WesWorld

Looking at the ocst of rebuilding the Kypris and Makedonia to replacing them with new 22,000 ton ships figuring that 1930's armour is better than 1909 armour and new ships are a better long term investment.

The choice is 7 or 8 12" guns. The difference is 0.5 knots and 2" of belt. Which would you go for given that this should replace the 2 BC and perhaps more to replace the 2 8" ships.


7 gun upper 8 gun lower


Design 7x12", Greek Battlecruiser laid down 1937

Displacement:
22,041 t light; 23,184 t standard; 24,834 t normal; 26,155 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(735.01 ft / 721.00 ft) x 90.00 ft x (23.50 / 24.46 ft)
(224.03 m / 219.76 m) x 27.43 m x (7.16 / 7.46 m)

Armament:
7 - 12.00" / 305 mm 49.7 cal guns - 913.35lbs / 414.29kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts , 1937 Model
1 x 3-gun mount on centreline, aft deck forward
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, forward deck forward
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 59.33lbs / 26.91kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts , 1937 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
12 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 2.14lbs / 0.97kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts , 1937 Model
6 x Quad mounts on centreline, evenly spread
34 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts , 1937 Model
34 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 7,140 lbs / 7,140 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 403.76 ft / 123.07 m 11.38 ft / 3.47 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 86 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0.50" / 13 mm 403.76 ft / 123.07 m 21.37 ft / 6.51 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 5.00" / 127 mm, Conning tower: 9.00" / 229 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 105,140 shp / 78,434 Kw = 30.50 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,971 tons

Complement:
988 - 1,285

Cost:
£10.361 million / $41.443 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,716 tons, 6.9 %
Armour: 8,526 tons, 34.3 %
- Belts: 2,380 tons, 9.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 160 tons, 0.6 %
- Armament: 1,376 tons, 5.5 %
- Armour Deck: 4,446 tons, 17.9 %
- Conning Tower: 165 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2,914 tons, 11.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,644 tons, 38.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,793 tons, 11.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.4 %
- Hull below water: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
42,546 lbs / 19,298 Kg = 49.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak, low quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.570 / 0.577
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.01 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.95 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 22.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.30 ft / 1.01 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 22.00 %, 26.50 ft / 8.08 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Forward deck: 16.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Aft deck: 40.00 %, 23.00 ft / 7.01 m, 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Quarter deck: 22.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 19.50 ft / 5.94 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 194.6 %
Waterplane Area: 48,061 Square feet or 4,465 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 152 lbs/sq ft or 743 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.04
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Design 8x12", Greek Battlecruiser laid down 1937

Displacement:
21,965 t light; 23,184 t standard; 24,834 t normal; 26,155 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(735.01 ft / 721.00 ft) x 90.00 ft x (23.50 / 24.46 ft)
(224.03 m / 219.76 m) x 27.43 m x (7.16 / 7.46 m)

Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm 49.7 cal guns - 913.35lbs / 414.29kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts , 1937 Model
2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline, aft deck forward
1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 59.33lbs / 26.91kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts , 1937 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
12 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 2.14lbs / 0.97kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts , 1937 Model
6 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
34 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts , 1937 Model
34 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,054 lbs / 8,054 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.50" / 241 mm 407.00 ft / 124.05 m 11.38 ft / 3.47 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
0.50" / 13 mm 407.00 ft / 124.05 m 21.37 ft / 6.51 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 5.00" / 127 mm, Conning tower: 9.00" / 229 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 98,706 shp / 73,634 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,971 tons

Complement:
988 - 1,285

Cost:
£10.724 million / $42.895 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,936 tons, 7.8 %
Armour: 8,230 tons, 33.1 %
- Belts: 1,928 tons, 7.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 161 tons, 0.6 %
- Armament: 1,530 tons, 6.2 %
- Armour Deck: 4,446 tons, 17.9 %
- Conning Tower: 165 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2,736 tons, 11.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,930 tons, 40.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,869 tons, 11.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.4 %
- Hull below water: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
41,432 lbs / 18,793 Kg = 48.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak, low quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.570 / 0.577
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.01 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.95 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 22.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.30 ft / 1.01 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 22.00 %, 26.50 ft / 8.08 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Forward deck: 9.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Aft deck: 48.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarter deck: 21.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 18.94 ft / 5.77 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 192.1 %
Waterplane Area: 48,061 Square feet or 4,465 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 158 lbs/sq ft or 769 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.03
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Thoughts?

