WesWorld

I was just fiddling with some oddball battlecruiser designs.

The working theory basically formed around the concept of 8x12" all-forward, in the usual French style, on a ship that could fit into a D3.5 drydock. The high 34 knot speed of the previous French battlecruisers was reduced to match the 32 knot speed of the Liberte class.

This, of course, was rather reminiscent of the historical Dunkerques, so I had to try a slower version with the 340mm gun.

The major issue in these designs is that they don't fit handily in many of the categories - they're too weakly-protected to fight a ship of equivalent armament, they're overkill versus heavy cruisers, etc etc. While they'd presumably look awesome, I'd rather spend the money on something else.

[SIZE=3]Alsace, French Battlecruiser laid down 1943[/SIZE]

Displacement:
27,000 t light; 28,291 t standard; 32,213 t normal; 35,351 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
803.81 ft / 803.81 ft x 90.22 ft x 28.54 ft (normal load)
245.00 m / 245.00 m x 27.50 m x 8.70 m

Armament:
8 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (2x4 guns), 952.40lbs / 432.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
6 - 5.43" / 138 mm guns (3x2 guns), 80.19lbs / 36.37kg shells, 1943 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
24 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (6x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1943 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
6 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1943 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,430 lbs / 3,824 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 135

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 492.13 ft / 150.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 1.18" / 30 mm 262.47 ft / 80.00 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
49.21 ft / 15.00 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.77" / 45 mm 492.13 ft / 150.00 m 29.53 ft / 9.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.7" / 400 mm 7.09" / 180 mm 9.06" / 230 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Armour deck: 4.53" / 115 mm, Conning tower: 15.75" / 400 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 140,218 shp / 104,603 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,059 tons

Complement:
1,201 - 1,562

Cost:
£14.795 million / $59.179 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 962 tons, 3.0 %
Armour: 9,735 tons, 30.2 %
- Belts: 2,530 tons, 7.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 953 tons, 3.0 %
- Armament: 1,518 tons, 4.7 %
- Armour Deck: 4,391 tons, 13.6 %
- Conning Tower: 343 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 3,621 tons, 11.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,306 tons, 38.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,213 tons, 16.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 375 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
52,874 lbs / 23,983 Kg = 61.1 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 8.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.26

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.545
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.91 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32.48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 36.09 ft / 11.00 m
- Forecastle (36 %): 31.17 ft / 9.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Stern: 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
- Average freeboard: 24.25 ft / 7.39 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 165.6 %
Waterplane Area: 52,423 Square feet or 4,870 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 129 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 162 lbs/sq ft or 792 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.25
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[SIZE=3]Lorraine, French Battlecruiser laid down 1943[/SIZE]

Displacement:
27,483 t light; 28,996 t standard; 32,213 t normal; 34,786 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
803.81 ft / 803.81 ft x 90.22 ft x 28.54 ft (normal load)
245.00 m / 245.00 m x 27.50 m x 8.70 m

Armament:
8 - 13.39" / 340 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
6 - 5.43" / 138 mm guns (3x2 guns), 80.19lbs / 36.37kg shells, 1943 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
24 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (6x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1943 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
6 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1943 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11,393 lbs / 5,168 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 135

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 492.13 ft / 150.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 1.18" / 30 mm 262.47 ft / 80.00 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
49.21 ft / 15.00 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.77" / 45 mm 492.13 ft / 150.00 m 29.53 ft / 9.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.7" / 400 mm 7.09" / 180 mm 9.06" / 230 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Armour deck: 4.53" / 115 mm, Conning tower: 15.75" / 400 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 96,993 shp / 72,357 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 9,750nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,790 tons

Complement:
1,201 - 1,562

Cost:
£15.716 million / $62.865 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,296 tons, 4.0 %
Armour: 9,943 tons, 30.9 %
- Belts: 2,530 tons, 7.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 953 tons, 3.0 %
- Armament: 1,726 tons, 5.4 %
- Armour Deck: 4,391 tons, 13.6 %
- Conning Tower: 343 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 2,505 tons, 7.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,364 tons, 41.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,730 tons, 14.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 375 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
56,279 lbs / 25,528 Kg = 46.9 x 13.4 " / 340 mm shells or 9.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.52

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.545
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.91 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32.48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 36.09 ft / 11.00 m
- Forecastle (36 %): 31.17 ft / 9.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Stern: 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
- Average freeboard: 24.25 ft / 7.39 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 165.6 %
Waterplane Area: 52,423 Square feet or 4,870 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 125 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 176 lbs/sq ft or 860 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.34
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

An interesting take on the Iron Triangle.

