WesWorld

Harry had said these two ships exist but there were no details. They seem to be in the same category as some Iberian crusiers of the same period so I worked on about 15,000tons and guns between 8" and 10". Not quite a battlecruiser - more a super armoured cruiser.

I'm just sketching these out, they are like Harry's previous ships - French influence and American armament.

Cheers,



Helle-15k, GREEK Cruiser laid down 1909

Displacement:
13,299 t light; 14,042 t standard; 16,918 t normal; 19,151 t full load
Loading submergence 816 tons/feet

Dimensions:
664.00 ft x 76.80 ft x 27.60 ft (normal load)
202.39 m x 23.41 m x 8.41 m

Armament:
8 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (4 Main turrets x 2 guns, 2 superfiring turrets)
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns
Secondary guns mounted low & subject to being washed down in a seaway
8 - 3.00" / 76 mm QF guns
Weight of broadside 4,858 lbs / 2,204 kg
4 - 0.0" / 0 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
Belt 6.50" / 165 mm, end belts 2.00" / 51 mm
Belts cover 80 % of normal area
Main turrets 8.00" / 203 mm, 2nd casemates 2.00" / 51 mm
Armour deck 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 52,922 shp / 39,480 Kw = 26.50 kts
Range 6,500nm at 15.00 kts

Complement:
741 - 964

Cost:
£1.346 million / $5.384 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 607 tons, 3.6 %
Armour: 3,556 tons, 21.0 %
Belts: 1,127 tons, 6.7 %, Armament: 1,231 tons, 7.3 %, Armour Deck: 1,056 tons, 6.2 %
Conning Tower: 142 tons, 0.8 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 2,646 tons, 15.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,489 tons, 38.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,619 tons, 21.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Metacentric height 3.9

Remarks:
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation & workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1.08
Shellfire needed to sink: 19,806 lbs / 8,984 Kg = 39.6 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 2.6
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 71 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0.46
Relative quality as seaboat: 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0.421
Sharpness coefficient: 0.32
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 7.91
'Natural speed' for length: 25.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim: 59
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 79.0 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 118.9 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 123 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0.99
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 142 lbs / square foot or 691 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1.14
(for 16.20 ft / 4.94 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment -0.62 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 1.00

Damn, but shouldn't these ships have been scrapped in 1921 because they are 14,000t and have 10" guns?

I'm working on the following section in the CT;

VIII.

Notwithstanding the above clauses, the Kingdom of Greece and the
Kingdom of Iberia shall be allowed to retain cruisers in commission or
building armed with guns of a size up to 7 inches (178 millimetres)
without being obliged to charge these guns against the maximum tonnage
allowed Greece and Iberia of cruisers of sub-category (a). This
exception shall be valid for, and only for, the purpose of determining
which ships may be retained upon the coming into effect of the treaty.
This exception shall not be valid for determining whether Greece or
Iberia may lay down further cruisers of sub-category (a) - for the
determination of which cruisers, if any, Greece or Iberia may lay down,
and when Greece or Iberia may lay down these cruisers, Greece and
Iberia shall be obliged to apply the same principles as the other
Contracting Powers.

----

and Iberia's Navarra class with 9.45" guns and 15,000tons

Shall I get the razor blade out and do some trimming?

Cheers,

The clause above does allow Iberia and Greece to keep some cruisers in category B (light cruisers) which would otherwise be rated as category A (heavy cruisers).

This was done because both countries had relatively new light cruisers with 178mm guns which they had to rearm or scrap otherwise - or spend all their tonnage allowed for category A.

The upper limit for guns on cruisers (210mm) is unimpaired.

So every ship with larger guns - like EL CID for example - has to be rated as capital ship except it can be rated CDS.

Thus your design has to be rated against Greece´ capital ship tonnage and number of hulls. (Like NAVARRA is rated against Iberia´s capital ship tonnage - at least she should be.)

Regarding your drawing I have to admit I like it. It is a really nice looking ship. However, her layout is well ahead of her era - especially when compared to other ACs laid down 1908/09 like NAVARRA, the german ScHARNHORST or several british designs.

Her look´s too beautiful to alter it so I hope there´s a chance to alter the designs age or use the drawing for another design.

For 1909 she´s too advanced - my opinion of course.

Regards,

HoOmAn

That reminds me - does Greece have Averoff in this timeline?

