WesWorld

Well, I think it's time to give more details about the nature of the Dutch fleet for the time being.

Since the construction of the first Dreadnought and their faster cousins, the battlecruisers in 1905, the Dutch navy realized that a fleet with a handful of old and outclassed coastal defence battleships as the most powerful asset would stand next to none chances to protect the dutch colonies in the Far East even against ships of an inferior class: the decision was taken to build a fleet of six powerful,long ranged, well-protected battlecruisers and battleships for 1920, even if it meant to delay the construction of lighter units such as destroyers, light cruisers, or armored cruisers.

Given the needs of the navy for a fast ship able to travel long distances in small times, the need for a long range at a high cruise speed was overriding. Also, given that the Far East colonies are very far from the metropoli meant the ships should be very tough and have staying power to avoid critical hits that would let them unable to comply with their mission.

All those facts were mixed with the fact that Netherlands was not ready to build very big ships able to pack both speed, range, protection, and weapons. So the ships wouldn't be too big. Given the priorities of the ships the offensive power was considered a secondary priority, and as such, the 4 first battlecruisers were designed with 11'' guns, and the 2 latter were to be armed with 12'' guns.

Accepting the fact that the ships would carry light guns compared with almost any enemy capital ship, it was decided to study the ways to improve the penetration capabilities of the weapons to be installed aboard the new ships. It was decided that using a heavier shell than usual for a given caliber, with moderately high muzzle speed, would at least help improvig the usefullness of the light caliber guns. Also, profound studies were carried on projectile aerodynamics, ballistic performances, and projectile shapes to better increase the energy keeping of the shells at long ranges. The guns produced after this studies were very powerful for their caliber...however ,at 11'' of caliber, they still were too small.


(to not over-clutter the message I'll post only the most relevant characteristics of each class)


--------------------------------------------------------------
Ijselijk, Dutch Battlecruiser laid down 1909

Displacement:
21.050 t light; 22.124 t standard; 24.031 t normal; 25.461 t full load
Loading submergence 1.065 tons/feet

Dimensions:
655,00 ft x 82,00 ft x 27,00 ft (normal load)
199,64 m x 24,99 m x 8,23 m

Armament:
8 - 11,02" / 280 mm guns (4 Main turrets x 2 guns)
14 - 6,10" / 155 mm guns
Secondary guns mounted low & subject to being washed down in a seaway
8 - 3,46" / 88 mm QF guns
5 - 1,57" / 40 mm guns
Weight of broadside 7.125 lbs / 3.232 kg
2 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
Belt 11,81" / 300 mm, upper belt 7,87" / 200 mm, end belts 3,94" / 100 mm
Belts cover 100 % of normal area
Main turrets 11,81" / 300 mm, 2nd casemates 1,97" / 50 mm
QF gun shields 0,47" / 12 mm, Light gun shields 0,04" / 1 mm
Armour deck 3,15" / 80 mm, Conning tower 9,84" / 250 mm
Torpedo bulkhead 1,97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 65.115 shp / 48.576 Kw = 26,00 kts
Range 8.500nm at 10,00 kts

Complement:
965 - 1.254

Cost:
£1,941 million / $7,763 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 891 tons, 3,7 %
Armour: 8.920 tons, 37,1 %
Belts: 3.783 tons, 15,7 %, Armament: 1.950 tons, 8,1 %, Armour Deck: 2.173 tons, 9,0 %
Conning Tower: 177 tons, 0,7 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 837 tons, 3,5 %
Machinery: 3.256 tons, 13,5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7.983 tons, 33,2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.981 tons, 12,4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Metacentric height 4,4

Remarks:
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation & workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1,09
Shellfire needed to sink: 23.531 lbs / 10.674 Kg = 35,1 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 3,2
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 71 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0,57
Relative quality as seaboat: 1,23

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0,580
Sharpness coefficient: 0,38
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 6,94
'Natural speed' for length: 25,59 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim: 58
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 98,2 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 139,8 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 107 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0,99
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 145 lbs / square foot or 708 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1,10
(for 19,00 ft / 5,79 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment 0,95 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 1,00


------------------------------------------------------

The first capital ships of the dutch navy.

2 of them. Ijselijk and Buitengewoon (tr. Terrible&Formidable)

Both completed for 1911.

A turret forward, X wing turret to starboard-forward, Y wing turret to port-backwards, B turret backwards.

obsolete by 1922 standards, still undecided wether if they will be reconstructed as carriers, retired from active service, or rebuilt with new turbines, updated guns and maybe deleted wing turrets.

given their short range they weren't sent to the far east, and so they didn't see action during the Dutch-India war in 1916.

Main guns were 28cm/52 Mark IIIA.
--------------------------------------------------------



Zeven Provinciën, Dutch Battlecruiser laid down 1915

Displacement:
25.408 t light; 26.590 t standard; 29.398 t normal; 31.527 t full load
Loading submergence 1.219 tons/feet

Dimensions:
688,98 ft x 90,22 ft x 29,04 ft (normal load)
210,00 m x 27,50 m x 8,85 m

Armament:
8 - 11,02" / 280 mm guns (4 Main turrets x 2 guns, 1 superfiring turret)
14 - 6,10" / 155 mm guns
Secondary guns mounted low & subject to being washed down in a seaway
8 - 3,46" / 88 mm AA guns
5 - 1,57" / 40 mm guns
Weight of broadside 7.125 lbs / 3.232 kg
2 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
Belt 14,96" / 380 mm, upper belt 8,86" / 225 mm, ends unarmoured
Belts cover 93 % of normal area
Main turrets 14,96" / 380 mm, 2nd casemates 5,91" / 150 mm
AA gun shields 0,47" / 12 mm, Light gun shields 0,04" / 1 mm
Armour deck 3,15" / 80 mm, Conning tower 4,72" / 120 mm
Torpedo bulkhead 1,97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 111.451 shp / 83.143 Kw = 29,00 kts
Range 20.500nm at 10,00 kts

