WesWorld

Another new ship for 1934, with credit to Monty and his Acadia for the inspiration for the final design.

The original plan for the RAN had included 3 CL squadrons, each composed of 2 CLs, 1 CLS, and a "Heavy" CL. But Australia's exit from Cleito change the plan. The CL squadrons would no longer have a "Heavy" and the LLC design was therefore changed to that of a General Purpose Cruiser capable of independant action.

The original design was a simple outgrowth of the current CLs, the new version has several important changes. The AC was moved amidship, the single 4" guns where replaced with twins, the torpedoes where fitted with waterproof shutters and an autogyro pad was fitted after. The changes made with a view towards long independant deployments.


Original design top, final on bottom

HMAS Sydney, Australia Large Light Cruiser (original design) laid down 1934

Displacement:
7,717 t light; 8,080 t standard; 9,802 t normal; 11,179 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
601.66 ft / 590.00 ft x 59.00 ft x 21.90 ft (normal load)
183.39 m / 179.83 m x 17.98 m x 6.68 m

Armament:
15 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (5x3 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1934 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1934 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
20 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1934 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,912 lbs / 867 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 340.00 ft / 103.63 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 89 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 1.20" / 30 mm 1.20" / 30 mm
2nd: 1.20" / 30 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.90" / 48 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 70,807 shp / 52,822 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,099 tons

Complement:
492 - 640

Cost:
£3.712 million / $14.846 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 239 tons, 2.4 %
Armour: 1,544 tons, 15.8 %
- Belts: 518 tons, 5.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 216 tons, 2.2 %
- Armour Deck: 811 tons, 8.3 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 2,037 tons, 20.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,847 tons, 39.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,084 tons, 21.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13,749 lbs / 6,236 Kg = 127.3 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 14.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.450
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.89 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 19.72 ft / 6.01 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129.4 %
Waterplane Area: 23,065 Square feet or 2,143 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 129 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 103 lbs/sq ft or 501 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.53
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily



***



HMAS Sydney, Australia Large Light Cruiser (final design) laid down 1934

Displacement:
8,023 t light; 8,400 t standard; 10,160 t normal; 11,567 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
601.66 ft / 590.00 ft x 59.00 ft x 22.70 ft (normal load)
183.39 m / 179.83 m x 17.98 m x 6.92 m

Armament:
15 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (5x3 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1934 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
10 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (5x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1934 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
20 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1934 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,976 lbs / 896 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 340.00 ft / 103.63 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 89 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 1.20" / 30 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.20" / 30 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 72,414 shp / 54,021 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,167 tons

Complement:
505 - 657

Cost:
£3.829 million / $15.316 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 247 tons, 2.4 %
Armour: 1,656 tons, 16.3 %
- Belts: 518 tons, 5.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 284 tons, 2.8 %
- Armour Deck: 853 tons, 8.4 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 2,083 tons, 20.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,962 tons, 39.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,136 tons, 21.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 0.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13,881 lbs / 6,296 Kg = 128.5 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.450
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.89 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127.4 %
Waterplane Area: 23,065 Square feet or 2,143 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 129 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 104 lbs/sq ft or 507 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.59
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

She's interesting.

Why didn't you just go to 10x7.5" or 10x8" guns instead? Its probably better for your MO.

I'd ditch the autogyro pad and put the aircraft aft again. Not really enough space on long deployments to keep an autogyro on deck and the aircraft is safer aft. Less chance of a fire amidships.

Don't the turrets need to be higher, else you've got onyl 3 guns bearing fore/aft?

With two catapults as shown, I think you'd better allocate 100 t.

Good speed, decent protection. I don't recall autogyroes doing anything so far that would warrant buying a can of paint to make the circled A.

As a nitpick, your crane can't access your boats. I'd suggest moving the boats up beside the crane and moving the 40 mm aft to just in front of the secondaries.

Looks good...