The Navarra class have been converted into carriers.

The Santa Marias and El Cid are all rated as Capital ships.

Helle has 10" guns and is more than 8,000t so she must be rated as a capital ship. That puts Greece 2 ships(at least) over the limit for number of hulls.

I think the only thing to do is make her smaller and have lots of 8" turrets.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
I think the only thing to do is make her smaller and have lots of 8" turrets.

Not necessarily. She could be converted into a CV, too. Or just be scrapped and kept in mind as a good but overgrown AC - the guns being used for a CDS. Third option could be to convert her into a training vessel.

Whatever, her original design has to be found first and as it seems she was planned with guns larger than 210mm.

Regards,

HoOmAn

Its a shame such a beautifull cruiser would have to hit the scrap heap!! She does seem to be ahead of her time, when you look at the German Blucher, Iberian Navarra and Atlantian Lyra class AC's all lacking super emposed turrets.

This definately would be a good design to emerge in the next year.

Quoted

Its a shame such a beautifull cruiser would have to hit the scrap heap!!

I agree. Is it not possible to alter the pic to remove the super emposed turrets and make it a bit less 'modern', make it a bit smaller and lighter so it will fall in the AC class, without loosing the beauty of that picture?

I don't think she is too modern. Blucher was laid down in 1906, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau around the beginning of 1905 I think. Even the Greek Averoff was laid down in 1907, so I don't think this armored cruiser laid down in 1909 would be too modern. She'd have to contend with the increasing number of Battlecruisers being built. If I could, I'd rather build a improved Blucher with added superimposed turrets than a battlecruiser.

Hmmm, that's an idea for later....

As I've noted before, I chuckle over the "too modern" comments, given the inclusion of Atlantis, the tech level by 1909 should be at least the late 20s...

However, there is still the very serious problem of the CT, and the fact that two of these babies puts the Greeks two over their limit.

So how do we keep these beauties around? Need to make them into ACs. OK, 5% cheat = 13,340 tons. That's 340 tons over, plus you have the guns.

Now perhaps you could have them rebuilt in '21 a la Regina Elena - replace the 10" turrets with twin 8" or 8.2" - and increase the bunkerage to lower the standard displacement? If you can get it down to 13,684 tons, that gets you "under the limit" if you apply the full 5%.

I would say rebuild using triple 8" turrets, but that might be too modern. :-P

Well there is the mentioned replacement of her main battery, 8x8" (8.1 or 8.2) would make the vessel on par with a real life heavy cruiser. Or the vessel could be refitted with 7 inch guns (triples or better if you can get away with it) and then use the clause to retain the vessel (if possible).

The engines could be reduced to make this a coastal defense ship I guess.

Does the treaty allow for tonnage for torpedo bulge refits? A major refit (that is only a facade) could allow for a certain amount of weight added to the ship. Could this be used (on a cruiser) to reduce it's classification by weight to a Class (a) Cruiser if the guns are replaced and the the ships current weight (minus the torpedo bulge limit plus the facade) brings it under 13,000 tons?

This is rather tricky, but this seems to be too good a design to just scrap when they have likley been in commission less than 12 years. Plus they have the speed to compete with some battlecruisers.

Could they be sold to pay for the new battleships Greece in building, so they are not waisted?

Quoted

Could they be sold to pay for the new battleships Greece in building, so they are not wasted?

As long as they were sold prior to 1/1/1921.

(It would seem a little odd to me, tho, that Greece would (a) sell these ships and (b) turn right around and buy BCs from Atlantis...)

Now, who would they be sold to? China? Chile? Mexico?

Depending on what happened with the construction of their two dreadnought in the Great War, Chile might like those two Armored Cruisers. Especially if one was still turned into a carrier by Britain (HMS Eagle) and depending on what Britain did with HMS Canada. They might still like them even if they had two dreadnought to balance things out (depending on what gets made, and what doesn't in South America, and who is threatening the Continent in 1920).

Mexico might have an interest to keep the United States from getting too interested in Mexico again after 1914 (is history remains the same..though I don't know if Mexico could afford them).

China might like them to hold off the Japanese, but even then China is severly outnumbered and surrounded in India and Japan have any interest in taking pieces of it. They also might have to think about all the Europeans still on there borders. Though China has never really been a Naval nation...save way back when, and then they decided to stop. The center of the universe need not go to others, others will come to you...or some such saying back when China was the most advanced nation on Earth.