They seem somewhat slow compared to the battlecruisers of some other nations, though better protected for their tonnage, and their armament is excellent for the cost.

And for the sake of snorts and snickers - the above designs somehow emerged as I was trying to design an 8x8" CA (in 4x2 layout, a la OTL Algerie). Once I got back to the original idea, I still had quad turrets on the brain, and so this odd design emerged:

Quoted

[SIZE=3]Pyrénées, French Heavy Cruiser laid down 1943[/SIZE]

Displacement:
14,000 t light; 14,562 t standard; 17,236 t normal; 19,375 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
702.10 ft / 702.10 ft x 75.46 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
214.00 m / 214.00 m x 23.00 m x 7.00 m

Armament:
8 - 7.87" / 200 mm guns (2x4 guns), 286.60lbs / 130.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (2x2 guns), 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
24 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (6x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1943 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
6 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1943 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2,763 lbs / 1,253 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 135
12 - 21.7" / 550 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.12" / 130 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 0.98" / 25 mm 262.47 ft / 80.00 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
45.93 ft / 14.00 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 86 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 3.54" / 90 mm 5.12" / 130 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Armour deck: 2.76" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 122,908 shp / 91,690 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,813 tons

Complement:
751 - 977

Cost:
£7.742 million / $30.969 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 296 tons, 1.7 %
Armour: 3,343 tons, 19.4 %
- Belts: 914 tons, 5.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 479 tons, 2.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,864 tons, 10.8 %
- Conning Tower: 85 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 3,174 tons, 18.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,812 tons, 39.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,236 tons, 18.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 375 tons, 2.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27,042 lbs / 12,266 Kg = 110.8 x 7.9 " / 200 mm shells or 2.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 15.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.14

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.496
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.30 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 36.09 ft / 11.00 m
- Forecastle (26 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Stern: 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
- Average freeboard: 22.45 ft / 6.84 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.9 %
Waterplane Area: 36,565 Square feet or 3,397 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 139 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 125 lbs/sq ft or 612 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.31
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
An interesting take on the Iron Triangle.

They seem somewhat slow compared to the battlecruisers of some other nations, though better protected for their tonnage, and their armament is excellent for the cost.

Particularly on the 8x320mm version, I think.

Not sure which of them I'd choose if I had to pick between the two of them. On the one hand, I do love fast ships, and that comments Alsace to me. But on the other hand, I have a practical voice that reminds me that speed isn't everything, and the Lorraine seems to be the more balanced design.

Same 8x8" with the more usual 4x2 layout.

Quoted

[SIZE=3]Alpes, French Heavy Cruiser laid down 1943[/SIZE]

Displacement:
14,000 t light; 14,562 t standard; 17,236 t normal; 19,375 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
702.10 ft / 702.10 ft x 75.46 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
214.00 m / 214.00 m x 23.00 m x 7.00 m

Armament:
8 - 7.87" / 200 mm guns (4x2 guns), 286.60lbs / 130.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (2x2 guns), 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
24 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (6x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1943 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
6 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1943 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2,763 lbs / 1,253 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 135
12 - 21.7" / 550 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.12" / 130 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 0.98" / 25 mm 262.47 ft / 80.00 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
45.93 ft / 14.00 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 86 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 3.54" / 90 mm 5.12" / 130 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Armour deck: 2.76" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 122,908 shp / 91,690 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,813 tons

Complement:
751 - 977

Cost:
£7.742 million / $30.969 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 296 tons, 1.7 %
Armour: 3,487 tons, 20.2 %
- Belts: 914 tons, 5.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 623 tons, 3.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,864 tons, 10.8 %
- Conning Tower: 85 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 3,174 tons, 18.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,668 tons, 38.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,236 tons, 18.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 375 tons, 2.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,623 lbs / 12,076 Kg = 109.1 x 7.9 " / 200 mm shells or 2.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.496
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.30 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 36.09 ft / 11.00 m
- Forecastle (26 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Stern: 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
- Average freeboard: 22.45 ft / 6.84 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.9 %
Waterplane Area: 36,565 Square feet or 3,397 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 137 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 123 lbs/sq ft or 599 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.23
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Once, many moons ago, I played with a French-style 4x4 203mm cruiser!