Complement:
1.122 - 1.459

Cost:
£3,241 million / $12,966 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 891 tons, 3,0 %
Armour: 10.585 tons, 36,0 %
Belts: 4.244 tons, 14,4 %, Armament: 2.811 tons, 9,6 %, Armour Deck: 2.485 tons, 8,5 %
Conning Tower: 97 tons, 0,3 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 947 tons, 3,2 %
Machinery: 4.222 tons, 14,4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9.660 tons, 32,9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.990 tons, 13,6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0,2 %

Metacentric height 5,0

Remarks:
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation & workspaces is excellent

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1,08
Shellfire needed to sink: 29.768 lbs / 13.503 Kg = 44,4 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 4,2
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 60 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0,38
Relative quality as seaboat: 1,01

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0,570
Sharpness coefficient: 0,39
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 6,83
'Natural speed' for length: 26,25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim: 60
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 92,4 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 139,7 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 112 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 1,00
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs / square foot or 762 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1,10
(for 19,30 ft / 5,88 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment 0,51 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 1,01


-------------------------------------------------------------------
a step forward in the dutch fixation for durability, range and speed at the cost of small guns. Launched in a year when 15 inch guns were already carried to sea, the Zeven Provinziën class still carried 280mm guns, yet of the powerful Mark IIIF class.

-four turrets on the mid line. Turret A and B forward, B superfiring. Turret X amidships, turret C backwards.

-exponents of the dutch naval policy at this stage, they carry heavy armor, high speed, long range, but small guns

-the 280mm guns were 28cm/54 Mark IIIF with higher muzzle velocity,heavier shells and improved ballistics than the previous Mark IIIA.

-2 ships in the class. Zeven Provinziën and De Hollandia

-While this class was planned to be laid down in 1913, finaltial constraits delayed them until 1915, and the planned "De Ruyters" were also delayed from 1917 to 1919.

-De Hollandia is the Dutch navy flagship. Launched in 1916, completed 1918, it has expanded commanding facilities. When the De Ruyter battleship enters service it will be the new dutch flagship.
---------------------------------------------------------------




De Ruyter, Dutch Battleship laid down 1919

Displacement:
30.397 t light; 32.239 t standard; 35.959 t normal; 38.791 t full load
Loading submergence 1.375 tons/feet

Dimensions:
721,78 ft x 95,14 ft x 31,17 ft (normal load)
220,00 m x 29,00 m x 9,50 m

Armament:
9 - 13,58" / 345 mm guns (3 Main turrets x 3 guns, 1 superfiring turret)
16 - 6,10" / 155 mm guns (8 2nd turrets x 2 guns)
12 - 3,94" / 100 mm AA guns
8 - 1,57" / 40 mm guns
Weight of broadside 13.476 lbs / 6.113 kg

Armour:
Belt 14,96" / 380 mm, 80mm decapping plate+300mm inner belt angled 12º. ends unarmoured
Belts cover 88 % of normal area
Main turrets 15,35" / 390 mm, 2nd turrets 1,97" / 50 mm
AA gun shields 0,47" / 12 mm, Light gun shields 0,04" / 1 mm
Armour deck 4,92" / 125 mm, Conning tower 4,72" / 120 mm
Torpedo bulkhead 2,36" / 60 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 101.304 shp / 75.573 Kw = 27,50 kts
Range 11.500nm at 15,00 kts

Complement:
1.305 - 1.697

Cost:
£6,507 million / $26,029 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.685 tons, 4,7 %
Armour: 12.345 tons, 34,3 %
Belts: 3.055 tons, 8,5 %, Armament: 3.520 tons, 9,8 %, Armour Deck: 4.380 tons, 12,2 %
Conning Tower: 111 tons, 0,3 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 1.278 tons, 3,6 %
Machinery: 3.597 tons, 10,0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12.770 tons, 35,5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.562 tons, 15,5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Metacentric height 5,9

Remarks:
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation & workspaces is excellent

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1,14
Shellfire needed to sink: 38.222 lbs / 17.337 Kg = 30,5 x 13,6 " / 345 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 5,4
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 50 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0,52
Relative quality as seaboat: 1,09

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0,588
Sharpness coefficient: 0,39
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 6,69
'Natural speed' for length: 26,87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim: 46
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 87,7 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 138,2 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 109 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0,98
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 184 lbs / square foot or 900 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1,15
(for 19,69 ft / 6,00 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment 0,12 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 1,00





------------------------------------------------------------

-the initial design called for 29 knots and 12'' guns. However when the design was delayed 2 years a thorough redesign was done on the ship after fierce discussions between the defenders of the "bigger guns" theory who called for less protection and speed and bigger 345mm guns, and the "staying power over weapons" apologists who insisted on staying with 305mm guns.

-Finally the design was remodelled with bigger guns. After the investigation and development on armor schemes running side-to-side with the artillery development for naval guns, the use of a decapping plate was decided.
The main belt is internal, it's thickness being 295mm, with an external 45mm decapping plate placed to improve the overall resistance of the armored belt.

-after the redesign had happened the new class was officially reclassed as "Battleship"

-Triple turrets were used for the first time in the dutch navy.

-Guns are in the midline. A and B turrets forward, B superfiring. C backwards.

