WesWorld

This meant as a serious discussion thread so try to avoid Manga images and quotes.

Do you think that a Nation should be able to operate any equipment it can lay its hands on? Or should we have an Gentlemens agreement on tech levels? Please note that this about operating and maintaining equipment not designing or producing.

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad
This meant as a serious discussion thread so try to avoid Manga images and quotes.

Do you think that a Nation should be able to operate any equipment it can lay its hands on? Or should we have an Gentlemens agreement on tech levels? Please note that this about operating and maintaining equipment not designing or producing.

Sure.. you can OPERATE anything you can get your hands on.
Question is, how long can you MAINTAIN it?

Anyone can capture equipment.
A jungle tribesman can capture an M-16 from it's owner. He might figure out that if he pulls the trigger it makes a noise and whatever you point it at has a hole in it. He might link the info together to decide he could punch holes in a person...

but what happens when the ammo runs out?

That's all i got to say about that.

I'm sure that picked elite forces of most countries could operate/maintain bleeding edge technology. Mass use of armor and aircraft require literate, technically capable enlisted men to operate and maintain them. This means that these capabilities must be common in the population

If these skills are not common in your population and you want to be able to operate a significant air force or armored force, introduce literacy and mass technical education and wait 10-12 years.

That's what the French are doing in WesWorld Indochina, starting with training teachers, then moving on to improving primary and secondary education.

I think that tech levels have always been tied to what happened in OTL. I'm not making any tech out of sorts with what traditionally appeared in our timeline, I'm just making changes for my forces in what was purchased or built new, extrapolating on what might have happened according to present politics.

Same here. Romania just purchased a bunch of tanks so Im good in armoured forces for a while, though I might look into purchasing more trucks. IAR is a bit ahead of where it was in OTL, though with monoplane fighters coming a bit earlier that's understandable.

Poland is still wedded to their cavalry tradition as they were in OTL, though that took quite a beating during the recent Lithuanian crisis. Poland is by no means going to totally get rid of their cavalry, understanding that in Eastern Europe cavalry does still have some part to play. Im planning on still fielding cavalry forces post-1945. However, expect to see the motorization of the cavalry brigades continue, and in 1945 im planning on having only 2 "pure" cavalry brigades left. PZL, is a bit ahead of where they were historically, though the lack of a monoplane fighter is going to be a serious problem until the PZL P.50 fighter comes into production this summer.

Just to make it clear it is about operating and maintaining equipment NOT Production and design

As long as you are in friendly terms with the original builder of the equipment, it shouldn't be a problem. You can always hire advisors to help you out. Our just look at Iran today, still flying the maintanace intensive F-14 Tomcats, 30 years after they where built without US assistance!

All in my opinion of course,

There are a couple different factors.
Historical basis
'storyline'
'reasonableness'

The Iran & F-14 example is a good example. Iran can maintain and field a small number of F-14 fighters. Originally, this likely took a disproportionate resource toll since they did not have the native infrastructure.
Could, just after the revolution, they have fielded 1,000 Tomcats if they had them&doubt it. But 30..sure.

The historic underpinnings of the nation set a baseline. Counties like France, US, Britain, Germany, etc. which were at the forefront stay at the top, but we've had the bottom end move 'up' it seems. We have mythical nations, and many nations which are greatly advanced over historical - up to 20 years in some cases, more in others. Brazil industrialized 20 years early, India echoed Japan's course but with German aid, Atlantis exists with a robust economy, and the Netherlands for some reason seems more industrialized than Belgium (it was that way when I got it).

Now, with the Dutch, 'storyline' gives a good basis for enhanced wealth and militarism, but 'reasonableness' still has limit my forces- and I likely push that. My 'Dutch' population is only so big, so I won't field 70 domestic divisions- I don't even field the 22 Belgium managed.

The Dutch tend to be well equipped rather than manpower-rich. In order to rationalize the personnel requirements for my Army/Navy/Air Force it's obvious the Dutch recruit from the Kongo and DEI.

The Netherlands only has ~12m (8 historically), the Kongo 15m, and DEI 67m, which considerably expands the potential for recruits. As a result I've mentioned officer-rank individuals with non-Dutch names, more so in the Kongo's case, though some of the new Royal Governors in DEI have Malay Achipelego names.

