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1

Monday, October 24th 2005, 8:48pm

Underwater Protection Systems

Another "secret" report.

2

Monday, October 24th 2005, 8:49pm

[size=3]Underwater Protection Systems[/size]


Since its invention in the 1700s, the torpedo has become a useful and extremely powerful weapon. It can greatly increase the offensive firepower of a vessel.

Capital Ships sunk by torpedo/mine in the Great War;

Source code

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HMS Audacious – Mine
HMS Britannia – Torpedo
HMS Cornwallis – Torpedo
HMS Formidable – Torpedo
HMS Goliath – Torpedo
HMS Irresistable – Torpedo
HMS King Edward VII – Mine
HMS Majestic – Torpedo
HMS Ocean – Torpedo
HMS Russell – Mine
HMS Triumph – Torpedo

RM Regia Margherita – Mine

MN Bouvet – Mine
MN Gaulois – Torpedo
MN Suffren – Torpedo
MN Danton – Torpedo

SMS Pommern – Torpedo

Petropavlovsk – Torpedo

Wien – Torpedo
Viribus Unitis – Mine
Szent Istvan - Torpedo


Most of the capital ships sunk were of pre-dreadnought design and did not feature underwater defense systems. However, the loss of 21 capital ships proves that defense against underwater attack is paramount. By comparison, the number of capital ships lost to gunfire is 4. The RMI must work to improve the underwater defense systems(UDS) for future capital ships.

The most important factor in determining the effectiveness of the UDS is the breadth of the system. This, by necessity, indicates that a beamy hull must be used. Keeping with current models, the B2 hullform looks to be used for future vessels. PedS used the B1 hullform, but since then it has been found that the B2 is a better compromise. Whilst Italy is limited to 40,000tons displacement, a beam of c. 32-33m is the maximum possible using the B2 hullform. A system breath of up to 7m is possible.

Currently two systems are being investigated, the Pugliese system, and the Fíume system. The Pugliese system uses a large cylinder to expend the energy of the torpedo warhead. The cylinder crumples under the impact. The system will be hard to repair and still lets water into the hull. The Fíume system works on a number of cuboid boxes, 1 void, 1 liquid carrying fuel oil and 1 void then the splinter bulkhead. In testing, both systems have been able to withstand up to a 500kg charge. Currently, our largest torpedo has a 750kg warhead. It is impossible to further protect against torpedoes on a displacement of 40,000tons. Even in the event of a successfully contained hit, a large quantity of water will still flood the ship. Eventually, with many torpedo hits, the ship will succumb to flooding.

Neither of these two systems do anything to protect the ends of the ship against torpedo hits. The breadth of the system means that it is only possible to mount it in the middle 60% of the vessel. Which means that a torpedo is nearly as likely to hit the underprotected ends and cause massive flooding. The tunnel-system installed on the Aquila-class Portaaerei gives more than adequate protection to the otherwise extremely vulnerable propellors and rudders. The disadvantages of the system are some vibration at high speeds and the ability to only use a 2-shaft propulsion unit. Experiments are ongoing to try and give a similar level of protection to a 4-shaft unit. For battleships, this system is sadly unworkable, as the barbette for the aft turret interferes with the centrally located shafts. Any capital ship will remain extremely vulnerable to torpedo hits in unprotected areas.

I propose that Italy forgo the construction of additional battleships either until we are in a position as to build ships larger than 40,000tons, or to forgo the construction of battleships entirely.

Where will new battleships be used? The Eastern Med. Indian Ocean, Red Sea and the Atlantic. Of these, the possibilty of torpedo attack in the Atlantic and Indian Ocean is small and would probably come from submarines. It is reasonable to expect 1-2 hits as a maximum, which a new battleship should be able to withstand. However, in the main areas of operations, the EM and Red Sea, torpedo attack from both submarine and surface vessels is much more likely. It is likely that, in a prolonged action, multiple strikes will be observed, with each strike bringing the next easier. In addition, the inability to protect propellors and rudders against torpedo strikes would give battleships an extreme vulnerability faced with small torpedo craft. The RMI had great success with MAS in the Great War. It is known that other navies have a similar capability. The situation is that in the most likely theatre of operations, the battleship is at a great disadvantage. For this reason, more than anything else, I propose to forgo capital ship construction. The June conference into fleet rebuilding declared that battleship construction should be given up on economic grounds, further strengthening the argument against battleships.

