WesWorld

Naval construction capacity in the sim in 1942 is still directly linked to the pre-1920 naval programs we used as a basis for set-up. The only way to improve on this has been:

1) Invest existing production in new factories - a process which takes 20 years to pay for itself and which is particularly challenging for smaller and medium powers.

2) Put the case forward for unique upgrades, such as Canada when it became PC, and Germany after the Treaty of Versailles ended.

I'd like to float the idea of tweaking factory counts for countries to account for industrialization of populations - especially large populations - over the past twenty years of sim-time.

I think this would have a couple of beneficial results:

A) Those of us playing smaller and medium countries won't suffer too badly as warship sizes escalate in the post-treaty environment and treaty-era stuff begin to require modernization. We can continue to design and build cruisers and the occasional capital ship.

B) Those of us playing larger powers will continue to have credible rivals in places like South America and Asia - and thus genuine reasons to have these large fleets in the first place.

Thoughts?

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Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
Naval construction capacity in the sim in 1942 is still directly linked to the pre-1920 naval programs we used as a basis for set-up. The only way to improve on this has been:

1) Invest existing production in new factories - a process which takes 20 years to pay for itself and which is particularly challenging for smaller and medium powers.

2) Put the case forward for unique upgrades, such as Canada when it became PC, and Germany after the Treaty of Versailles ended.

I'd like to float the idea of tweaking factory counts for countries to account for industrialization of populations - especially large populations - over the past twenty years of sim-time.

I think this would have a couple of beneficial results:

A) Those of us playing smaller and medium countries won't suffer too badly as warship sizes escalate in the post-treaty environment and treaty-era stuff begin to require modernization. We can continue to design and build cruisers and the occasional capital ship.

B) Those of us playing larger powers will continue to have credible rivals in places like South America and Asia - and thus genuine reasons to have these large fleets in the first place.

Thoughts?

In far too many cases the original construction capacities assigned to many nations was totally ahistorical, IMHO, but this is not the time to adjust it. It is what it is. The rules have a provision for investment in naval production capacity, as limited as that might be - directly linking capacity to population would totally change the dynamic of the game.

Would it be something to correct at reset? Surely. Is it something to fiddle with as we enter the last seven years of the current game timeframe? No.

Personally, I think that would unfairly advantage countries with extremely large populations, such as India and China, within the context of the game. There are a few issues I have with the current system, yes; but I don't really see that it's "broken" enough to merit radical change. Still, the idea might have some merit for whenever we finish up this sim and move on to Wesworld-2.

I agree its not the time to radically alter the SIM.
We've already dicussed altering the refit rules and now this. Really we just need to stick with what we've got.
The current trend seems to be wanting more tonnage and wanting to spend less at the same time. Such a move makes no sense, we'll just end up over-extending what large fleet there are. I remember not too many years ago Alt Naval and Hrolf arguing that fleets were too big and trying to justify some kind of manpower limit and/ or set maintainence payments. Given the see-saw of opinions and agendas its just better to stick with what we have until the end of WW1.

When I write, "tweaking", what exactly do you guys think I mean?

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Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
When I write, "tweaking", what exactly do you guys think I mean?

Perhaps it would make things clearer if you defined what you mean by "tweaking"? To each of us it might be something far different than you intend.

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Originally posted by Brockpaine
Personally, I think that would unfairly advantage countries with extremely large populations, such as India and China, within the context of the game. There are a few issues I have with the current system, yes; but I don't really see that it's "broken" enough to merit radical change. Still, the idea might have some merit for whenever we finish up this sim and move on to Wesworld-2.

Why do you think there is an unfairly advantage ??? You are surely right, if it directly depends on the populations. But we could include a factor that makes it more "harmonized".

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Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
B) Those of us playing larger powers will continue to have credible rivals in places like South America and Asia - and thus genuine reasons to have these large fleets in the first place.

Fully agree.

For example why there is a need for germany to build 4 BB's which are at the same size of the OTL H-Class (Z-Plan) when there is no enemy ? Gemany is surrounded by european friends. And no war is growing on the horizont. (don't take it personally Bruce, it's only a question, i have no problems with the way you play germany - on the contrary i like it !!!!!). With a rule, depending on the population, other countries are stronger and so there is may be a need for huge fleets.