Blucher was the last armoured cruiser. The French had one or two still completing in 1910 or so but by this stage the Invincibles were on the scene. Given this it seems more likely to arm these 1909 Greek ships with 10" rather than 8" (the US has no 9"). I figure superfiring turrets are plausible IF we have some American influence, otherwise I'd go for a VDT/Indefatigable layout.

Greece has 2 protected cruisers that have 7" guns. They actually qualify as coast defence at 8000tons and 24kts. I think these ships need to be trimmed to 13,000tons and 8" guns IF Iberia's ships are counted as capital ships. As 8" gunned ships they would probably have a pair of turrets in the waist.

Hey I could shift all the stacks forward and have 6 turrets on the centreline, a Fuso-Omaha cross. ; )

Cheers,

Quoted

China might like them to hold off the Japanese, but even then China is severly outnumbered and surrounded in India and Japan have any interest in taking pieces of it.

I don't mind if China would buy them if they were for sale. Hell, I would even pay them for China if necessary. :-)

Quoted

Hey I could shift all the stacks forward and have 6 turrets on the centreline, a Fuso-Omaha cross. ; )

Yes, you could do that, but would it retain the beauty of the original?

OK, to 'fit-in' here is a diet version. The midship turrets are well inboard for torpedo defence but are offcentre so as to command good arcs forward and aft.

Cheers,



Helle-diet, GREEK Cruiser laid down 1909

Displacement:
12,252 t light; 12,888 t standard; 15,379 t normal; 17,311 t full load
Loading submergence 769 tons/feet

Dimensions:
650.00 ft x 74.00 ft x 26.60 ft (normal load)
198.12 m x 22.56 m x 8.11 m

Armament:
12 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (6 Main turrets x 2 guns, 2 superfiring turrets)
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns
Secondary guns mounted low & subject to being washed down in a seaway
8 - 3.00" / 76 mm QF guns
Weight of broadside 3,930 lbs / 1,783 kg
4 - 0.0" / 0 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
Belt 6.50" / 165 mm, end belts 2.00" / 51 mm
Belts cover 80 % of normal area
Main turrets 8.00" / 203 mm, 2nd casemates 2.00" / 51 mm
Armour deck 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 50,155 shp / 37,415 Kw = 26.50 kts
Range 6,000nm at 15.00 kts

Complement:
690 - 897

Cost:
£1.193 million / $4.770 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 491 tons, 3.2 %
Armour: 3,557 tons, 23.1 %
Belts: 1,081 tons, 7.0 %, Armament: 1,346 tons, 8.8 %, Armour Deck: 996 tons, 6.5 %
Conning Tower: 133 tons, 0.9 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 2,508 tons, 16.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,697 tons, 37.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,127 tons, 20.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Metacentric height 3.6

Remarks:
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation & workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1.07
Shellfire needed to sink: 18,418 lbs / 8,354 Kg = 71.9 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 2.5
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 73 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0.44
Relative quality as seaboat: 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0.421
Sharpness coefficient: 0.32
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 7.99
'Natural speed' for length: 25.50 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
Trim: 59
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 78.2 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 120.4 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 123 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0.99
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 131 lbs / square foot or 638 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1.10
(for 16.20 ft / 4.94 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment -0.30 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 1.00

Quoted

Depending on what happened with the construction of their two dreadnought in the Great War, Chile might like those two Armored Cruisers. Especially if one was still turned into a carrier by Britain (HMS Eagle) and depending on what Britain did with HMS Canada.

In WesWorld, Chile ordered their two DNs from Nordmark; both ships were delivered after the end of the war.

There's still an HMS Canada, though - it's the ship that in OTL was Emperor of India.

Alt-Naval - Nice job, she still looks purty. But, I'm concerned that the barbettes for P and Q turrets are in the way of some of those casemated guns.

this is very nice! a bit faster than Navarra, and a very workable legal cruiser, yet very powerful and fast enough for the time. A bit faster than Navarra so could theoretically run away from her, although that is a non-issue because Navarra is a colonial flagship that is not meant to play in the Med.

I like her!

Quoted

But, I'm concerned that the barbettes for P and Q turrets are in the way of some of those casemated guns.

Pretty hard to say without a top view. Perhaps it is juts possible. Could be a tight fit.
All in all an excellent looking work of art.