The RMI still needs to be able to project power. The other conclusions reached in the June Conference were for the construction of new aircraft carriers and ACRs. The aircraft carrier is able to be protected better against torpedoes than the battleship due to the lack of barbettes which interfere with the depth of the system. It is also possible to protect the vulnerable ends, as seen with Aquila.

The ACR is to be the exponent of torpedo warfare for the RMI. A heavy torpedo battery of 600mm torpedoes is being included on all designs. Our current weapon, the M1923 is a wet-heater powered torpedo with a range of 3500m@35knts. This will become insufficient in the future and a weapon with a range of up to 20.000m is to be desired. The positive side is that the M1923 carries an exceptionally large 750kg warhead. Experiments at Fíume indicate that it might be possible to increase the speed of our torpedoes by 2knts with a more hydrodynamic shape. For extra range, the wet-heater system may prove impossible. Links with the RN tell of their new 24.5” torpedo with a range of 20.000yds@30knts. This is made possible from the use of oxygen-enriched air. I suggest that experiments with various oxidizing agents be carried out to obtain similar or better performance.

A recent study calculated that a modern capital ship will take c. 6-7 500mm torpedo hits to sink. If we take the lower figure as at which a capital ship will be rendered combat ineffective we can extrapolate the following: 500mm torpedo has a warhead of about 200kg. M1923 has a warhead of 750kg, so a ship can only take 1/3 of the hits by a M1923. (This is only a approximation, as the amount of water let into a ship does not only depend on warhead size) This means that a capital ship can take 2-3 M1923 hits before being rendered combat ineffective. The accuracy of torpedo hits in the Great War was about 6%. Now with superior ranging, it might be possible to obtain 10% hits. As such, it would be necessary to expend 20-30 torpedoes to sink 1 capital ship. Current destroyers carry 6 each, and cruisers 6 a side. A SAG of 2xCruisers and 3xDestroyers could expend the 30 torpedoes necessary to sink a capital ship. I propose that the RMI should train to become expert with torpedo warfare to maximise this offensive cabability.

[size=3]Conte de Rosso[/size]

3

Monday, October 24th 2005, 9:00pm

Interesting. This sounds like the Japanese position between wars. Lead to the "Long Lance".

One slight alteration for Wesworld:

"HMS Triumph – Torpedo"

This could have been some other ship for Wesworld, as this predreadnought still exists in the Chilean Navy (and not by my doing, that's what was given to me).

4

Monday, October 24th 2005, 9:09pm

I'm aware that there might be some discrepanices between real-life and wesworld, but trying to find them all would be extremely hard.

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Monday, October 24th 2005, 9:16pm

Quoted

This sounds like the Japanese position between wars. Lead to the "Long Lance".

Which is true in Wesworld as well, but it should be obvious that Japan is not going to make any information public via AWNR in regards of R&D, construction, data, etc. of an important (weapon) systems (like the Long Lance; the obvious exception is the Tomoe Tele Raypointer which was thrown in for fun in regards of its mega size).
(edit: not even in a "secret" report)
edit 2: forgot to mention that the article is quite interesting to read.

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Tuesday, October 25th 2005, 2:11am

There is a solution!

Quoted

For battleships, this system is sadly unworkable, as the barbette for the aft turret interferes with the centrally located shafts.


"The answer, my friend..."

:-)

7

Tuesday, October 25th 2005, 2:13am

"There will be an answer..."

"Let it be."