Cheers,

It is so hideous that it would kill the enemy with its looks alone so why bother putting guns on it.
Besides the fact that it is really ugly, it's okay I guess, except for the 0.50" TBH which I think is a bit thin.

I agree on all count's. Why not try two quads?

The chief Bulgarian naval architect makes a personal visit to the Greek naval architects, begging them to design "something that doesn't look like my first wife after she killed a mad cow with her face".

"This, ladies and gentlemen," he said afterwards to the press, "is why we like to stay in the Black Sea!"



Seriously, though. The ugliness issue aside, her specs look very agreeable, appear to be on par with the German B&Ds. I too would have added more of a TBH.

I noticed that with that particular freeboard, none of the main guns are superfiring, which is correct. Yet with the secondaries, all mounts are superfiring eventhough the 4 on the sides are clearly on the same level as the aftmost main gun(s) and thus should not be superfiring mounts. Also it looks to me like two of those mounts (the superfiring ones) should be marked in your S3 file as being on the centerline.

Quoted

I agree on all count's. Why not try two quads?

I don't want to risk a Blue on Blue encounter if they look too much like Turkish ships...

I also don't like huge holes in small ships. Thats why I have the twin forward so there is more depth for the tds.

Quoted

Yet with the secondaries, all mounts are superfiring eventhough the 4 on the sides are clearly on the same level as the aftmost main gun(s) and thus should not be superfiring mounts. Also it looks to me like two of those mounts (the superfiring ones) should be marked in your S3 file as being on the centerline.

Yep, the secondaries need attention. I wasn't sure on how much space there was. I'm also thinking of placing secondaries outside the citadel but with box protection on the aft deck.

Thanks for the comments, perhaps a more conventional two forward one aft using the same freeboard concept to exploit not needing a superfiring turret. I'd thought chasing down 8" treaty cruisers I'd like more guns forward, that made the 7 gun version appealing.

Cheers,

Of the two, the 7x12 seems better, mainly due to the better belt. Looking at Scharnhorst's theoretical penetration values, the 9.5" of the 8x12 may not be adequate against newer BCs.

The 30/30.5knt speed seems to be at an odd point. Many treaty cruisers are already faster, and there is a good chance that the next generation of battleships will be about this 28-30knt area, which means the next gen of 'cruisers' will likely be even a little faster.

Which means she's not likely to run down a BC or CA, and can't always stay clear of future BBs. I would advocate either faster or heavier guns & armor.

Armor :
I would like to see more belt height.

Normally, I advocate thicker barbettes, but at 12" your barbettes will fail after the belt, while the turret face will yield earlier. I would advocate removing 1-2" from the barbette and adding to the turret face.

The .5" holding bulkhead is likely only good against flooding from near-miss bombs. From what I recall reading, 20mm is good against light shell splinters, and 40mm vs. heavy/HE, so I would think the bulkhead is unlikely to stop parts of the shell plating flung at it by an explosion.

I have to admit, while I like twin/triple combos for some reason, Nevada for example, I do not care for 7 guns...but I am failing to come up with a satisfactory reason why.

If you went to a 2x3 or 3x2, could you up the battery to 13.5" ?

It seems the deficencies dictate a bigger ship so possibly the 12" guns should be 8" or 10" to gain the requisite speed and armor. Perhaps 12 8" in quads or 9 10". If I went for 13.5" I'd have to stretch to 14" as Greece has 3 ships armed with 14" guns. I prefer 7 to 6 guns. Again, its growth. At some point I'm better off making another full size battleship and staying with numbers of 8000 ton CL.

Cheers,

In that case I would go smaller guns and faster. A 9x10" can't be horribly outgunned by any new BC unless they are full battleship sized, and is comparable/outguns existing ACs/BCs.

But will be enough to be armed with 10" guns? Already the Peruvian Villars will be carrying eight 12" while going at 32 knots. I can't recall the armor but IIRC it was fairly similar in a very close displacement. And I think similar ships are being build starting next year that in other nations.

I'm going to build a 9x10" gunned heavy cruiser starting in a few years. It's not intended to be a battlecruiser, just a plain old Heavy Cruiser.

These designs are superior, but they're also nearly 10,000 tons heavier.

Well I was figuring the 9x10" would either be smaller for the same speed and/or faster. It all depends on what you want the ship to be doing in the end.