OTL the Dutch military was starved for funds, but still Dutch submarines and fire control were advanced, they had radar guided searchlights in 1937 and more advanced centremetric radar than the British in 1940, with Phillips they have a source of world-class electronics- and who's magnetron supposedly sparked German interest, and EF50 valve was an important of WWII British Radar sets. With Fokker they have a revitalized world leader in aircraft. My predecessor specified Gunnery was a strongpoint, which works with the OTL fire control.

I don't have a heavy bomber fleet (yet) due to cost and inadequate high altitude bombsights- plus I can buy fighters cheaper for less staffing requirement. Engines are historically license built versions- only recently have some engine factories opened on Dutch soil.

Mostly horse drawn transport, just starting to motorize, no half-tracks yet, limited SP guns. My tanks were foreign bought or cost-share until the latest.

Artillery is from a variety of sources, as are AA guns. Small arms are generally foreign bought. For the rifle competition, we are evaluating what is already available, not hiring FN to finish the FN-49 early, at worst the Dutch may ask for changes.

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
...not hiring FN to finish the FN-49 early...

Oh no!

Germany is using it's historical strengths, but making some different choices based on a different position and leanings in the government. Since Germany is not rearming at as rapid a rate as OTL, and seemingly has a somewhat better industrial base (some factories were not carried off by the Belgians and French to pay off reparations payments missed, thanks to loans from India), there are funds available for projects that were not historically funded until later (the semi-automatic rifle competition, the second heavy bomber competition, etc).

The US is developing along it's historical lines (semi-automatic rifles, motorization, radial engines, etc), but again somewhat earlier, because of the rising world tensions, the lack of the Great Depression, etc.


As far as what arms can a smaller country maintain, that depends. For instance, I don't see any difficulty in a smaller power (say Siam, Persia, or Peru) equipping a force with almost any WWII period infantry weapon. There simply isn't that much of a learning curve difference between a bolt-action rifle and a semi-automatic rifle (though if the country is fairly ill-literate, like the OTL USSR, special training may be necessary to maintain a finicky semi-auto like the Tokarev). Basic artillery isn't difficult to operate, though the battery commanders and fire direction center operators will need to be well trained specialists (but that's true for most any army anyway). Motorized vehicles will need more trained personnel, but small forces by comparison to population are perfectly feasible, they're elite, well trained troops. If the population is semi-illiterate, they're likely drawn, at least in part, from the more middle-class, educated segment of the population, while others are getting more training.

Siam's Take:

Siam is a polygamist nation with (on average) over 1000 'princes' who are in the royal family (brothers nephews and grandnephews of the King). As it's not unknown for a King of Siam to historically have 100 brothers and for each of them to have over 100 sons by multiple dozens of women, my royal family alone could supply enough officers for a brigade. Add in the minor nobility and I have at least enough well-educated men for a nice-sized army group. The middle-class children- the sons of traders and manufacturers- would be plentiful among NCO's. As for the private soldiers, I have more than enough villagers to populate my army who can be taught the very simple tasks that comprise basic soldiering.

Siam, due to direct Danish occupation and aid, will be far more advanced than in OTL, probably about the level that OTL Poland or Spain might have been at. Bolt-action and some semi-auto personal weapons for the infantry. Revolvers and some few semi-auto pistols for the NCO's and officers and a sub-machine gun or two. Belt-fed MG's are common by this time so Siam would have them in adequate numbers. Tanks aren't too important in a jungle nation, but artillery is going to be developed rapidly, as well as mine warfare.

Siam's navy will be qualitatively better than OTL, but still a small navy as most the nations of the world go. Their air force will be advanced and more plentiful as Siam here has different goals.

My take is in some ways unique.

Having a purely fictional country I have no historical national presedent to follow loosly like Germany, America or France. Therefore I have to chart my own path.

In that reguard I've tried to structure Atlantis industrially along the lines of France, Germany and Britain. Over the sim years Atlantis has gone from 27 factory's to 31, with another satilite nations factory (currently building) potentially in the mix.

Overall Atlantis has followed French developements for its Army emidiately post great war and my aircraft rely's somewhat on French and Argentinian designs as well, Atlantis and Argentina share quite a few aircraft designs.

With reguards to aircraft I've tried to stay closer to historical with all aircraft but several designs follow the +3 year rule to keep up with others. The same can be said for my land equipment with the latest tank designs pushing the envelope. The bulk of my tank force is still the BT-5,7 clones and T4 clones.