-Speed was reduced from the planned 29 knots down to 27.5 knots. Range was reduced from a planned 15500 miles@15knots to 13700 miles@15 knots to allow for the heavier guns to be placed with less armor or speed sacrifize.

-2 ships in the class: De Ruyter (future dutch flagship) and Tromp. Both launched in early 1919. Both planned to be completed in Q4 1922.

-main weapons are of the 34.5cm/54 Mark VC class. With heavier shells than usual, relatively high muzzle speed and very good ballistic performances their design was completed in 1918.

-----------------------------------------------------------------



later I'll go on with the cruiser fleet, for now I've written enough

Interesting...

The Ijselijks seem like a practical design for their time. The Zeven Provincien class are perhaps over-armored, but that's your philosophy, so that's fine

I find the transition to the De Ruyters a little jarring, though I have no issues with the type itself (it's actually eerily similar to one of my possible Indian types). It's just that these three classes don't seem able to work together without some kind of serious compromise.

I'm curious to see where you deploy them and why; between Europe, Africa, and the Netherlands East Indies, you've got three fairly different areas to defend.

Keep the good work coming.

The De Ruyters are not such a break from tradition as it may seem. They were launched in 1919, at a time when 15'' guns were mostly standard, 16'' guns were coming soon and serious thought was being given to 18'' guns aboard battleships.

by 1917 it was natural that some serious discussion was held about the usefullness of a new class of two 30000 ton ships armed just with 12'' guns.

The policy of "heavy protection, long range, high speed but small weapons" is still present (and is quite visible) in the De Ruyters. 345mm guns in a time when 381mm were the standard and the 406mm was envisioned as the future normal weapon for a capital ship, a gun of 13.58'' is still quite light.

heavy protection was not given up, it just changed shape from the use of pure thickness of steel to a lesser ammount of better placed and deployed armor to get similar results.

Long range it's still attained and at full scale. 13700 miles@15 knots is quite good for a ship this size. If the ship cruises at 10 knots it's able to run for almost 33000 miles non-stop.

Speed is still high for a ship classed at BB. 27.5 knots it's not bad, and the focus of the dutch navy is to high cruise speed rather than pure high tactical speed.

While it may seem a drastic depart from the usual "speed-range-protection over weapons" practice of the 4 previous ships, the De Ruyter it's not such a drastic change. It's the same story but reached from a different, more efficient approach. But the policy is bassically the same


deployements are still not decided, but I can tell you the Ijselijks will be placed in Netherlands, and that the Zeven Provinciëns in Indonesia. The De Ruyters, I'm still not sure. After all they're still not in service .

Quoted

Long range it's still attained and at full scale. 13700 miles@15 knots is quite good for a ship this size.

If you increase the ranges of the ships by a few thousand nautical miles, you'll end up with Dutch boilers.
:-)

If you want, I can help you with Dutch names should you run out of ideas...
As long as you don't call one of your ships the J.P. Balkenende, I'm happy.
^_^

Walter

Predreadnoughts&Coastal Defence Ships:


------------------------------------------------------------
Utrecht, Dutch PreDreadnought laid down 1899

Displacement:
14.014 t light; 14.811 t standard; 15.740 t normal; 16.420 t full load
Loading submergence 710 tons/feet

Dimensions:
426,51 ft x 82,02 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
130,00 m x 25,00 m x 8,00 m

Armament:
4 - 12,60" / 320 mm guns (2 Main turrets x 2 guns)
14 - 6,10" / 155 mm guns
Secondary guns mounted low & subject to being washed down in a seaway
14 - 2,95" / 75 mm QF guns
10 - 1,57" / 40 mm guns
Weight of broadside 5.790 lbs / 2.626 kg
4 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
Belt 12,01" / 305 mm, upper belt 9,84" / 250 mm, end belts 5,91" / 150 mm
Belts cover 107 % of normal area
Main turrets 12,01" / 305 mm, 2nd casemates 3,94" / 100 mm
QF gun shields 0,98" / 25 mm, Light gun shields 0,47" / 12 mm
Armour deck 1,57" / 40 mm, Conning tower 9,84" / 250 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 19.883 ihp / 14.833 Kw = 19,50 kts
Range 5.000nm at 10,00 kts

Complement:
702 - 913

Cost:
£1,540 million / $6,161 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 724 tons, 4,6 %
Armour: 5.160 tons, 32,8 %
Belts: 3.151 tons, 20,0 %, Armament: 1.151 tons, 7,3 %, Armour Deck: 724 tons, 4,6 %
Conning Tower: 133 tons, 0,8 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 3.156 tons, 20,1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4.875 tons, 31,0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.726 tons, 11,0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,6 %

Metacentric height 4,8

Remarks:
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation & workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1,14
Shellfire needed to sink: 12.542 lbs / 5.689 Kg = 12,5 x 12,6 " / 320 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 1,7
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 70 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0,39
Relative quality as seaboat: 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0,600
Sharpness coefficient: 0,45
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 5,21
'Natural speed' for length: 20,65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim: 58
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 105,7 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 99,5 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 91 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0,94
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 141 lbs / square foot or 688 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1,85
(for 14,76 ft / 4,50 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment -1,82 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 1,01

--------------------------------------------------------------


-First dutch "modern" predreadnoughts.

-2 in the class. Utrecht and Oceaan

-Both ships in the class refitted in 1913-14.

-due their short range, always based at Netherlands.

-to be scrapped after the introduction of the De Ruyter Battleships.


