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Saturday, March 27th 2010, 6:46pm



Originally posted by Marek Gutkowski
I see no reason for it to become a player nation.
For all the army and other land based things we post on this board those are mostly fluff.



Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
The Hungarian-Rumanian antipathy, and the fact that Hungary is the last country in Europe still arms-limited from the treaty that ended the Great War.

*Bulgaria looks innocent, having sold another few (unarmed) DAR-3s and DAR-11s to the Suspiciously Well-Armed Royal Flying Club of Hungary, with Romania's approval...* *Points* LOOK AT THAT GIANT PEACH COBBLER OVER IN LIECHTENSTEIN!


Wednesday, March 31st 2010, 9:22am

A couple of pages back, Wes mentioned something about switching some of the 40mm for 20mm, and adding some MG for protection against MTB's. Now, although Romania has three different types of medium calibre AA guns (65mm, 70mm, 75mm) on her ships, it appears I have nothing smaller than 20mm. Poland does though, and if Marek doesn't mind Romania using his MG, I added it on the ship. As well, I felt things might be getting a bit crowded on deck, and seeing as I can't draw decided to reduce the torpedo tubes from 8 to 4, here is the revised sim once again:

vr 33, Romania Destroyer laid down 1938

1,138 t light; 1,189 t standard; 1,292 t normal; 1,375 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
385.38 ft / 374.02 ft x 31.17 ft x 9.35 ft (normal load)
117.46 m / 114.00 m x 9.50 m x 2.85 m

4 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns (2x2 guns), 40.61lbs / 18.42kg shells, 1931 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 2.56" / 65.0 mm guns in single mounts, 8.38lbs / 3.80kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
10 - 0.31" / 7.9 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1938 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 206 lbs / 93 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
4 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 29,793 shp / 22,225 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 186 tons

107 - 140

£0.833 million / $3.330 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 26 tons, 2.0 %
Machinery: 616 tons, 47.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 447 tons, 34.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 154 tons, 11.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 3.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
481 lbs / 218 Kg = 11.9 x 4.3 " / 110 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.34
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 10.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.25
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.24

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.415
Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Stern: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Average freeboard: 14.53 ft / 4.43 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 174.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.3 %
Waterplane Area: 7,518 Square feet or 698 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 68 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 30 lbs/sq ft or 146 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.84
- Overall: 0.57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


Wednesday, March 31st 2010, 2:49pm

I don't mind they are basically 08/15(there was a book with the same name by HH Kirst) feel free.
If You are interested getting guns from Poland a 13mm gun based on German TuF round is also available.

Looking at Your design I have to say, some what popular expresion, "More Dakka". It may have been on Your mind when You were designing.


Wednesday, March 31st 2010, 3:40pm

Adventures in math!

The effective range and penetrating power of a .30cal machinegun means it's optimal only for engaging un-armoured aircraft within 400-600m of the ship, at which point it's pretty useless. "Dear airplane, thank you for what we are about to receive, now share some of our thanks."

At 420 knots (for instance, a diving fighter or attack plane), an aircraft will cover 216 meters per second. At an effective range of 600m, a .30 cal will have less than three seconds in effective range (and once the plane flies over, the guns opposite have the same amount of time, with the disadvantage they can't see the plane until it's past them). A Browning M1917A1 can shoot 600rpm or 30 rounds in the three seconds the plane's in range. A Lewis gun is a bit slower.

20mm is better: 4,000m max range. Presuming an attacking plane is still making a steady 420 knots, the gunners get eighteen seconds to shoot at the plane before it arrives directly overhead. At the lowest practical ROF (250rpm) that's ~75 rounds during the time the plane's in range until it's directly overhead.

By comparison, the max range of a 40mm Bofors gun is over 10,000 meters. Presuming our attacking airplane maintains a speed of 420 knots, it's in range for 46 seconds before it's directly overhead. The nominal ROF for a 40mm is 120rpm; so the Bofors can shoot ~92 rounds during the time it's in range.

Your 65mm gun, if based on the Italian gun of that caliber, reaches out about 8,200 yards and fires 20 RPM. So 38 seconds in range - 12, maybe 13 rounds before the plane's overhead.

Granted, not every aircraft is moving 420 knots during it's approach; but I trust you can see why, on pure ROF and range issues (and not even getting into penetration), the .30cal MG is a losing proposition. It might give you More Dakka, but in this case that's not what you need. If you're looking to avenge your ship from the bombs that the airplane already dropped on you, then .30cal is fine. If you're looking to protect your ship from getting bombs dropped on you, you need a 40mm Bofors (or better yet, a 5"/L38).


Wednesday, March 31st 2010, 3:48pm

MG's of the 50 cal range are best left to use against small craft such as MTB's and motor launches (Which is what I think Jason is going for with the smaller caliber MG's). It does reasonable damage when it hits them and works well against its exposed crew members.


Wednesday, March 31st 2010, 3:59pm

Even then, 20mm guns can likely do the job better against MTBs than .30cal or .50cals. The only ships I'm still installing .50cals on are minesweepers, as they can use them to detonate mines that are cut loose, and riverine craft (anti-personnel), and submarines (need something light, even if it's puny).


Wednesday, March 31st 2010, 4:23pm

Well bigger is usually better :) 40mm and 20mm are sure to take an MTB out but 50 cals do nicely too and add to the volume of fire dirrected at an MTB.


Wednesday, March 31st 2010, 4:28pm

I design my latest ships with provision of 20mm guns but they enter service with out them installed.
Right now my guns are only 110mm in single or dual mount and 40mm in dual and triple.

The 20mm will be installed only is there will be a war coming, I have a small nation so 20mm guns are reserved for the army and air force.

I read that 20-25mm range guns were good for morale but poor for shooting down planes.
Then again Europe is not the pacific. Attacking ships with out air cover will be impossible in day time Baltic Adriatic, Aegean and Black Sea are all high intensity combat areas.
A possibility of close courter combat is high. Torpedo planes to strike high value targets will have to fly past some destroyers on there way to target.
Going at 300-400km/h.
That 5 kilometres per minute so
15 seconds under 8mm fire
25 under 13mm
55 under 20mm
2 minutes under 40mm Bofors.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Marek Gutkowski" (Mar 31st 2010, 4:29pm)