WesWorld

This is something of a theoretical design study I did for future French aircraft carriers. It runs the gamut from the small to the hyper-large. In brief:

- Scipion: very small fleet carrier (or very large light carrier) intended to operate 56 aircraft.
- Armide: midsized fleet carrier intended to operate 75 aircraft. Envisioned as a modified version of the existing St. Cyr class.
- Tonnant: fleet carrier intended to operate 84 aircraft. Essentially an updated follow-on to the Vengeur-class currently under construction.
- Foudroyant: a late 1940s super-heavy fleet carrier intended to operate 104 aircraft, including jets.

The next hypothetical pair of French carriers will possibly be selected from this list, though dates and precise specifications may change.

[SIZE=3]Scipion, French light carrier laid down 1941[/SIZE]

Displacement:
15,700 t light; 16,388 t standard; 19,491 t normal; 21,974 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
770.38 ft / 744.75 ft x 72.18 ft (Bulges 75.46 ft) x 24.28 ft (normal load)
234.81 m / 227.00 m x 22.00 m (Bulges 23.00 m) x 7.40 m

Armament:
12 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1941 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
40 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (10x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1941 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
24 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1941 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 507 lbs / 230 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 950

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.57" / 40 mm 468.01 ft / 142.65 m 10.17 ft / 3.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Armour deck: 1.77" / 45 mm, Conning tower: 1.77" / 45 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 148,668 shp / 110,906 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,586 tons

Complement:
824 - 1,072

Cost:
£7.089 million / $28.358 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 56 tons, 0.3 %
Armour: 1,550 tons, 8.0 %
- Belts: 313 tons, 1.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 36 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,174 tons, 6.0 %
- Conning Tower: 28 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 3,929 tons, 20.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,265 tons, 32.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,791 tons, 19.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 3,900 tons, 20.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,599 lbs / 10,704 Kg = 773.4 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 16.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.08
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.26

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.87 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.29 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.18 ft / 9.20 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 28.22 ft / 8.60 m (21.00 ft / 6.40 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 173.8 %
Waterplane Area: 35,816 Square feet or 3,327 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 142 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 109 lbs/sq ft or 532 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.09
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 3136 tons for 56 aircraft
- 200t Air Control Operations
- 50t air search and fire control radar
- 20t surface search radar
- 50t radar-integrated fire control
- 400t crated planes (8 @ 25 tons each) and spare parts
- 44 tons for crew comforts

[SIZE=3]Armide, French Aircraft Carrier laid down 1942[/SIZE]

Displacement:
26,442 t light; 27,335 t standard; 31,453 t normal; 34,748 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
858.08 ft / 820.21 ft x 82.02 ft (Bulges 88.58 ft) x 28.22 ft (normal load)
261.54 m / 250.00 m x 25.00 m (Bulges 27.00 m) x 8.60 m

Armament:
16 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1942 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
48 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (12x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1942 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
24 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1942 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 664 lbs / 301 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 650

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.57" / 40 mm 577.43 ft / 176.00 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2.17" / 55 mm 577.43 ft / 176.00 m 29.53 ft / 9.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Armour deck: 3.54" / 90 mm, Conning tower: 3.54" / 90 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 197,249 shp / 147,148 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,413 tons

Complement:
1,180 - 1,535

Cost:
£10.938 million / $43.752 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 86 tons, 0.3 %
Armour: 4,821 tons, 15.3 %
- Belts: 307 tons, 1.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,366 tons, 4.3 %
- Armament: 32 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 3,040 tons, 9.7 %
- Conning Tower: 76 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 5,153 tons, 16.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,182 tons, 29.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,011 tons, 15.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 7,200 tons, 22.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
40,072 lbs / 18,176 Kg = 1,313.3 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 5.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.05
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.537
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.26 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.64 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.50 ft / 9.60 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 27.07 ft / 8.25 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Stern: 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Average freeboard: 23.69 ft / 7.22 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 169.6 %
Waterplane Area: 46,382 Square feet or 4,309 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 137 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 126 lbs/sq ft or 614 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.03
- Longitudinal: 0.99
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 5625 for 75 aircraft
- 200t Air Control Operations
- 50t air search and fire control radar
- 20t surface search radar
- 50t radar-integrated fire control
- 400t crated planes (8 @ 25 tons each) and spare parts
- 250t for flagship facilities
- 450t damage control and fire suppression systems
- 100t growth room
- 55 tons for crew comforts

[SIZE=3]Tonnant, French Aircraft Carrier laid down 1944[/SIZE]

Displacement:
34,000 t light; 35,165 t standard; 40,780 t normal; 45,272 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
996.16 ft / 885.83 ft x 91.86 ft (Bulges 98.43 ft) x 29.53 ft (normal load)
303.63 m / 270.00 m x 28.00 m (Bulges 30.00 m) x 9.00 m

