WesWorld

Gentlemen,

according to our rules a ship undergoing a refit needs a port to replace/alter deck mounts holding guns of 65+mm. Those changes are also rated a major refit (25%).

Why did we limit refits/repairs done by tenders to < 65mm guns? Why is the limit not set to 155mm - which is about the heaviest gun caliber used in deck mounts (ignoring few exeptions like british 190mm singles on some cruisers)?

Historically repair ships or tender for submarines, mine sweeper and the like often were used for such work as long as fitted with a crane heavy enough.

I propose to alter the rules to allow guns of up to 155mm caliber to be replaced, repaired or modified by the use of tenders (minor refit, 15%). We just need to move the line under chapter 2.2.2.3 "-Alterations to guns of 66mm-195mm not involving barbette alterations: P" to chapter 2.2.2.2 replacing -Changes to deck mounted guns of 65mm and smaller served by hoists: T " and changed from P to T.

Regards,

HoOmAn

I have no problem with this proposed change.

Sounds emminently reasonable to me.........
Right, where did I leave those refit plans??????

Quoted

Right, where did I leave those refit plans??????

You mean the ones that ended up among the trash that I just torched? :-)

I think we need a change to the rules surrounding <200ton wooden vessels as well. I'll write up a proposal sometime.

The change seems reasonable to me.

Makes sense to me.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
I think we need a change to the rules surrounding <200ton wooden vessels as well. I'll write up a proposal sometime.

In what way, length of building time?

Okay, I´ll change it.

Quoted

Wooden vessels of 200 tons and smaller, 150ft and smaller, can be constructed at a number of
0,1-75ts: 1 vessel/3 factories/month
75-200ts: 1 vessel/3 factories/quarter.

Constructing such craft does not require use of the slips or
docks in a players infrastructure, as long as no more than 1 craft per month per whole three factories, is
constructed, but constructing such craft still requires an amount of materials equal to its light displacement out
of the nations war-materials production, in the month the vessel is constructed. For the purposes of the sim,
the construction of such a craft is assumed to last exactly one month, all of it on slip. Repairs do not occupy any
capacity, but are still paid for in materials. Shake-down cruise is assumed to last 1 month for full effect.

Change this to;

"Each factory produces 50 tons of extra materials per quarter that can be spent on wooden vessels smaller than 200 tons and 150ft. Constructing such craft does not require use of the slips or docks in a players infrastructure, as long as not more than 2 craft per quarter per factory, are
constructed, but constructing such craft still requires an amount of materials equal to its light displacement out
of the nations war-materials production, in the month the vessel is constructed. For the purposes of the sim,
the construction of such a craft is assumed to last exactly one month, all of it on slip. Repairs do not occupy any
capacity, but are still paid for in materials. Shake-down cruise is assumed to last 1 month for full effect."

This takes into account the different sizes of ship below 200tons. Surely its possible to build more 15t boats than it is 75tons. Build time goes up to 1 quarter per vessel. This places limitations how many smaller craft can be built; i.e. what infrastructure you have available.

I think the "2 hulls per factory"-part could be used as it is quite simple but I don´t see why factories should produce even more material. Countries already have too much "money" in WesWorld.

Running some calculations I also think your rule allows more light crafts to be produced than the old rule. At least for some players.

Example: The SAE has 26 factories. So your rules allow the RSAN to lay down 52 hulls of up to 200ts per quarter. Using our current rules the RSAN can lay down only 8 hulls larger than 75ts and 26 hulls of the up to 75ts type. So the old rules allow a total of 34 hulls of which only 8 are allowed to be larger than 75ts.

I also fail to see how your rule takes care of the difference in size among light crafts better than the old rule. In both cases one has to spend material for the vessels light displacement.

To sum it up: I´d like to stick with the old rules. Your rule allows more hulls to be produced and increases the material the countries in WesWorld already have at hand. I fail to see why we need this.

Nevertheless, I´d agree to "lift" the border line between both light craft categories to 100ts instead of 75ts if that helps most players needs.