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Tuesday, October 25th 2005, 4:12am

Interesting slant RA. So the RM have found that 13,000 tons ships were prone to loss to underwater damage and the solution is to build new 13,000 ton ships? ; )

Of the list above, only four 'modern' ones were lost. The Italians themselves sank half of these by 'unconventional' means in closed waters (MTB and limpet). So ships are most vulnerable in closed waters and bases. There is a physical limit to the size of warheads, De La Penne didn't have the energy to attach his limpet to the hull of Valiant - just leave it on the bottom under the magazine. If the warhead was bigger he wouldn't have been able to shift it through the mud. A 40,000ton ship would better survive the damage and if the harbor was secure, then wouldn't be damaged at all.

In blue water, 3 13,000 ton ships are going to wish they were 1 39,000ton ship when a real Battleship comes up to play.

Cheers,

9

Tuesday, October 25th 2005, 5:15am

Well this line of thinking goes only for the operations areas the Italian Navy uses: the Mediterrenean Sea the surrounding seas. Most of this area is narrow and confined by most naval standards, and the theat or mine and torpedo attack magnified to some degree. Greece seem to be using this to its own advantage with large numbers of torpedo and mine craft.

The number of heavy armored cruiser and aircraft carriers suggested to replace the battleships that will not be built or those that will be retired may result in an interesting shift in the local area. That is until a larger then 40,000 ton battleship can be constructed to fit the Italian model of a ship that is safe from torpedoes. (of which there is really no such thing, it will just take more to do the job...see the death of the Musashi as an example)

However, three cruisers of this type verse a large treaty battleship? Might actually be interesting, as you don't have to penetrate the armor to cripple a ship. High Explosive rounds can do enough damage in bulk to render a battleship useless, if still afloat.

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Tuesday, October 25th 2005, 8:54am

The Audacious only sank owing to other weaknesses in design like bulkheads failing.
These problems were solved though in the next lot of Dreadnoughts from the RN, Marlbrorough took a torpedo hit in an unprotected area amidships, (70ft x 20 ft hole), and survived thanks mainly to good compartmentation.
Ship layout has much to do with torpedo survivability, but it isn't fool proof.

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Tuesday, October 25th 2005, 1:33pm

Swampy, still a need for 4 shafts if she is going to be fast.

Any torpedo hit will cause localised flooding. As torpedoes grow larger there is more chance of the UDS failing entirely and letting a lot of water into the ship. It just isn't really possible to protect against torpedoes entirely.

Admittedly, most of the pre-dreadnoughts sunk had no UDS and this was a major cause in their loss. Go forward to WWII and then it is possible to see how many BBs were lost to torpedoes again. Again, it is a higher number than from shellfire.

Quoted

However, three cruisers of this type verse a large treaty battleship?


Would Scharnhorst have survived if DoY wasn't there? She was succesfully engaged and eventually sunk by cruisers and destroyers.

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Tuesday, October 25th 2005, 2:04pm

Quoted

Would Scharnhorst have survived if DoY wasn't there? She was succesfully engaged and eventually sunk by cruisers and destroyers.


I wouldn't have thought the Italian Navy would anticipate fighting at night in a snow storm.

Cheers,

HoOmAn

Keeper of the Sacred Block Coefficient

  • Send private message

13

Tuesday, October 25th 2005, 3:03pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
Would Scharnhorst have survived if DoY wasn't there? She was succesfully engaged and eventually sunk by cruisers and destroyers.


Ehrm.... If not for the heavy shell hit into one of SH´s boiler rooms she would have easily escaped all cruisers and destroyers around her. She was already opening range when she received that fateful hit.

14

Tuesday, October 25th 2005, 3:10pm

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
Would Scharnhorst have survived if DoY wasn't there? She was succesfully engaged and eventually sunk by cruisers and destroyers.


Ehrm.... If not for the heavy shell hit into one of SH´s boiler rooms she would have easily escaped all cruisers and destroyers around her. She was already opening range when she received that fateful hit.