----------------------------------------------------------------

Ijseelmeer, Dutch PreDreadnought laid down 1903

Displacement:
17.059 t light; 18.165 t standard; 19.451 t normal; 20.402 t full load
Loading submergence 826 tons/feet

Dimensions:
442,91 ft x 91,86 ft x 27,89 ft (normal load)
135,00 m x 28,00 m x 8,50 m

Armament:
4 - 12,60" / 320 mm guns (2 Main turrets x 2 guns)
10 - 9,45" / 240 mm guns
12 - 3,94" / 100 mm QF guns
QF guns mounted low & subject to being washed down in a seaway
10 - 1,57" / 40 mm guns
Weight of broadside 8.603 lbs / 3.902 kg
4 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
Belt 12,01" / 305 mm, upper belt 9,84" / 250 mm, end belts 5,91" / 150 mm
Belts cover 98 % of normal area
Main turrets 12,01" / 305 mm, 2nd turrets 11,02" / 280 mm
QF casemates 0,98" / 25 mm, Light gun shields 0,47" / 12 mm
Armour deck 0,79" / 20 mm, Conning tower 9,84" / 250 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 20.395 ihp / 15.215 Kw = 19,00 kts
Range 6.500nm at 10,00 kts

Complement:
823 - 1.070

Cost:
£1,927 million / $7,706 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1.075 tons, 5,5 %
Armour: 6.537 tons, 33,6 %
Belts: 3.151 tons, 16,2 %, Armament: 2.811 tons, 14,5 %, Armour Deck: 421 tons, 2,2 %
Conning Tower: 154 tons, 0,8 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 3.044 tons, 15,6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6.403 tons, 32,9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.392 tons, 12,3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Metacentric height 5,2

Remarks:
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation & workspaces is adequate

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1,09
Shellfire needed to sink: 16.981 lbs / 7.702 Kg = 17,0 x 12,6 " / 320 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 2,2
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 61 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0,38
Relative quality as seaboat: 1,15

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0,600
Sharpness coefficient: 0,46
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 5,04
'Natural speed' for length: 21,05 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim: 53
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 97,1 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 98,7 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 92 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0,94
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 164 lbs / square foot or 801 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1,80
(for 14,76 ft / 4,50 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment -2,53 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 1,00

---------------------------------------------------------------------


-two in the class: Ijseemeer and Molucca.

-240mm secondary guns purchased from Iberia

-secondary battery deployed in six turrets: four double, two simple.

-refitted 1915-16. Both ships were on dry dock while India-Dutch war was being fought.

-Molucca based at Indonesia, Ijseemeer at Netherlands.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hertog Hendrik, Dutch Coastal defence ship laid down 1900

Displacement:
4.631 t light; 4.848 t standard; 5.168 t normal; 5.403 t full load
Loading submergence 320 tons/feet

Dimensions:
318,24 ft x 52,49 ft x 19,69 ft (normal load)
97,00 m x 16,00 m x 6,00 m

Armament:
2 - 9,45" / 240 mm guns (2 Main turrets x 1 guns)
4 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns
Secondary guns mounted low & subject to being washed down in a seaway
8 - 2,95" / 75 mm QF guns
4 - 1,46" / 37 mm guns
Weight of broadside 1.365 lbs / 619 kg

Armour:
Belt 5,98" / 152 mm, upper belt 4,13" / 105 mm, end belts 3,94" / 100 mm
Belts cover 123 % of normal area
Main turrets 9,65" / 245 mm, 2nd casemates 0,47" / 12 mm
QF gun shields 0,47" / 12 mm
Armour deck 2,01" / 51 mm, Conning tower 9,69" / 246 mm
Torpedo bulkhead 2,56" / 65 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4.947 ihp / 3.690 Kw = 16,00 kts
Range 4.100nm at 9,25 kts

Complement:
304 - 396

Cost:
£0,414 million / $1,654 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 171 tons, 3,3 %
Armour: 2.247 tons, 43,5 %
Belts: 1.117 tons, 21,6 %, Armament: 267 tons, 5,2 %, Armour Deck: 416 tons, 8,0 %
Conning Tower: 62 tons, 1,2 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 386 tons, 7,5 %
Machinery: 773 tons, 15,0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1.390 tons, 26,9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 537 tons, 10,4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1,0 %

Metacentric height 2,3

Remarks:
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation & workspaces is cramped

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1,11
Shellfire needed to sink: 2.733 lbs / 1.239 Kg = 6,5 x 9,4 " / 240 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 0,9
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 60 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0,28
Relative quality as seaboat: 1,05

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0,550
Sharpness coefficient: 0,41
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 5,63
'Natural speed' for length: 17,84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim: 57
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 122,3 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 57,5 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 99 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0,96
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 86 lbs / square foot or 419 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1,34
(for 8,20 ft / 2,50 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment -5,07 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 1,00

------------------------------------------------------------


-first ships built especifically to protect dutch colonies in the far east. Cruiser sized, heavily armed and armored for it's tonnage.

-three on the class: De Ruyter , Hertog Hendrik and Koningin Regentes.

-Koningin Regentes was sunk fighting vs the indian fleet, 1916

-never refitted, the two surviving ships are old, obsolete assets

----------------------------------------------------------------




Groningen, Dutch Coastal defence ship laid down 1914

Displacement:
7.622 t light; 8.170 t standard; 9.453 t normal; 10.442 t full load
Loading submergence 572 tons/feet

Dimensions:
459,32 ft x 62,34 ft x 19,69 ft (normal load)
140,00 m x 19,00 m x 6,00 m

Armament:
4 - 12,60" / 320 mm guns (2 Main turrets x 2 guns)
8 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns
4 - 2,95" / 75 mm AA guns
4 - 0,98" / 25 mm guns
Weight of broadside 4.297 lbs / 1.949 kg
4 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
Belt 8,66" / 220 mm, upper belt 5,91" / 150 mm, ends unarmoured
Belts cover 74 % of normal area
Main turrets 11,02" / 280 mm, 2nd gun shields 0,39" / 10 mm
Armour deck 0,98" / 25 mm, Conning tower 3,94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 21.820 shp / 16.278 Kw = 22,00 kts
Range 18.000nm at 10,00 kts