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Why do you think there is an unfairly advantage ??? You are surely right, if it directly depends on the populations. But we could include a factor that makes it more "harmonized".

How do you create a rule to 'harmonize' the differences between a nation with a population of 50 million with one of 400 million. I'd like to see such a concrete proposal.

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For example why there is a need for germany to build 4 BB's which are at the same size of the OTL H-Class (Z-Plan) when there is no enemy ? Gemany is surrounded by european friends. And no war is growing on the horizont. (don't take it personally Bruce, it's only a question, i have no problems with the way you play germany - on the contrary i like it !!!!!). With a rule, depending on the population, other countries are stronger and so there is may be a need for huge fleets.

When the Sachsens were conceived - sometime in 1934, and laid down - the first in 1935 - the European political situation was far different and Germany was controlled by my predecessor. Why he chose to construct them is a mystery to me - they are certainly not what I would have constructed if I had the choice.

To propose to change the rules so that some nations could build larger fleets because other nations already have large fleets is rather specious - as the nations with large fleets will just build them bigger - or if the rule grossly favors one group of nations over another, it becomes special pleading.

The time to consider these issues is when the rules for Wesworld Two are being framed, whenever that might be.

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Originally posted by BruceDuncan
How do you create a rule to 'harmonize' the differences between a nation with a population of 50 million with one of 400 million. I'd like to see such a concrete proposal.

Do we have an overview about the population of each country ? Without having this overview it's hard do make a proposal.

A first, unproven shot could be for every 100 million people a country gets an additional factory.

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Originally posted by parador

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Originally posted by BruceDuncan
How do you create a rule to 'harmonize' the differences between a nation with a population of 50 million with one of 400 million. I'd like to see such a concrete proposal.

Do we have an overview about the population of each country ? Without having this overview it's hard do make a proposal.

A first, unproven shot could be for every 100 million people a country gets an additional factory.

That is the problem; the population of many nations is not documentable; too many nations have presumed that they could deflect the stream of emigrants in the 19th Century to their shores - so much so that Europe might have been emptied as people. And in defining populations, do you only count the population in the homeland - where the industry is - or the colonial empires, where the bulk of the population might lie.

An additional factory per every 100 million population would benefit very few countries.

I do not see any benefit from a rules change at this time.

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Originally posted by BruceDuncan
That is the problem; the population of many nations is not documentable; too many nations have presumed that they could deflect the stream of emigrants in the 19th Century to their shores - so much so that Europe might have been emptied as people. And in defining populations, do you only count the population in the homeland - where the industry is - or the colonial empires, where the bulk of the population might lie.

An additional factory per every 100 million population would benefit very few countries.

I do not see any benefit from a rules change at this time.

With the existing rule also only a few countries have benefited.

Rocky asked about countries with especially large populations. In my eyes at present there are only a few countries which meet this requirements. So also only a few countries will get this benefit. If we want to change the rule so that all or many countries get the benefit, the bonus will grow to another dimension. Then I have to agree with Brock, then it will be unbalanced (huge bonus for countries with huge population). And I do not think it was Rocky's intention, to get a big bonus. I think he just wanted that the present population plays a role and not ships built at the beginning of the century.

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Originally posted by parador

With the existing rule also only a few countries have benefited.

But we all knew those conditions, for better or worse, when we entered the game. We are now talking about a potentially game-unbalancing change.

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Rocky asked about countries with especially large populations. In my eyes at present there are only a few countries which meet this requirements. So also only a few countries will get this benefit. If we want to change the rule so that all or many countries get the benefit, the bonus will grow to another dimension. Then I have to agree with Brock, then it will be unbalanced (huge bonus for countries with huge population). And I do not think it was Rocky's intention, to get a big bonus. I think he just wanted that the present population plays a role and not ships built at the beginning of the century.

Rocky's proposal was so nebulous I am uncertain of his intent - but it would seem to benefit only two countries - India and China. And considering that neither of those nations historically had any sort of significant naval force prior to 1920, I think a reasonable accommodation has been made for them.

We have a mechanism in the rules that allows factories to be built, which many nations have availed themselves of. That some prefer to invest in their fleets and not in their industries is a player choice.