Armament:
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
48 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (12x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 799 lbs / 363 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 650

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.36" / 60 mm 590.55 ft / 180.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2.36" / 60 mm 590.55 ft / 180.00 m 29.53 ft / 9.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.59" / 15 mm 0.59" / 15 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.59" / 15 mm 0.59" / 15 mm

- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 199,776 shp / 149,033 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 10,108 tons

Complement:
1,434 - 1,865

Cost:
£13.394 million / $53.575 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 103 tons, 0.3 %
Armour: 6,751 tons, 16.6 %
- Belts: 763 tons, 1.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,524 tons, 3.7 %
- Armament: 39 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 4,325 tons, 10.6 %
- Conning Tower: 100 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 5,102 tons, 12.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,044 tons, 32.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,780 tons, 16.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 9,000 tons, 22.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
60,912 lbs / 27,629 Kg = 1,996.3 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 9.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 17.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 65 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.04
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.17

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.554
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 34.04 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 98.43 ft / 30.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.71 ft / 9.97 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 23.02 ft / 7.02 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172.9 %
Waterplane Area: 59,375 Square feet or 5,516 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 152 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 151 lbs/sq ft or 739 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.18
- Longitudinal: 0.95
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 7056t for 84 aircraft
- 200t Air Control Operations
- 50t air search and fire control radar
- 20t surface search radar
- 50t radar-integrated fire control
- 400t crated planes (8 @ 25 tons each) and spare parts
- 250t for flagship facilities
- 450t damage control and fire suppression systems
- 100t growth room
- 424t for crew comforts

[SIZE=3]Foudroyant, French Carrier laid down 1944[/SIZE]

Displacement:
48,000 t light; 49,406 t standard; 54,865 t normal; 59,232 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
1,019.60 ft / 967.85 ft x 111.55 ft x 32.15 ft (normal load)
310.77 m / 295.00 m x 34.00 m x 9.80 m

Armament:
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (6x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
48 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (12x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 704 lbs / 319 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 650

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.36" / 60 mm 629.10 ft / 191.75 m 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.36" / 60 mm 629.10 ft / 191.75 m 34.45 ft / 10.50 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.59" / 15 mm 0.59" / 15 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.59" / 15 mm 0.59" / 15 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm 0.20" / 5 mm

- Armour deck: 5.12" / 130 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 234,025 shp / 174,582 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 9,825 tons

Complement:
1,792 - 2,330

Cost:
£17.514 million / $70.055 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 103 tons, 0.2 %
Armour: 10,813 tons, 19.7 %
- Belts: 1,237 tons, 2.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,894 tons, 3.5 %
- Armament: 48 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 7,450 tons, 13.6 %
- Conning Tower: 184 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 5,976 tons, 10.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 17,107 tons, 31.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,865 tons, 12.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 14,000 tons, 25.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
91,498 lbs / 41,503 Kg = 2,998.8 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 14.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 7.3 ft / 2.2 m
Roll period: 17.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.37

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.553
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.68 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 35.69 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 32.81 ft / 10.00 m (26.25 ft / 8.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Stern: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Average freeboard: 27.56 ft / 8.40 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 219.5 %
Waterplane Area: 78,683 Square feet or 7,310 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 146 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 157 lbs/sq ft or 765 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.09
- Longitudinal: 1.00
- Overall: 1.03
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 10816t for 104 aircraft (96 fixed wing aircraft + 8 helicopters)
- 200t Air Control Operations
- 50t air search and fire control radar
- 20t surface search radar
- 50t radar-integrated fire control
- 800t crated planes (8 @ 25 tons each) and spare parts
- 250t for flagship facilities
- 450t damage control and fire suppression systems
- 1364t growth room

Foudroyant is a bit of a monster in the same vein as the USS United States. I suppose it's fine if you're operating large bombers like the A3D, but it's got to be overkill for most things. Carriers in the 30-40,000t range can operate up to F-4 size aircraft without too many problems.

I think that overall there's got to be a think about what the aircraft carriers are meant to do and what aircraft they're likely to be carrying. The recent growth in carrier size seems to be a bit of "me too" rather than anything particularly driving the size increase. An Essex sized carrier is pretty useful now, and is sufficiently large to be upgraded later to operate larger aircraft.

To call a 27000ts carrier a "mid-sized fleet carrier" is a bit off to me....

How many planes are organized in a squadron on French carriers? 75 a/c seems a bit odd.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
Foudroyant is a bit of a monster in the same vein as the USS United States. I suppose it's fine if you're operating large bombers like the A3D, but it's got to be overkill for most things. Carriers in the 30-40,000t range can operate up to F-4 size aircraft without too many problems.