That's my understanding as well. The cruisers and destroyers were only able to use their torpedoes after Scharnhorst had been slowed by DoY's 14" guns.

15

Tuesday, October 25th 2005, 3:48pm

It's hindsighting, but my tally is:

France
- Courbet: expended as breakwater
- Bretagne: shelled by British capital ships in harbour

Germany
- Bismarck: damaged by AC, mission-killed by British BB, sunk by scuttling or British light forces' torpedoe
- Tirpitz: bombed in harbour
- Scharnhorst: mission-killed by KGV, sunk by light force torpedos.
- Gneisenau: expended as blockship

UK
- Barham: torpedoed at sea by submarine
- QE: sunk at harbour by frogmen
- Valiant: sunk at harbour by frogmen
- Royal Oak: sunk at harbour by submarine
- Prince of Wales: bombed/torpedoed by A/C
- Repulse: Ditto.
- Hood: Sunk by BB

Japan
- Haruna: sunk by aircraft
- Hiei: sunk by aircraft after crippled by cruisers
- Kirishima: sunk by BB
- Kongo: torpedoed by sub
- Fuso: sunk by BB
- Yamashiro: sunk by BB
- Ise: sunk in harbour by aircraft
- Hyuga: sunk in harbour by aircraft
- Mutsu: did herself in
- Yamato: sunk by many aircraft
- Musashi: sunk by many aircraft

Italy
- Cavour: sunk in harbour by A/C twice (scuttled in between as well)
- Roma: sunk by A/C bomb

USSR
- Marat/Petropavlovsk: dive-bombed by A/C

USA
- Nevada, Oklahoma, Arizona, California, West Virginia - all torpedoed/bombed in harbour

That's thirty-two capital ships...of which I'd lump them in as:

-Sunk at sea by Sub: 2
-Sunk at sea by BB: 6
-Sunk at sea by A/C: 8
-Sunk in harbour: 13
-Scuttled/Accident: 3

I think that the "sunk at sea" data is a mixed-bag of results; what the data says to me is that battleships aren't any safer in port than at sea.

A late observation: whether or not I agree with the results of the secret report I technically haven't seen, I certainly have no problem with Italy deciding that it's the gospel truth and proceeding accordingly. Just don't expect India to agree to any necessary treaty changes.

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Tuesday, October 25th 2005, 6:31pm

Quoted

Ehrm.... If not for the heavy shell hit into one of SH´s boiler rooms she would have easily escaped all cruisers and destroyers around her. She was already opening range when she received that fateful hit.


The destroyers were engaging her at about 4000yds with main armament and torpedoes. Its a bad example because of the awful sea state and perpetual darkness.

J, the purpose is to try to improve UDS whether it be from hits from submarines, mines, frogem or aircraft. Who mentioned treaty changes?

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Tuesday, October 25th 2005, 6:48pm

It's relevant with respect to the definition of a capital ship, as defined by treaty, since the paper's author doesn't seem satsified that the current definition allows for a capital ship with sufficient survivability.

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Tuesday, October 25th 2005, 7:00pm

Conte de Rosso doesn't mention anything about changing maximum displacement allowed until Italy is allowed to do so. He simply says that it not prudent to construct a battleship of 40,000tons and Italy should not build more battleships until this limit is removed. Italy hasn't brought this up during treaty talks, so don't worry.

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Tuesday, October 25th 2005, 8:26pm

Though it might suggest raising the number of hull allowed within the tonnage limits for more ACR types.

20

Wednesday, October 26th 2005, 7:45am

"He simply says that it not prudent to construct a battleship of 40,000tons and Italy should not build more battleships until this limit is removed."

Still seems rather odd to me, I don't recall anyone seriously advocating this position in the Washington treaty were the limit was 5,000 tons lower for BB's.

That being said, Italy can certainly beleive just about anything she wants. Atlantis in sharp contrast would seem to be more of a battleship advocate.