Quoted

Why didn't you just go to 10x7.5" or 10x8" guns instead? Its probably better for your MO

ROF and 7.5" guns would require a bigger ship.

Quoted

With two catapults as shown, I think you'd better allocate 100 t.

I just have to find 25 tons somewhere.

Quoted

As a nitpick, your crane can't access your boats. I'd suggest moving the boats up beside the crane and moving the 40 mm aft to just in front of the secondaries.

The boats have a separate crane between them, but its not shown on the picture.

Quoted

I'd ditch the autogyro pad and put the aircraft aft again. Not really enough space on long deployments to keep an autogyro on deck and the aircraft is safer aft. Less chance of a fire amidships.

I don't recall autogyroes doing anything so far that would warrant buying a can of paint to make the circled A.

The midship location provides space for a hangar which is very important for her role. The other cruisers are to operate with a fleet meaning their aircraft are disposable not so for this one. She wont carry a gyro regularly but has the capability.

The autogyro will form an important part of the RAN. They can operate from small areas, are very cheap and easy to operate, and can be used for ASW, artillery spotting, and trasfering personel from ship to ship. They are being operated of skycrapers for mail delivery in this time period. CAC is working on a gyro for the RAN and most new ships will be built with the capability to operate them. Frigates and merchants will use them for ASW, cruisers for artillery spotting.

Could you cite a source for:

-cheaper and easier to operate
-the projected uses
-employment as a mail delivery system on skyscrapers

Considering that the only Wesworld autogyroes are based on a prototype that seems never to have worked properly, I think you're employing an unreasonable amount of hindsight here.

You're forgeting Canada's development and testing of it's 'Flying Contraption' While not a conventional autogyro, it's not unreasonable to think Oz might be paying attention and developing doctrine and tactics, especially with the high degree of Aussie/Canuck cooperation going on in WW.

Wikipedia

Compared to helicopters, autogyros are cheaper and easier to operate, and the small ones like the ones that the RAN will operate are about as easy to operate as a DeHavilland Moth.

Quoted

The Japanese Army developed the Kayaba Ka-1 Autogyro for reconnaissance, artillery-spotting, and anti-submarine uses.

The Japanese used autogyros during WWII for the tasks I have in mind. Any aircraft can be used for artillery spotting. RAN gyros wont be used for ASW for a while but they can also do that, mainly as a spotting plataform, but they can carry light (<250lb) bombs in lieu of an observer.

Quoted

They were, however, used in the 1930s by major newspapers, and by the US Postal Service for mail service between the Camden, NJ airport (USA) and the top of the post office building in downtown Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (USA).

Autogyros have been around for quite a while so its not unreasonable.They just werent used alot because helicopters are simply better (if more complicated) And while Oz has been watching the Crazy Canucks my gyros will actually be sane.

Quoted

Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
-cheaper and easier to operate

Considering that the only Wesworld autogyroes are based on a prototype that seems never to have worked properly, I think you're employing an unreasonable amount of hindsight here.

They are definitely easier to operate than helicopters. They are far less maintenance intensive as the rotor autorotates. Their maintenance proceedures would be similar to a conventional aircraft.

I used the WC.29 as guideline for size/weight. It was the largest built at the time, so the one most suited to carrying payload, be they a couple of bombs, food, mail or people. The ground resonance problem could be easily solved by changing the engine to one that runs at a different rpm - or extensive damping.

Considering the large use of airships here as well, when the vast majority either burnt or got destroyed by weather...

Quoted

You're forgeting Canada's development and testing of it's 'Flying Contraption' While not a conventional autogyro, it's not unreasonable to think Oz might be paying attention and developing doctrine and tactics, especially with the high degree of Aussie/Canuck cooperation going on in WW.

I agree that there's likely to be Aussie/Canadian cooperation; however, I'm not aware of Canada's Flying Contraption having any basis in a functional historical design. Thus I wasn't really counting it.

