some of the fictional stuff just never really got off the ground to offer the same kind of realism and the post Great War effects have been destabilising. So really we should build on that solid basis rather than drawing up a new world.

I do know the Aber-Toril world, and the Belgariad world Hoo (I own books for both those world).

I am just more interested in playing in a historical setting thats all.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
I too am not in favour of a fictional world. Once you start entering a fantasy geography and historiography you let in a chain of events which might get out of control in terms of storylines and player intentions. Of course making any sort of infrastructure/ economic base then becomes more of an artifical process.

Also, how many current players post news and background info on a regular basis now? We know very little about Atlantis, Iberia, Nordmark or the SAE or how they work even now. We accept what is there but we don't understand how it functions, generally much WW history has only been written in the last 5 Sim Years or so. The fictional nations do seem to lack the clarity required in the current game. Any WW2 without a sound player-built history and backstory and future developments planned and communicated just isn't going to make sense and will lead to problems.

Agreed. And, at least judging from my browsing of NationStates and Shipbucket's AU forum, a lot of people create fictional countries that are just patently ridiculous or off-the-wall. Countries the size of the Faroes Islands, population nine gazillion, building nuclear powered aircraft carriers to protect their fishing fleets. Countries with national borders that look like crude/obscene gestures or are named for bodily functions. Stuff like that. Some people know how to create totally fictitious entities that make sense, but we've got players even here who can't be bothered to put in the time to name their warships for their own completely historical countries.

Trying to make everyone do a totally fictitious country would just be asking for trouble.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
I think we should reset to a set historical time on real earth. Maybe 1900 or 1904 so it avoids the Great War and gives a run up to the Dreadnought era (and allows time for aviation tech to start from scratch). Everyone gets whatever was built before that era OTL as a basis. [Kirk has mentioned an 1880 start, personaly I find that too earl but an 1890s start would be interesting too].

Strongly seconded! I for one would love to play a US Navy that, in the early 1900s, continued building the sort of Big Ten "second class battleships" instead of going solely to the all-dreadnought USN of historical.

Uh... dibs on the WW2 United States.

I agree that an earlyer start on real earth is the "best" solution as we have the ability to do some customization of fleets which would be nice.

If we are calling dibs...*looks at Russia*

Timeframe does not really matter to me.

For WW2, I'll probably stick to what I control now.

I think using the same map as before will not be a bad idea.
And I also think that early 1900 will be a good starting point.

I will look forward to what you will build.

I am liking the idea of starting earlier than the preveous sim year of 1921. Problem is if we script pre great war, does it even happen? Perhaps we should have 1880 as a start point and script everything to a point post war and start the true sim play?

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
I am liking the idea of starting earlier than the preveous sim year of 1921. Problem is if we script pre great war, does it even happen? Perhaps we should have 1880 as a start point and script everything to a point post war and start the true sim play?

Far easier to just start earlier and script what happened previously, if that is really required. 1880 would be a good start date - and any major differences between OTL history and WW history would be determined *before* game play starts. And the history would have to be consistent for all nations - not only those being played, but including those not yet in play.

I would prefer to play a Greater Mexico, so would like pre-sim history to date back to 1840 at least. Starting date I would favor 1900 as earlier time period ships are harder to sim, as less information is available for them.

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
I would prefer to play a Greater Mexico...

Looks like you nailed it on the head, Jason!

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
I would prefer to play a Greater Mexico, so would like pre-sim history to date back to 1840 at least. Starting date I would favor 1900 as earlier time period ships are harder to sim, as less information is available for them.

I'd prefer to play the Holy Roman Empire too, but that ain't happening.