Are the costs to build a factory too high? Perhaps in retrospect they are. Should they be changed now? I would reserve comment until I saw an actual proposal for a rules change. Should they be reconsidered when the rules for Wesworld Two are framed? Most certainly.

I do not see any benefit from a rules change at this time.

By "tweak", I was looking at not more than a 50% increase.

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Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
By "tweak", I was looking at not more than a 50% increase.

To me - "tweak" might be ten percent or less. A change of "not more than 50%" is not a tweak, it is a potentially unbalancing revision.

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Originally posted by BruceDuncan
But we all knew those conditions, for better or worse, when we entered the game. We are now talking about a potentially game-unbalancing change.

Again, NO . We didn't talk about a potentially game-unbalancing change !!! With the proposal (1factory per 100mio), where is there a unbalancing change ?
By the way, if we add (up to 100mio = 1 factory), so every nation gets a bonus.

Is it really unbalancing, if China has 11 or 16 factories or Bharat has 15 instead of 11 ?!?!? I don't think so.

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We have a mechanism in the rules that allows factories to be built, which many nations have availed themselves of. That some prefer to invest in their fleets and not in their industries is a player choice.

For countries with round about 10 factories or less, it makes no sense to invest in factory-infrastructure, because you could only use a few factories for building IPs instead of tonnage. Otherwise you couldn't build any warship or make a refit.

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Are the costs to build a factory too high? Perhaps in retrospect they are. Should they be changed now? I would reserve comment until I saw an actual proposal for a rules change. Should they be reconsidered when the rules for Wesworld Two are framed? Most certainly.

Fully agree. In Wesworld Two this rule has to be proven and may be modified.

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Again, NO . We didn't talk about a potentially game-unbalancing change !!! With the proposal (1factory per 100mio), where is there a unbalancing change ?

Germany does not have a population of 100 million.
Canada does not have a population of 100 million
Japan does not have a population of 100 million

If you discount colonial populations, many nations do not have a population of 100 million.

A rule that impacts only one or two countries is by definition unbalanced.

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By the way, if we add (up to 100mio = 1 factory), so every nation gets a bonus.

If you make a qoute please make it complete

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Originally posted by BruceDuncan
A rule that impacts only one or two countries is by definition unbalanced.

As said, if we add (up to 100mio, the country get 1 factory), so EVERY country gets the bonus, so after your definition it isn't unbalanced. Sure, if only one or two or a few, countries gets the bonus you are absolutely right.

And as mentioned, it's a first shot.

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Originally posted by parador

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By the way, if we add (up to 100mio = 1 factory), so every nation gets a bonus.

If you make a qoute please make it complete

Oh, you mean if we *round* up populations?

Giving everybody more factories does not solve the fundamental problem. It will still give an unbalanced increment to those nations with huge populations to the detriment of those who do not.

For example, the one additional factory that the Philippines might obtain under your proposal in no way balances the four, five or six factories (depending on population estimates) that China might obtain.

The last seven or so years of the game's life is not the time to make these fundamental changes to our rules, particulalrly when their benefit is skewed so much in favor of one or two nations.

Alright. Forget I asked.

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Originally posted by BruceDuncan
The last seven or so years of the game's life is not the time to make these fundamental changes to our rules, particulalrly when their benefit is skewed so much in favor of one or two nations.

Absolutely. Even under the most generous of rounding-up proposals, there's only five nations which could possibly get more than one factory out of it. China, India, the United States, maybe France, and maybe Britain - the latter two only if you count up their colonial empires with their metropolitan regions. Meanwhile, China would get five to six factories and India would get four. They'd be the only people to benefit substantially from this proposal. This when I feel they're already showing high levels of naval construction (ordering ships that are often on technological and quantitative par with period European ships). As I said before, that would unjustly benefit only a few countries. Now, I wouldn't mind seeing the USA's factories raised, as it's probably about a quarter of what it really ought to historically be.

A more reasonable scenario, in my opinion, would be to make a proposal such as the following:

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"Starting in 19__, countries get 0.1 IP per year per hundred million population to invest in a new factory or infrastructure."

However, I would like to add a caveat here. If we want to pursue anything in this nature - tying population sizes into game mechanics, then we need to set, with finality, the populations of all the Wesworld countries before we should discuss this any further. That way we know with absolute certainty which countries have a specific population and how each of them benefits from any given proposal.