Quoted

The Japanese used autogyros during WWII for the tasks I have in mind. Any aircraft can be used for artillery spotting. RAN gyros wont be used for ASW for a while but they can also do that, mainly as a spotting plataform, but they can carry light (<250lb) bombs in lieu of an observer.

This may be - but we're only in 1933. As for the mail service, its use on one single run does not imply large-scale practicality.

Quoted

Considering the large use of airships here as well, when the vast majority either burnt or got destroyed by weather...

If you'd like me to state my thoughts on airships, sure, they're probably more popular in Wesworld than is warranted; but this doesn't invalidate my thoughts about autogyros.

Quoted

This may be - but we're only in 1933. As for the mail service, its use on one single run does not imply large-scale practicality.

The first operational gyros will be in 1935, considering that we are 3 years ahead of time and that the Japanese Kayaba Ka-1 entered service in 1938, it looks about right. After all this is the Golden Age of Gyros before the helos arrive.

Floatplanes are actualy much better than gyros at almost anything, being faster, longer ranged, with bigger payloads, and more surviveable.The only advantage of gyros over planes is their S/VTOL capability, which allows them to operate without cats and cranes.

Autogyros definitely do work and are quite simple things. Load carrying capability is small but for a small and cheap scouting aircraft they're fine. Quite useful for looking what is under the sea. Its relatively easy to spot submarines from the air in the clear waters of the Med.

Why weren't they used more historically. By the time they are becoming viable in the early/mid 30s no one has the money available for funding them - then their main proponent Cierva dies and by the late 30s - early 40s proper helicopters are becoming reliable so the autogyro was squeezed out. A share remains in the sector because they are cheap to operate. An individual operating an autogyro is relatively cheap, but a helicopter becomes to maintenance intensive.

How are the autogyro's going to take off, though? Most needed a running start, it wasn't until the "jump-gyros" (which had a clutch between the engine and the overhead blades to get them spinning under power) that they could takeoff vertically (as long as the conditions were right) and even then they needed to transition to forward flight pretty quickly because the rotor was losing speed and hence lift since it was no longer powered.

Germany is currently not planning on joining the autogyro craze, believing that for it's purposes the floatplanes are superior. Later, helicopters might be adopted for some roles, but we'll have to see.

A question that hasn't come up yet in regards to Autogyros; Can they be catapulted?

I don't see a reason not too. Depends on the type of catapult. Need a smaller force for an autogyro as you don't have to accelerate it to as high a speed. Stall speed is typically 20knts, so accelerating up to 70-80knts isn't needed.

Quoted

Germany is currently not planning on joining the autogyro craze

I don't really think this can be termed as a craze.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
I don't see a reason not too. Depends on the type of catapult. Need a smaller force for an autogyro as you don't have to accelerate it to as high a speed. Stall speed is typically 20knts, so accelerating up to 70-80knts isn't needed.

Can your run-of-the-mill 1930s shipboard catapults be set for different speeds/forces without extensive work and adjustmets (ie; can it be done at sea on a regular basis)?

Some cats were explosive and some used compressed air. I suppose it would be possible to use different amounts of explosive or different air pressures.

What's the takeoff speed of your typical 1930s 'gyro? Perhaps the speed of the ship itself might be enough to allow a 'vertical' takeoff, or enough nearly so that mere deckspace would be succifficent.


edit - and this might also be of interest.

If memory serves correctly (and that's wishful thinking sometimes!!)
they can get airbourne at 15 mph if the rotor is turning properly, hence the idea of pre-spinning the rotor.
But on the stern of a destroyer, doing 25 knots or so, who needs to pre-rotate???

Personally, I think the autogyro is a device that got lost in the rush to fly faster, higher, further.

It is far easier to fly than a Helo, having many of the characteristics of a plane, but without the dangerous stall problem (or most of it, you can't save a muppet!)

Denmark and Iberia are spending time and money on Autogyro research, it has a lot of potential.

Ooops, don't press the button twice!!!!