The Indian/Peruvian vessel is decent, has more speed and much the same armor, though the 1" less deck armor may account for some of the differences. This could also be a SS2 vs. SS3 issue.

Quoted

Originally posted by alt_naval

I don't want to risk a Blue on Blue encounter if they look too much like Turkish ships...

I also don't like huge holes in small ships. Thats why I have the twin forward so there is more depth for the tds.

Cheers,

They are essentially similar in size to the historical French Dunkerque class so I think its still quite possible. With an all quads forward (and that hidious superstructure ) its difficult to confuse them with Turkish vessels!

I remember having similar problems with the design process that led to Megas Alexandros. There is not much point in building 2 27000ton ships when it should be a 40000 ton capital ship and a 14000 ton cruiser. 12" guns are too small to put on a ship over 30,000tons. 14" can't be done less than 30,000tons. Perhaps the hull shape is not optimal for what I've tried to do.

Cheers,

The only crtique I'd make is that if chasing an enemy she can only bring to bear 4-5 guns on her bows and if being chased there is no aft guns at all (given her lowish speed this could be hazardous). The middle turret is only useful for broadside encounters. Two qauds split fore and aft, I feel, would be better.

While I know the RN has the Invincibles at least they have a rear turret with some limited arcs and I didn't design them anyway!

At long range the elevation of the guns would clear the forward turret so I'd have 7-8 guns to bear on a fleeing target. The other problem is the faster you go the harder it is to hit.

Here is another alternative. Down to 10" guns and less 2" of deck but with 34 knots speed.



Design 8x10", Greek Battlecruiser laid down 1937

Displacement:
22,221 t light; 23,184 t standard; 24,834 t normal; 26,155 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(737.23 ft / 721.00 ft) x 90.00 ft x (23.50 / 24.46 ft)
(224.71 m / 219.76 m) x 27.43 m x (7.16 / 7.46 m)

Armament:
8 - 10.00" / 254 mm 49.7 cal guns - 528.56lbs / 239.75kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts , 1937 Model
2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm 40.0 cal guns - 59.90lbs / 27.17kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts , 1937 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 2.14lbs / 0.97kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts , 1937 Model
6 x Quad mounts on centreline, evenly spread
34 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts , 1937 Model
34 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4,982 lbs / 4,982 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 471.00 ft / 143.56 m 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 471.00 ft / 143.56 m 24.00 ft / 7.32 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 9.00" / 229 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -

- Armour deck: 3.30" / 84 mm, Conning tower: 9.00" / 229 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 160,497 shp / 119,731 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,971 tons

Complement:
988 - 1,285

Cost:
£10.373 million / $41.491 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,479 tons, 6.0 %
Armour: 6,981 tons, 28.1 %
- Belts: 2,107 tons, 8.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 418 tons, 1.7 %
- Armament: 1,356 tons, 5.5 %
- Armour Deck: 2,934 tons, 11.8 %
- Conning Tower: 165 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 4,448 tons, 17.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,095 tons, 40.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,613 tons, 10.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.4 %
- Hull below water: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
42,298 lbs / 19,186 Kg = 84.6 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 5.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 17.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak, low quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.570 / 0.577
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.01 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.95 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 22.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.30 ft / 1.01 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 22.00 %, 32.00 ft / 9.75 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forward deck: 5.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Aft deck: 58.00 %, 29.00 ft / 8.84 m, 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 26.13 ft / 7.96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 262.1 %
Waterplane Area: 48,061 Square feet or 4,465 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 120 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 149 lbs/sq ft or 729 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Quoted

8 - 10.00" / 254 mm 49.7 cal guns - 528.56lbs / 239.75kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts , 1937 Model
2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward

Doesn't really match the picture as far as I can see, you've got two mounts forward and only one aft.

- Forecastle: 22.00 %, 32.00 ft / 9.75 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forward deck: 5.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Aft deck: 58.00 %, 29.00 ft / 8.84 m, 29.00 ft / 8.84 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m

The forward deck is 5% where the 2 gun mount is. The aft deck is the raised part that has two 3 gun mounts at either end. I did a print screen off of SS and used the diagram for my drawing.

Cheers,

Does this look better?

Cheers,

Yes it looks much neater now and more 'ordinary'. Your first designs were not ugly but more 'different' and unique in design.