Complement:
479 - 623

Cost:
£1,064 million / $4,254 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 537 tons, 5,7 %
Armour: 2.505 tons, 26,5 %
Belts: 1.211 tons, 12,8 %, Armament: 891 tons, 9,4 %, Armour Deck: 365 tons, 3,9 %
Conning Tower: 38 tons, 0,4 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 841 tons, 8,9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3.740 tons, 39,6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.830 tons, 19,4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Metacentric height 3,0

Remarks:
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation & workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1,12
Shellfire needed to sink: 12.899 lbs / 5.851 Kg = 12,9 x 12,6 " / 320 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 2,1
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 60 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0,76
Relative quality as seaboat: 1,23

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0,587
Sharpness coefficient: 0,40
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 6,64
'Natural speed' for length: 21,43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim: 49
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 73,2 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 106,3 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 111 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0,95
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 127 lbs / square foot or 622 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1,55
(for 14,76 ft / 4,50 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment -0,21 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 1,00

----------------------------------------------------------------


-Originally intended to be a 3-strong class to replace the whole Hertok Hendrig class. Material, and finantial problems prevented this to happen and only one was launched: Groningen.

-Very long ranged, much better armed than the Hertog Hendriks.

-320mm main guns are of the 32cm/52 Mark VIIA class.

-Groningen is currently based at Indonesia




Next round, light cruisers and destroyers

Dutch cruisers:


Amsterdam, Dutch Light Cruiser laid down 1903

Displacement:
3.738 t light; 3.834 t standard; 4.104 t normal; 4.304 t full load
Loading submergence 264 tons/feet

Dimensions:
344,49 ft x 41,83 ft x 19,36 ft (normal load)
105,00 m x 12,75 m x 5,90 m

Armament:
3 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns
4 - 2,95" / 75 mm QF guns
2 - 1,57" / 40 mm guns
Weight of broadside 161 lbs / 73 kg
5 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
Belt 1,50" / 38 mm, ends unarmoured
Belts cover 200 % of normal area
Main gun shields 1,50" / 38 mm,
Armour deck 0,25" / 6 mm, Conning tower 1,00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 17.344 ihp / 12.938 Kw = 23,25 kts
Range 3.500nm at 10,00 kts

Complement:
256 - 333

Cost:
£0,490 million / $1,962 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 20 tons, 0,5 %
Armour: 272 tons, 6,6 %
Belts: 218 tons, 5,3 %, Armament: 5 tons, 0,1 %, Armour Deck: 43 tons, 1,0 %
Conning Tower: 6 tons, 0,1 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 2.448 tons, 59,6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 999 tons, 24,3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 366 tons, 8,9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Metacentric height 2,6

Remarks:
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation & workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1,45
Shellfire needed to sink: 1.095 lbs / 497 Kg = 31,0 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 0,4
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 71 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0,04
Relative quality as seaboat: 1,02

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0,515
Sharpness coefficient: 0,36
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 6,58
'Natural speed' for length: 18,56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim: 70
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 196,2 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 62,3 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 73 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0,98
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 63 lbs / square foot or 307 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1,57
(for 10,99 ft / 3,35 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment -1,68 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 1,02

-------------------------------------------------------------------



-4 ships in the class (Amsterdam, Hoorn, Den Helder, Vlissingen)

-All of them refitted between 1917-1919



-------------------------------------------------------------------


Palembang, Dutch Light Cruiser laid down 1905

Displacement:
3.857 t light; 3.964 t standard; 4.259 t normal; 4.478 t full load
Loading submergence 278 tons/feet

Dimensions:
360,89 ft x 41,67 ft x 19,03 ft (normal load)
110,00 m x 12,70 m x 5,80 m

Armament:
5 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns
6 - 2,95" / 75 mm QF guns
4 - 1,57" / 40 mm guns
Weight of broadside 262 lbs / 119 kg
6 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
Belt 1,50" / 38 mm, ends unarmoured
Belts cover 185 % of normal area
Main gun shields 1,50" / 38 mm,
Armour deck 0,25" / 6 mm, Conning tower 1,00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 32.033 shp / 23.897 Kw = 27,00 kts
Range 4.300nm at 10,00 kts

Complement:
263 - 342

Cost:
£0,491 million / $1,963 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 33 tons, 0,8 %
Armour: 271 tons, 6,4 %
Belts: 210 tons, 4,9 %, Armament: 10 tons, 0,2 %, Armour Deck: 45 tons, 1,1 %
Conning Tower: 6 tons, 0,1 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 2.344 tons, 55,0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1.210 tons, 28,4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 402 tons, 9,4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Metacentric height 2,5

Remarks:
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation & workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1,43
Shellfire needed to sink: 1.545 lbs / 701 Kg = 43,7 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 0,4
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 71 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0,09
Relative quality as seaboat: 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0,521
Sharpness coefficient: 0,35
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 6,81
'Natural speed' for length: 19,00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim: 59
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 183,5 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 90,6 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 79 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0,91
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 66 lbs / square foot or 324 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 2,21
(for 16,14 ft / 4,92 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment 3,37 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 1,00


------------------------------------------------------------------


-Four ships in the class (Palembang, Medan, Batavia, Jakarta).

-First dutch ships bigger than destroyers with oil-burning only machinery and turbines.

-Medan and Batavia saw action, but never engaged in combat, during the dutch-india war in 1916.