Quoted

Example: The SAE has 26 factories. So your rules allow the RSAN to lay down 52 hulls of up to 200ts per quarter. Using our current rules the RSAN can lay down only 8 hulls larger than 75ts and 26 hulls of the up to 75ts type. So the old rules allow a total of 34 hulls of which only 8 are allowed to be larger than 75ts.

26 factories
50 x 26 = 1300tons available
Maximum of 52 vessels can be built
1300/52 means that these are 25ton vessels, quite small things
1300/200 = 6.5 200ton craft can be built
1300/50 (normal size MTB) = 26 crafts, about the same as now
1300/10 (very very small MTB) = 130crafts but only allowed 52 max

And your point is?

The way things are now slips are not required, my suggestion would be to set a base limit that would require factory's only, we already have one but is it satisfactory?, any number of craft above this would require slips of the proper size. Perhaps 75 tons and up would require slips?

2 craft per factory is generous, I've built a maximum of around 1 MTB for every factory a year, in an attempt to bring numbers up quickly but I've also used slips for every boat simply to avoid the hastle of figuring out how many boats of what size to build, that and I have the reserve infrastructure to use.

Go for this instead;

2 crafts smaller than 25t per factory per quarter
1 craft smaller than 100t per factory per quarter
1 craft smaller than 200t per 3 whole factories per quarter

Awfully rough break-points there, with 1 factory required for a 99t vessel and 3 required for a 101t vessel. Can't say as I like the values, either, if I'm going to build the historical E-boats or R-boats.

Looking at my MTB source books it would appear that a PT boat requires roughly 9 months to build but I'm unable to determine the level of production numbers without some serious studying. To some extent the current rules seem similate this building time by acctually limiting the numbers built per factory (3 exactly).

In WW rules a 50 ton ship would take literally weeks to build given its miniscule tonnage usage. Without any limit on numbers 1 factory (1000 tons of warship materials can produce 20 of these vessels.

Perhaps we should require that a factory would need to be dedicated to producing these types of vessels and the number of ships would be limited by their size and the factory's output. A separate wooden warship materials stockpile would likely be nessassary.

For example Atlantis dedicates 1 factory to wooden vessel materials, 1000 tons is created and Atlantis builds 14 of its 68 ton Type 1 Motorlaunch/minelayers for a total of 952 tons used. Atlantis then stockpiles the remaining 48 tons for next quarter.

We could also limit the number of vessels allowed to build a quarter or year based on the current or an entirely new vessels per factory ratio allowing for the factory's to be dedicated to wooden vessel materials for one quarter instead of the usual 4.

Thoughts?

I would go for a seperate wooden materials factory, give every nation only one to limit how many they can build. This would stop the unlikely scenario of a nation building MTB in four factories and outbuilding a smaller nation. We could then still build more than the current rules, 14 versus 3. Is this a problem since the lifespan of these vessels short anyway and the lack of repairs or refits on these craft? Or what about the above seperate factory being graduated, say 250/500/1000 tons on a ratio of how many factories a nation has?

I stand opposed to any proposal including new factories, more material, special dedicated sources, slips for these ships etc.

The rule we have so far is simple to use and easy to understand. What I´ve read here is too complex methinks.

We need an EASY rule.

If everybody agrees there is a need to modify our rules to allow very small vessels to be build in even greater number I propose to go with RA´s latest idea.

2 crafts smaller than 25t per factory per quarter
1 craft smaller than 100t per factory per quarter
1 craft smaller than 200t per 3 whole factories per quarter

The material for these boats has to be taken from a country´s normal production.

KEEP IN MIND: The "material" each factory produces is just a substitute! This means it is not material = steel . Otherwise we wouldn´t have been able to build ships anyway as we all would lack rubber, wood and other stuff necessary for any ship, large or small.

Quoted

Awfully rough break-points there, with 1 factory required for a 99t vessel and 3 required for a 101t vessel. Can't say as I like the values, either, if I'm going to build the historical E-boats or R-boats.

Same at the moment with 74ton and 76ton craft.