WesWorld

Topic: Submarine Bunkers

Hello to everybody,

I think you all know the huge submarine bunkers in France, which built the German in WW2. My question is, how we can handle them here in wesworld ?

- are they slips or docks ?

- if they have doors, are they automatically docks ? or only if they have pumps in the pens

- taking a look at Lorient Keroman bunkers .... what about the elevator and the "dry pens" ?


Found this in the Q1/1936 Report of Atlantis.:

Quoted

Phase two of the "Blackwater" project begun, construction of 12 submarine pens, 6 each, in two hardened cement bunkers has begun construction. the bunkers are intended to provide a safe haven for Submarines to supply, refuel and conduct repairs that do not require the use of slips or drydocks.

Taking a look at the attached picture ..... i would say the bunker has 4 single pens, 4 double pens and 4 docks or ? But in this docks only repair is possible and not building of a new submarine. But if there is only repair possible, is the invest the same as for a "normal" dock ?


Comments or thoughts are welcome.

Interesting question; it's almost odd to me that the topic has never come up before, but I guess the historical WWII submarine bunkers were the result of a very specific and exacting wartime situation that never applied much in Wesworld...

My personal opinion is that it would entirely depend on what the player intended to do with the facility in question. I'd say that any facility that, according to our refit rules, is only undertaking tasks of the none / tender / port variety would be, essentially, free within the scope of the game rules. In some ways, I don't even care if this sub pen has doors and pumps to drain it dry, so long as it never undertakes any drydock-sorts of repairs. However, if drydock tasks are being undertaken, then it needs to be paid for in IP.

The repair-only dock Parador described actually sounds, more functionally, like what we chose to do with the floating drydocks, which can conduct only repairs and minor rebuilds, and can't build new ships. That being the case, I'd just recommend costing that part out like one of the floating drydocks (even though it isn't floating) and following the rules associated with that.

The awkward bit is that, doing things this way, you're essentially building something that should be allowed to move according to the game rules, and yet what is actually stated to be built is a static facility.

It's something of an irritant to me that some of the most common methods of building smaller ships - the marine railroad and the shiplift - aren't actually represented within the game; it's just slips and docks. A marine railway looks like a standard slip, but it can do the job of a drydock. A shiplift works much the same way. It's probably not worth changing the rules at this point in order to work these sorts of facilities into the rules, but...

I agree with your assessment as to the cost and limits of submarine pens. Personally, I look on them as unnecessary, but if someone wants to spend IP on them I won't stop them. I also agree that changing our rules now to expand the classes of infrastructure at this point in the game would be an unnecessary complication. To have a playable game as opposed to an econometric model we have to simplify things.

Atlantis already has sub pens similar to the historical German sub pens and I built them as drydocks given the fact that we can use drydocks to build ships. Unfortunately they have been in a state of constant building since completion and I haven't had much chance to use them for refits. I'll also have to extend them if I want to refit future designs as they get larger.

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

Interesting question; it's almost odd to me that the topic has never come up before, but I guess the historical WWII submarine bunkers were the result of a very specific and exacting wartime situation that never applied much in Wesworld...

Sure .... but when I look at the last war with the Philippines and Chosen, I wish China would have had such a bunker that's the reason i came up with this topic.

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

My personal opinion is that it would entirely depend on what the player intended to do with the facility in question. I'd say that any facility that, according to our refit rules, is only undertaking tasks of the none / tender / port variety would be, essentially, free within the scope of the game rules. In some ways, I don't even care if this sub pen has doors and pumps to drain it dry, so long as it never undertakes any drydock-sorts of repairs. However, if drydock tasks are being undertaken, then it needs to be paid for in IP.

The repair-only dock Parador described actually sounds, more functionally, like what we chose to do with the floating drydocks, which can conduct only repairs and minor rebuilds, and can't build new ships. That being the case, I'd just recommend costing that part out like one of the floating drydocks (even though it isn't floating) and following the rules associated with that.

The main purpose of these facilities was to resupply and repair damaged submarines. Modification tasks were only small. At most at the end of the war subs get snorkels or some other small modifications in these bunkers. These tasks are all captured in our "damage" or "modification" rules.

Looking which parts of our rules are affected in this special case:
Take a look on our modification rules. Which modifications are rational for a submarine.
- Alterations to snorkel or periscopes:
- Alterations to guns of 65mm and smaller served by hoists:
- Minor changes to superstructure:
- Alterations to guns of 66mm-195mm not involving barbette alterations:
- Refurbishment of internal fittings for life-extension purposes:

All these modifications didn't need a dry dock.