-All of them refitted between 1920-1921


---------------------------------------------------------------------


Java, Dutch Light Cruiser laid down 1913

Displacement:
5.254 t light; 5.432 t standard; 6.284 t normal; 6.940 t full load
Loading submergence 391 tons/feet

Dimensions:
426,51 ft x 50,03 ft x 20,01 ft (normal load)
130,00 m x 15,25 m x 6,10 m

Armament:
7 - 5,12" / 130 mm guns
4 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns
2 - 2,95" / 75 mm QF guns
6 - 1,57" / 40 mm guns
Weight of broadside 629 lbs / 285 kg
7 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
Belt 3,00" / 76 mm, end belts 1,25" / 32 mm
Belts cover 150 % of normal area
Main gun shields 3,00" / 76 mm, 2nd gun shields 1,00" / 25 mm
QF gun shields 1,00" / 25 mm
Armour deck 1,00" / 25 mm, Conning tower 1,00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 58.328 shp / 43.512 Kw = 30,00 kts
Range 15.000nm at 10,00 kts

Complement:
352 - 458

Cost:
£0,622 million / $2,487 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 79 tons, 1,3 %
Armour: 841 tons, 13,4 %
Belts: 529 tons, 8,4 %, Armament: 51 tons, 0,8 %, Armour Deck: 253 tons, 4,0 %
Conning Tower: 7 tons, 0,1 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 2.286 tons, 36,4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.049 tons, 32,6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.030 tons, 16,4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Metacentric height 2,6

Remarks:
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation & workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1,25
Shellfire needed to sink: 4.810 lbs / 2.182 Kg = 71,8 x 5,1 " / 130 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 0,9
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 70 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0,16
Relative quality as seaboat: 1,17

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0,515
Sharpness coefficient: 0,35
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 7,07
'Natural speed' for length: 20,65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim: 60
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 127,6 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 114,7 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 104 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0,91
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 82 lbs / square foot or 398 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 2,23
(for 20,01 ft / 6,10 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment 6,21 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 1,00

---------------------------------------------------------------------


-two ships in the class (Java, Sumatra)

-First Dutch cruisers completed after the "Big Battlecruiser" plan was started

-This class was designed with long range and high speed as priorities, to comply with the most important points of the named plan.

-Originally intended to be a 6-strong class, only 2 were started because of lack of resources at the moment.

-Both ships saw intense combat during the Andaman war. KM Sumatra was credited with the sinking of the Indian destroyer G-113 during the last battle of that conflict.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



Borneo, Dutch Light Cruiser laid down 1918

Displacement:
5.624 t light; 5.807 t standard; 6.526 t normal; 7.075 t full load
Loading submergence 406 tons/feet

Dimensions:
442,91 ft x 50,03 ft x 20,01 ft (normal load)
135,00 m x 15,25 m x 6,10 m

Armament:
7 - 5,12" / 130 mm guns
4 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns
2 - 2,95" / 75 mm AA guns
6 - 1,57" / 40 mm guns
Weight of broadside 629 lbs / 285 kg
6 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
Belt 3,00" / 76 mm, end belts 1,25" / 32 mm
Belts cover 150 % of normal area
Main gun shields 3,00" / 76 mm, 2nd gun shields 1,00" / 25 mm
AA gun shields 1,00" / 25 mm
Armour deck 1,00" / 25 mm, Conning tower 1,00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 66.819 shp / 49.847 Kw = 31,00 kts
Range 15.000nm at 10,00 kts

Complement:
363 - 471

Cost:
£1,201 million / $4,803 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 79 tons, 1,2 %
Armour: 868 tons, 13,3 %
Belts: 548 tons, 8,4 %, Armament: 50 tons, 0,8 %, Armour Deck: 263 tons, 4,0 %
Conning Tower: 8 tons, 0,1 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 2.410 tons, 36,9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.266 tons, 34,7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 902 tons, 13,8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Metacentric height 2,6

Remarks:
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation & workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1,22
Shellfire needed to sink: 4.969 lbs / 2.254 Kg = 74,1 x 5,1 " / 130 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 0,9
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 70 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0,17
Relative quality as seaboat: 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0,515
Sharpness coefficient: 0,35
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 7,25
'Natural speed' for length: 21,05 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim: 58
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 129,1 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 126,3 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 103 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0,94
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 86 lbs / square foot or 419 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 2,30
(for 20,83 ft / 6,35 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment 6,93 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 1,03

--------------------------------------------------------------------

-Six ships were planned of this class to finally give the fleet a credible light cruiser force. All of the planned ships were launched on schedule (something new for the overloaded dutch building network, used to see delays and cancelled ships for more than a decade ), two per year starting in 1918. So far only the two first ships of the 1918 batch have been completed (Borneo and Timor). The next four are in different states of completion, as follows:

-Surinam (88%-being built at Vlissingen)

-Celebes (83%-being built at Amsterdam)

-Ambon (65%- being built at The Hague)

-Papua (44%- being built at IJmuiden)

-Slightly enlarged version of the Java class, with a somewhat higher top speed and new 130mm guns.

-The main guns are of the newer 13cm/52 Mark IIA type.


--------------------------------------------------------------------


Any comment will be welcome

next chapter: destroyers and small fighting ships of the dutch navy.

That´s an interesting post, RAM. Let me comment on it.

First I´d like to know if there´s a reason why you haven´t posted the whole spring*-files? I´d like to know more about the ships bc and hull-strength for example. Why is their belt not long enough?

Second I like the way you´ve put it and one can clearly see how things develope. In detail...

While I really like your latest two classes I have some issues with the earlier ones.