I think that overall there's got to be a think about what the aircraft carriers are meant to do and what aircraft they're likely to be carrying. The recent growth in carrier size seems to be a bit of "me too" rather than anything particularly driving the size increase. An Essex sized carrier is pretty useful now, and is sufficiently large to be upgraded later to operate larger aircraft.

Yes, the Foudroyant is indeed a monster. I designed her in a sort of delayed response to the even larger Japanese Hiyo class that was laid down in 1940 (speaking of, they need to be redesigned in SS2 as SS3's still verboten...). Funny thing is, the Foudroyant is actually the only ship in this study which I actually had on the books (for 1944 construction). When I lost my spreadsheets this summer it never got put back on, and I've been reconsidering the design in general.

Each of the ships posted has a certain aspect which appeals to me on some form or another, and they've been floating around my theoretical design files at various different times. My ideal is to field at least seventy aircraft from a fleet carrier, and at least forty from a light carrier. From that aspect, Scipion has a bit of difficulty fitting in, while Armide's probably the Goldilocks ship for my present state of mind. On the other hand, a repeat of the existing Vengeur-class, with a modest update, would be more expensive in sim-game resources, but in terms of R&D, drafting, etc, would represent a well-known quantity.

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
To call a 27000ts carrier a "mid-sized fleet carrier" is a bit off to me....

On its own, I agree - but in comparison to the other ships in the design study, it's very much a mid-sized fleet carrier.

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
How many planes are organized in a squadron on French carriers? 75 a/c seems a bit odd.

The current St. Cyr-class fields 75 aircraft divided along the following lines: 32 fighters (two squadrons of sixteen planes), 16 torpedo bombers (1 squadron), 16 dive bombers (1 squadron), 8 scouts (2 escadrilles), and 3 helicopters (1 escadrille). The smaller French CVs have different sized airgroups, while the airgroups of the Bucentaures and Vengeurs haven't been officially formed.

with Foudroyant, she'll spend 57 months in construction,
so laying her down late,
she'll still be under construction at the end of the world!

Intriguingly, considering which nation I am running I happen to have an irrational dislike and even hatred of the Essex Class carriers. To me, their reputation is much overhyped, especially their reputation as being "tough". Quite frankly, I think that has more to do with the later American excellence in damage-control, experience I note learned at some cost in the begiining of the Pacific War, than any perceived superiority in their design compared to other designs of the period. The likelihood of me laying down a copy of the OTL Essex design is similar to the liklihood of me buying or building a 9 15in battleship. 0%. I will build an OTL Ranger or Wasp before I build an Essex.

(rant over)

CG it depends when Foudroyant is laid down, if she is laid down in Q1/44 then it should complete before 1950, Besides, if I know Brock he likely has plans up to the 1970's at least .

I like the Yorktowns, mid sized, very useful, and took a fair pounding. Though my carriers tend to mix RN and USN styles.

The Dutch primarily see carriers still as fleet air defense, scouting, and 'harrying' the opposition- or killing the weak.

Presuming rolling take offs, the # of fighters a big carrier launches isn't going to be massively greater than the # a mid sized/small can, as the beam difference isn't that great.

So oddly they'd probably see the 1x 48,000 as less useful than say 2x 26,000, as well as having less operational flexibility, and 'putting more eggs in 1 basket'.

Just different operational concepts.

I've always veiwed the Essex class as scaled up Yorktowns. IMO a 27,000 ton CV is a fairly reasonable design for a WW2 era ship and anything larger is really just either one upmans ship, prophetic or the sheer folly of all your eggs (aircraft) in one basket.

Post war when Jets become the norm, carriers need to be much larger to accomidate the larger, faster aircraft and as of yet we are not really in a possition where jets are even in production or even being tested on carriers.

Of the several designs presented, I like that of the Scipion as one that can complement an existing carrier force and can pass into service in thirty months or so. I am not a fan of excessive size vessels due to their long (very long) building times.

Having disposed of Foudroyant in this manner, I'm torn between the Armide and Tonnant designs. The Armide is near my personal upper tonnage limit - 27KT, or a ship that can be built in 36 months. Given her protection scheme, her air group is smaller than I would like - I'd prefer 84 aircraft to 75 - but that is only a minor issue. For the extra nine aircraft, the Tonnant costs far more and takes far longer to build.

But it certainly proves that French designers can take innovative approaches to the same basic requirement and come up with so many options.

Thanks for the comments, all.

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian
Intriguingly, considering which nation I am running I happen to have an irrational dislike and even hatred of the Essex Class carriers. To me, their reputation is much overhyped, especially their reputation as being "tough". Quite frankly, I think that has more to do with the later American excellence in damage-control, experience I note learned at some cost in the begiining of the Pacific War, than any perceived superiority in their design compared to other designs of the period.

Mm, yes and no. While the USN did get quite a good lesson in damage control in 1942, the ships themselves did have some outstanding qualities which affected that - or perhaps more correctly, they lacked the flaws that the other period aircraft carriers had.