Take a look on our war damage rules. If a ship has moderate or heavy damage, a dry dock is needed for repairing. Do we have combat rules ? Not really ... so it's up to the player how his sub is damaged in a war scenario. But we should play realistic.

So for me no change of our rule is necessary, because all is covered at present in our rules.

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

It's something of an irritant to me that some of the most common methods of building smaller ships - the marine railroad and the shiplift - aren't actually represented within the game; it's just slips and docks. A marine railway looks like a standard slip, but it can do the job of a drydock. A shiplift works much the same way. It's probably not worth changing the rules at this point in order to work these sorts of facilities into the rules, but...

So how we handle the Keroman Bunkers in Lorient ? Here we still have the shiplift

Quoted from "BruceDuncan"

I agree with your assessment as to the cost and limits of submarine pens. Personally, I look on them as unnecessary, but if someone wants to spend IP on them I won't stop them. I also agree that changing our rules now to expand the classes of infrastructure at this point in the game would be an unnecessary complication. To have a playable game as opposed to an econometric model we have to simplify things.

As explained above, i don't see a change of our rules as necessary. The reason why i open this discussion is, that i want to avoid a "fight" in on of my news posts if i present such a bunker - even with wet and dry pens. IF i play according ot our rules, there could also be dry pens BUT they mustn't be usesd as a dry dock !!!! I have no problem with that.

Quoted from "thesmilingassassin"

Atlantis already has sub pens similar to the historical German sub pens and I built them as drydocks given the fact that we can use drydocks to build ships. Unfortunately they have been in a state of constant building since completion and I haven't had much chance to use them for refits. I'll also have to extend them if I want to refit future designs as they get larger.

I didn't found a link to this fact may be you can present it for me.

In the post i found, you didn't built them as a drydock but you have mentioned that they will be not used as drydocks so it's okay.

Quoted from "parador"

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

Interesting question; it's almost odd to me that the topic has never come up before, but I guess the historical WWII submarine bunkers were the result of a very specific and exacting wartime situation that never applied much in Wesworld...

Sure .... but when I look at the last war with the Philippines and Chosen, I wish China would have had such a bunker ;) that's the reason i came up with this topic.

Bunkers probably weren't really applicable even then, since China never really got bombed by the Filipinos. It would really have only been useful in northern China during the stage of the war with Japan, since the Japanese had a stronger control of the air and could reliably bomb Chinese facilities. That's the point when bunkers start to become useful, and worth the hassle and expense.

I've thought about putting some armoured or buried bunkers in Indochina for submarines and MTBs, but I rate the need as pretty low, since the Armee de l'Aire and the Indochinese Air Defense Forces would probably achieve air supremacy against most enemies in the space of a few weeks.

Quoted from "parador"

The reason why i open this discussion is, that i want to avoid a "fight" in on of my news posts if i present such a bunker - even with wet and dry pens. IF i play according ot our rules, there could also be dry pens BUT they mustn't be usesd as a dry dock !!!! I have no problem with that.

Yes - like I said, that'd be the defining issue for me.

Quoted from "parador"

I didn't found a link to this fact may be you can present it for me.

In the post i found, you didn't built them as a drydock but you have mentioned that they will be not used as drydocks so it's okay.

Its way back, I'm unsure where it is so I'll have to look for it but suffice it to say I did build a submarine facility at Palinerus built around one type 2 and four type 0 drydocks used for ship building and when they are not building subs they can be used as they are simmed, as drydocks. They would resemble the Valentine pens at Bremen but in sim terms they are separate drydocks and allow me to build 6 subs at a time (abiding by our usual building rules per size of ship). Additional pens strictly used for shelter and minor refits were also built but in storyline form, as in sim terms any port is thought to have docks capable of performing minor refits, these pens would resemble the Bruno pens at Bergen.

In short we don't spend IP on docks or piers but we do on drydocks and slips so in the current sim terms sub pens shouldn't cost us anything. For comparison the actual Valentine bunker at Bremen cost 120,000,000 Reichsmarks to build, 27,000 tons of steel and covered an area of 49,000 m2.

I'm happy with the proposed solution here.
I built a series of small MTB pens around the Empire years ago, never paid a penny for them in IP and as such they are covered anchorages rather than anywhere to make serious repairs or carry out refits (not that refitting an MTB makes that much sense).