Quoted

Originally posted by RAM
Amsterdam, Dutch Light Cruiser laid down 1903

Displacement:
4.476 t light; 4.603 t standard; 5.230 t normal; 5.711 t full load
Loading submergence 325 tons/feet

-first dutch ships with turbine machinery

-All of them refitted between 1917-1919

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Palembang, Dutch Light Cruiser laid down 1905

Displacement:
5.402 t light; 5.542 t standard; 5.877 t normal; 6.122 t full load
Loading submergence 372 tons/feet

Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 44.771 shp / 33.399 Kw = 28,50 kts
Range 4.000nm at 10,00 kts

-First dutch ships bigger than destroyers with oil-burning only machinery.

1.) The 1903er design is too large for a light cruiser. Those ships are 2000ts heavier than the historical LÜBECK-class (laid down 1903, 3265ts) for example.
2.) The 1903er design is 5 years ahead of her time using turbines.
3.) Your 1905er design is again way too large for a CL of that era. Historical the first germn CL to hardly match their size was the MAGDEBURG-class of 1910.
4.) The 1905er design is ahead of its time by several years in general when looking at it closely: oil-firing only, speed, size. In fact she looks much like the german KARLSRUHE-class of 1911 on paper.

In general I´d like to know more about those units refitted. What was done during those refits and how do they look like now? At least the 1905er design needs little upgrade except for upgunning her to ~15cm guns. Everything else is still fine for 1920 (on paper). With a broadside of 4-5x 15cm guns she could still take on any british or german late-war cruiser.

Regards,

HoOmAn

Heya hooman

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
That´s an interesting post, RAM. Let me comment on it.

First I´d like to know if there´s a reason why you haven´t posted the whole spring*-files? I´d like to know more about the ships bc and hull-strength for example.

all of them are HS-compliant, and have reasonable BCs. The only reason why I kept the final part of SS report out was to not take too much space, but I have no problem in editing the lists and include the missing data if people wants me to.

Quoted

Second I like the way you´ve put it and one can clearly see how things develope. In detail...

While I really like your latest two classes I have some issues with the earlier ones.


1.) The 1903er design is too large for a light cruiser. Those ships are 2000ts heavier than the historical LÜBECK-class (laid down 1903, 3265ts) for example.

hum...maybe you're right, now that I've looked a bit more into it. I'm not all that familiar with pre-1905 ships of any size so I may have gone way too far with the two first designs making them too big. I will revise them and edit the info to better match it's historical counterparts .

Quoted

2.) The 1903er design is 5 years ahead of her time using turbines.

Also right, but not by 5 years, but for 2 ... IIRC first turbines put in a ship were on HMS Dreadnought .

Quoted

3.) Your 1905er design is again way too large for a CL of that era. Historical the first germn CL to hardly match their size was the MAGDEBURG-class of 1910.
4.) The 1905er design is ahead of its time by several years in general when looking at it closely: oil-firing only, speed, size. In fact she looks much like the german KARLSRUHE-class of 1911 on paper.

I again agree on size. Not that much on oil-firing. I am trying to keep the dutch fleet as a contender for innovations on military shipbuilding, naval artillery, naval doctrines, etc. Sort of a military branch that knows it's never going to be too big, but tries to keep it's place between the world's better fleets through the applicacion of innovative concepts, modern technology and the latest shipbuilding techniques that somewhat balances the fact that it's never going to be up there by it's mere size.

Running along that idea, the concept of a CL using oil-firing only boilers in 1905 doesn't seem that impressive. Of course if the general consensus is that it indeed IS hardly believable I can go back and put a mixed coal-oil firing machinery into the class...but I still think it's not that unbelievable .

Quoted

In general I´d like to know more about those units refitted. What was done during those refits and how do they look like now? At least the 1905er design needs little upgrade except for upgunning her to ~15cm guns. Everything else is still fine for 1920 (on paper). With a broadside of 4-5x 15cm guns she could still take on any british or german late-war cruiser.

Refits were done just to replace aging equipment in general and to give them more years in service. According to the rules each ship has to go through a refit after their 15 first years in service or they would pay a penalty on operations. The refits were just done for that reason, not to upgrade, or fit new weapons, armor, etc... if that was the case, then probably the Amsterdams would've been rebuilt with oil firing boilers instead of just refitted.


well, I'll now take a look at the Amsterdams and Palembangs to see how do I redesign them as quite smaller cruisers .


[edit]redesign done, new design specs posted in the editted post avobe [/edit]

Quoted

Also right, but not by 5 years, but for 2 ... IIRC first turbines put in a ship were on HMS Dreadnought .

Maybe the first warship, but the first turbine powered ship was Turbinia in 1894.
Saw it on the BBC several months ago. Very small, slender and fast ship.
I would have loved it, if it were possible to sim this baby with Springsharp.

As to oil firing boilers:
[edit: aarrggghhh!!! this one doesn't seem to like to cooperate with me!!]

Quoted

The Italian navy led the way in experimenting with oil starting in 1890, and by 1900 most of its torpedo boats were oil burning.

From "Naval Innovation; from Coal to Oil." It's originally a PDF file, but here's the HTML version:

http://www.google.nl/search?q=cache:_t25…&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8


Walter
(as ever, hoping that the links work... and that second one didn't work out the way it should)

Quoted

Originally posted by RAM

Also right, but not by 5 years, but for 2 ... IIRC first turbines put in a ship were on HMS Dreadnought .

Well, the first ship to use a turbine was a small british vessel named after its propulsion plant and build by Mr. Parson: TURBINIA.

HMS DREADNOUGHT was the first capital unit to use turbines but IIRC CLs got their turbines later.