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian
Besides, if I know Brock he likely has plans up to the 1970's at least .

Oh, at least.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
Of the several designs presented, I like that of the Scipion as one that can complement an existing carrier force and can pass into service in thirty months or so.

I do like the Scipion as well. It's actually a modification of a CV Springsharp I put together back in 1937 when I was looking at aircraft carriers for Chile - the ship requirement that eventually became the CNS Libertad. In the end, I decided on the current plan, but stored the design for later. The ship doesn't have as many aircraft as I'd like, but that's not a deal-killer.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
Having disposed of Foudroyant in this manner, I'm torn between the Armide and Tonnant designs. The Armide is near my personal upper tonnage limit - 27KT, or a ship that can be built in 36 months. Given her protection scheme, her air group is smaller than I would like - I'd prefer 84 aircraft to 75 - but that is only a minor issue. For the extra nine aircraft, the Tonnant costs far more and takes far longer to build.

Armide amuses me because she's a near-clone of my existing Libertad, tailored for French design preferences; and I drew some further design elements from the French St. Cyr class CVs. I like the St. Cyr class overall, but I feel they're physically constricted in terms of overall dimensions - their short (217m) length in comparison to their overall displacement. I also am not fully sold on the wide bulges. It's not that I feel the ships are bad, per se - I just have very definite ideas about my design elements. The Armide design is basically me taking a stab at a repeat St. Cyr according to my design preferences.

Since Bruce commented about the extreme cost of the Tonnant compared to the Armide, I had a stab at a crossbreed of the two, seeing how small I could make the ship while maintaining the overall design principles and miscellaneous weight.

Quoted

[SIZE=3]Orient, French Fleet Carrier laid down 1942[/SIZE]

Displacement:
30,000 t light; 30,972 t standard; 35,404 t normal; 38,950 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
902.43 ft / 869.42 ft x 85.30 ft (Bulges 88.58 ft) x 29.36 ft (normal load)
275.06 m / 265.00 m x 26.00 m (Bulges 27.00 m) x 8.95 m

Armament:
16 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1942 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
48 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (12x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1942 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
24 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1942 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 664 lbs / 301 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 650

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Ends: Unarmoured

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2.17" / 55 mm 554.46 ft / 169.00 m 28.22 ft / 8.60 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Armour deck: 3.54" / 90 mm, Conning tower: 3.54" / 90 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 206,924 shp / 154,365 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,978 tons

Complement:
1,289 - 1,677

Cost:
£11.956 million / $47.822 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 86 tons, 0.2 %
Armour: 4,754 tons, 13.4 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,253 tons, 3.5 %
- Armament: 32 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 3,386 tons, 9.6 %
- Conning Tower: 82 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 5,406 tons, 15.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,755 tons, 30.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,404 tons, 15.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 9,000 tons, 25.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
44,986 lbs / 20,405 Kg = 1,474.4 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 6.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.05
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.25

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.548
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.81 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 34.45 ft / 10.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 27.89 ft / 8.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Stern: 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Average freeboard: 24.15 ft / 7.36 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 174.3 %
Waterplane Area: 51,658 Square feet or 4,799 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 140 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 134 lbs/sq ft or 656 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.09
- Longitudinal: 0.97
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 7056t for 84 aircraft
- 200t Air Control Operations
- 50t air search and fire control radar
- 20t surface search radar
- 50t radar-integrated fire control
- 400t crated planes (8 @ 25 tons each) and spare parts
- 250t for flagship facilities
- 450t damage control and fire suppression systems
- 100t growth room
- 424t for crew comforts

Orient is an interesting compromise, and probably represents a good upper limit for size of a 1940s era aircraft carrier.

She would cost 3,000 tons or so more to build than an Armide, but less than Tonnant, and would carry the Tonnant's intended air group. But she would take an additional three months to build.

Whether the additional aircraft in the air group are worth the cost in time or tonnage is a carefully balanced question. All things being equal, if I were making the decision, I'd go for the smaller design, but then France has more existing flight decks than Germany does, and could more easily allow the extended construction time.

Decisions, decisions...

Well, the Scipion design actually has some utility for me, mostly because I'd like to replace the Clemenceau and Gambetta fairly soon. And with six fleet CVs in service or under construction, the French don't have an urgent need for more large CVs.

No Belt Armour, Brock?

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Yes, the Foudroyant is indeed a monster. I designed her in a sort of delayed response to the even larger Japanese Hiyo class that was laid down in 1940 (speaking of, they need to be redesigned in SS2 as SS3's still verboten...).

This is sort of the point I raised earlier; why build such large aircraft carriers? Building them simply because others are doesn't make the most sense to me. Italy is building two (fairly) large carriers, but that's for specific reasons - namely to carry larger aircraft.

Which larger aircraft Gavin?