Lorraine perhaps is the best of the two. The speed possibly isn't that bad but its still low for a battlecruiser.
The two qaud 203mm cruiser is a very interesting idea, leaves the rear free for aircraft or more AA & DP armament. The 4x2 version though has excellent armour, certainly its one of the better CAs I've seen offering a good all-round performance without too much cost.

I like the idea of a quad 203 in theory, but reckon the beam would need to be wider.

The 305mm ships is reasonably balanced, but if you haven't got a job for her...

For a cruiser I much prefer the layout of Alpes as opposed to Pyrénées. A cruiser is far less likely to be able to choose its engagement scenario, and with all the main armament concentrated forward Pyrénées would be at a disadvantage - albeit short term perhaps - compared with a conventional layout.

I also tend to agree that a quadruple turret on a cruiser-sized beam may be asking too much, though the case can be made for it. Then again, I am not a fan of quadruple turrets in any case.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
The two qaud 203mm cruiser is a very interesting idea, leaves the rear free for aircraft or more AA & DP armament. The 4x2 version though has excellent armour, certainly its one of the better CAs I've seen offering a good all-round performance without too much cost.

I based them both off Wesworld France's current 8x8" CA, the Indochinie, though I reworked the hull dimensions. The 4x2 layout version is, needless to say, much closer to the original Indochinie, but I've really taken a shine to the 2x4 version.

While France has started up on two 9x240mm gunned croiseurs lourds, I've still got 8" guns on my mind. Many of France's heavy cruisers are aging, and while I've refitted the Duquesne class, I ended up scrapping the older Suffrens. So I think it'd be valuable to put together a tough but relatively inexpensive heavy cruiser.

My current strategy is to put together pairs of 8" gunned heavy cruisers as the centerpieces of a naval task force. One group in Brest, one group in in Dakar or Casablanca, one group in Suva or Papeete, and one group as a spare (or perhaps in Djibouti). For that plan to work, I need eight CAs - and I have three (plus one refitting and two more building). So I'd like to put together at least two more 8" gunned CAs within the next few years. What with my other projects, money's a bit tight, and I don't want to spend 17-18,000 tons on another copy of Temeraire or the Jean Barts.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
Once, many moons ago, I played with a French-style 4x4 203mm cruiser!

IIRC, Perdy did something similar in Wesworld as a Perdyploy for his 8x11" Indian battlecruisers.

Quoted

Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
I like the idea of a quad 203 in theory, but reckon the beam would need to be wider.

That was my concern with that design, yes. I don't have any rules-of-thumb to compare turret size versus beam, so I just took a guess as to what looked right.

Fiddled a bit more with Alpes to get the freeboard as I wanted it. Ended up raising the cost a bit, but I managed to get a bit more miscellaneous weight aboard.

Quoted

[SIZE=3]Alpes, French Heavy Cruiser laid down 1943[/SIZE]

Displacement:
14,185 t light; 14,776 t standard; 17,474 t normal; 19,632 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
698.82 ft / 698.82 ft x 75.46 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
213.00 m / 213.00 m x 23.00 m x 7.00 m

Armament:
8 - 7.87" / 200 mm guns (4x2 guns), 286.60lbs / 130.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (2x2 guns), 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
24 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (6x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1943 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
6 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1943 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2,763 lbs / 1,253 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
12 - 21.7" / 550 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.12" / 130 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 0.98" / 25 mm 262.47 ft / 80.00 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
42.65 ft / 13.00 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 3.54" / 90 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Armour deck: 2.76" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 124,767 shp / 93,076 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,855 tons