The first small warships to use turbines were two RN destroyers (ALBACORE and BONETTA, IIRC, working from memory here, both commissioned 1907 with speeds of ~27kn).

The first german cruiser with turbines was STETTIN which was laid down in 1906. Assuming the British were ahead of the Germans by the usual 1 or two years 1905 is acceptable for a light cruiser.

Quoted

I again agree on size. Not that much on oil-firing. I am trying to keep the dutch fleet as a contender for innovations on military shipbuilding, naval artillery, naval doctrines, etc. Sort of a military branch that knows it's never going to be too big, but tries to keep it's place between the world's better fleets through the applicacion of innovative concepts, modern technology and the latest shipbuilding techniques that somewhat balances the fact that it's never going to be up there by it's mere size.

Well, there is NEI offering you enough oil but the dutch fleet as pacesetter? Beg your pardon, but you would need a lot of money to be ahead of the British or the Germans during those years and I can hardly believe you´ll have enough money.

So long,

HoOmAn

well, the Armada is a very early adaptor of oil firing - but OTOH stayed with piston engines a fair bit longer than most other people.

LO(oks) L(ike) we were thinking about the same thing there. :-)

You have any better data on all oil firing boilers?

Walter

Quoted

Well, there is NEI offering you enough oil but the dutch fleet as pacesetter? Beg your pardon, but you would need a lot of money to be ahead of the British or the Germans during those years and I can hardly believe you´ll have enough money.

Generally speaking, I doubt anybody has the money to be an innovator in all areas - it'd be more reasonable to put one's self on the cutting edge of a couple of areas (long range torpedoes or shell-form or whatever).

For example, I see no reason that India should be on the cutting edge of anything, so am actively trying to avoid being innovative for now.

Not that I'm picking on you, RAM, it's more of a general observation.

J

Hummm, Hooman, I recall that the first destroyers designed with turbines were british, and were built around 1900 or so...(HMS Cobra? or something like that?) the Dreadnought was the first ship bigger than DD fitted with turbines in the world, that was what I meant in my previous message.
Anyway the amsterdams now run on reciprocating engines

and the oil firing boilers isn't something that expensive...it may give troubles because it's so innovative (and the Palembangs were not unfaulty ), but other than that...

Quoted

Not that I'm picking on you, RAM, it's more of a general observation.

J

no problem. In fact I agree with you, the KM doesn't try to be the best at everything...but tries to focus on three departments. In those three is where the Dutch fleet concentrates almost exclusively:

1- Naval Artillery (something normal...given the fact that most dutch ships are relatively undergunned when compared with their foreign counterparts, the focus of the navy is to take those smaller guns and make them as good as possible)

2- Armor distribution (given that the KM operates under the doctrines of "fast-well protected-over anything else", there is a notable focus to better protect the ships through the better deployement of armor for an increased protection. The armor distribution of the "De Ruyters" is the result of this path of investigation.

3- Ship propulsion (also product of the doctrine used for the KM. The need for long range and high cruise speeds forces an almost continuous investigation in this department).


Other than those three paths of investigation, where the Dutch navy should be (that's what it actively tries among the best in the world, the rest is quite normal. As I said, I'm not trying the KM to be the best equipped in the world with it's own tech, just to have some fields of investigation and development where they run very very high when compared with other fleets .

Quoted

Originally posted by RAM
Hummm, Hooman, I recall that the first destroyers designed with turbines were british, and were built around 1900 or so...(HMS Cobra? or something like that?)

As I saud, I was working from memory. I´ve now looked it up in Whitleys and found the passage I was referring to. In 1900 the British Navy ordered 75 units of the so called 30-knoter of which the last two, ALBACORE and BONETTA, were build with turbines in 1907. This class was a follow-on to the so called 27-knotter of which 42 units were build. Whitley then states that during the building of those two classes several important developments occured: Experiments with oil-firing on SPEEDY and SURELY in 1898 and the introduction of turbines (!) on the two vessels I already mentioned.

That said I also remembered to have heard about turbines in earlier designs around 1900 but I couldn´t point my finger on it. HMS Viper was the name I had in mind but I really didn´t know where and why I read it. So I wrote about the ships above...

Meanwhile I´ve found at least one online source mentioning HMS VIPER and (!) HMS COBRA as the two earliest attempts to put turbines into a DD.

See http://www.birrcastleireland.com/new/ind…Experiments.htm (scroll down)

That´s not the source I had in mind but it proofs you´re right. There´s surely something in my books somewhere providing much more information but I can´t remember where to look for it and I don´t have the time to browse them all... :o/ I really hate that!

Regards,

HoOmAn

PS: Got "Japanese Cruisers fo the Pacific War" today... The book easily weights 3kg and has ~900 pages. Uh! I hadn´t time to read much but it contains really a lot of details as it seems... More to come... Ordered my first Friedman today.... Maybe we should put up a board where we can place sources (interesting links and summaries of books)?

A books section would be very usefull indeed! I lack a decent book pertaining to carrier designs but I have M.J. Whitleys BB, cruiser and DD books in addition to my new copy of DK Browns Nelson to Vanguard.
Currently my WW1 reference is obtained from Janes warships of WW1 and my Encyclopedia of weapons and warfare rounds the whole collection out with some extra information. I also have many of the squadron signal books on U.S. warships of WW2, which have awesome pictures and extra info on the American fleet.

I play Japan and I don't even have "Japanese Cruisers of the Pacific War". Need to put that on the list of books I should get, along with various others.

Walter

I've edited all the messages posted so now all ships show their full Springsharp details .

Excellent...now I don't feel so guilty about taking down Hertog Handrik with a single torpedo.

J