Complement:
759 - 987

Cost:
£7.829 million / $31.315 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 296 tons, 1.7 %
Armour: 3,479 tons, 19.9 %
- Belts: 914 tons, 5.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 608 tons, 3.5 %
- Armour Deck: 1,872 tons, 10.7 %
- Conning Tower: 86 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 3,222 tons, 18.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,763 tons, 38.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,289 tons, 18.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 425 tons, 2.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
27,276 lbs / 12,372 Kg = 111.7 x 7.9 " / 200 mm shells or 2.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.11

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.505
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.26 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.33 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
- Average freeboard: 22.86 ft / 6.97 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161.6 %
Waterplane Area: 36,708 Square feet or 3,410 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 137 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 124 lbs/sq ft or 603 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Interesting battlecruiser designs, the Americans find it interesting they aren't they only ones thinking small for post-post-Cleito ships (I do have a nice design for a Super-Alaska, with 12x12 seeing as someone went and built an Alaska clone).

One thing I find interesting is that the French are using a mixed propulsion system of oil fired boilers with diesel motors.

France obviously have an eye to oceanic operations with diesels and steam.

The 4x4 6in Belfast design came out at 620ft (wl), 62.8ft beam and 17ft draught. Beam was 1ft greater than the triple turret design on a Southampton hull form but 63.8ft could be arranged for extra stability with a fuller bilge. It was the increase space (aded length) required for the bigger magazines that finally killed the qaud turret. So perhaps with rule of thumb, given the bigger 203mm gun, 3ft extra might be enough.

Concentration of forward armament might be a drawback, but even a 3x3 has more firepower forward than aft. A 4x2 is nicely balanced, and of course with an all-forward armament it takes less chance to get both knocked out, or even if one is knocked out half of the firepower is removed at a stroke. Lose one twin and only a qaurter is lost.

I do like the Alpes though, it looks better and that 185 tons is well spent.

Quoted

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian
One thing I find interesting is that the French are using a mixed propulsion system of oil fired boilers with diesel motors.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
France obviously have an eye to oceanic operations with diesels and steam.

The French have noticed the German success with mixed propulsion warships. The MN doesn't have any in service just yet, but the Jean Barts, the Cimeterres, the Barfleurs, and the Le Breton all got CODAS plants. The decision dates back a bit, though - the MN's been putting diesel fuel into their wartime stockpiles for years, and they've started building it up rather significantly since 1938ish. Part of that switch is due to the French merchant marine's large-scale shift to diesel, so production and stockpiling of diesel fuel has increased quite a lot.

Fiddled with it a bit more, thinning out the beam just a bit and giving it a few more various tweaks. I lost a few points of stability, but saved a not-insignificant amount on light displacement.

I'm liking how this is panning out.

Quoted

[SIZE=3]La Fayette class, French Heavy Cruiser laid down 1943[/SIZE]

Displacement:
13,710 t light; 14,341 t standard; 16,996 t normal; 19,120 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
698.82 ft / 698.82 ft x 70.87 ft x 23.79 ft (normal load)
213.00 m / 213.00 m x 21.60 m x 7.25 m

Armament:
8 - 7.87" / 200 mm guns (4x2 guns), 286.60lbs / 130.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread
24 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (6x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1943 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
24 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1943 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,769 lbs / 1,256 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 180
12 - 21.7" / 550 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.12" / 130 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 0.98" / 25 mm 262.47 ft / 80.00 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
42.65 ft / 13.00 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.27" / 210 mm 3.54" / 90 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Armour deck: 2.76" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 122,219 shp / 91,175 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,779 tons

Complement:
743 - 967

Cost:
£7.714 million / $30.854 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 306 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 3,367 tons, 19.8 %
- Belts: 908 tons, 5.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 617 tons, 3.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,758 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 84 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 3,156 tons, 18.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,431 tons, 37.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,286 tons, 19.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 2.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,409 lbs / 11,525 Kg = 104.1 x 7.9 " / 200 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 64 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.505
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.86 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.18 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
- Average freeboard: 22.86 ft / 6.97 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153.0 %
Waterplane Area: 34,474 Square feet or 3,203 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 135 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 120 lbs/sq ft or 588 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

I think I like La Fayette as well - particularly for the cost savings. I don't think that the slight loss of steadiness is too much to sacrifice for that.

She is fast, long-legged and reasonably well armed. Myself, I would not ship a 20mm battery at this point in time, but France's needs are different than Germany's.