WesWorld

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk

Certainly for your purposes. My design parameters included escorting fleet units from Matadi, Kongo, across the Indian Ocean to Batavia, Dutch East Indies in all weather and in the face of long ranged air attacks. As such the range and the ability to provide heavy long range AA fire on a fairly stable platform was necessary

me think that my 10000 t CLAA fit those requirements perfectly.

Oh I'm sure it could do some of the roles, but it would likely be a poor destroyer

The Dutch haven't sprung for a CLAA yet, though I've looked at the Windhond Class as a possible basis. Budgets are still tight, needs many, and the basic Dutch AA suite is heavy by historical standards, and FC is quite good, so the CLAAs will wait a bit more. In this case, I really needed DDs that could make that Kongo-DEI trip at fleet speeds with a reserve.

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
In this case, I really needed DDs that could make that Kongo-DEI trip at fleet speeds with a reserve.

Modified to suit your needs. Reduced speed by a knot for better range and sea boat quality. Basic armament unchanged.

Enter ship name, Siam Large Destroyer laid down 1938

Displacement:
2,732 t light; 2,899 t standard; 3,481 t normal; 3,946 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(519.13 ft / 505.25 ft) x 45.93 ft x (13.12 / 14.22 ft)
(158.23 m / 154.00 m) x 14.00 m x (4.00 / 4.34 m)

Armament:
8 - 4.92" / 125 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, forward deck forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck aft
1 raised mount aft - superfiring
8 - 2.17" / 55.0 mm 55.0 cal guns - 5.51lbs / 2.50kg shells, 1,250 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 75.0 cal guns - 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 489 lbs / 222 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m torpedoes - 2.402 t each, 19.214 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes
Main DC/AS Mortars
50 - 440.92 lbs / 200.00 kg Depth Charges + 50 reloads - 19.684 t total
in Stern depth charge racks

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Conning towers: Forward 1.97" / 50 mm, Aft 0.98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 54,358 shp / 40,551 Kw = 35.00 kts
Range 8,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,048 tons

Complement:
226 - 294

Cost:
£2.022 million / $8.088 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 203 tons, 5.8%
- Guns: 140 tons, 4.0%
- Weapons: 63 tons, 1.8%
Armour: 52 tons, 1.5%
- Armament: 37 tons, 1.1%
- Conning Towers: 15 tons, 0.4%
Machinery: 1,472 tons, 42.3%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 965 tons, 27.7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 748 tons, 21.5%
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 1.1%
- On freeboard deck: 20 tons
- Above deck: 20 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,338 lbs / 607 Kg = 22.5 x 4.9 " / 125 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 12.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.400 / 0.418
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00%, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forward deck: 20.00%, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m, 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
- Aft deck: 45.00%, 15.75 ft / 4.80 m, 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00%, 15.75 ft / 4.80 m, 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
- Average freeboard: 17.74 ft / 5.41 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 153.3%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 167.1%
Waterplane Area: 14,825 Square feet or 1,377 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 41 lbs/sq ft or 202 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.00
- Overall: 0.53
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Thanks
But I'll stick with the Z82s. They are 400t cheaper to build, and 120m long, so they fit a smaller dry dock. The extra knot is enticing, but not as critical for the role.

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
Thanks
But I'll stick with the Z82s. They are 400t cheaper to build, and 120m long, so they fit a smaller dry dock. The extra knot is enticing, but not as critical for the role.

No prob.

btw, I got a design which is basically my previous 6000t CLAA design modified to meet your requirements. I left the basic armaments unchanged, so she has massive AA firepower as compared to your Windhond class CL at the cost of being 1.5 knots slower. The deck size was also increased so I'm almost sure that the armaments I put can be well accommodated. Even though you have no urgent need for it, I can still PM you the design if you wish so.

Why use a length to beam ratio of 11:1? For a ship meant to sail open waters that is quite high. (*snap in 2*)

Below is a SAE desin, similar displacement, same beam but 20m shorter (!!! - would expect your design to me much heavier). Gives an idea of deck psace available, keeping in mind your longer hull also has to carry an additional main gun.



Another design of mine probably fits even better but again is 20m shorter.... Should make you re-think your designs hull form.

I'm not too worried of having length to beam ratio of 11:1. I believe many historic design of this size has similiar length to beam ratio and as far as I know nothing "snapped" before.

Alternatively I can always make the design look like this. But for my previous design I can get (slightly) better stats in SS and a larger deck space to put stuff so...


Enter ship name, Siam Large Destroyer laid down 1938

Displacement:
2,840 t light; 3,000 t standard; 3,501 t normal; 3,902 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(465.61 ft / 451.12 ft) x 41.01 ft x (15.58 / 16.75 ft)
(141.92 m / 137.50 m) x 12.50 m x (4.75 / 5.11 m)

Armament:
8 - 4.92" / 125 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, forward deck forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck aft
1 raised mount aft - superfiring
8 - 2.17" / 55.0 mm 55.0 cal guns - 5.51lbs / 2.50kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 75.0 cal guns - 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 489 lbs / 222 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m torpedoes - 2.402 t each, 19.214 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes
Main DC/AS Mortars
40 - 440.92 lbs / 200.00 kg Depth Charges + 40 reloads - 15.747 t total
in Stern depth charge racks

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Conning towers: Forward 1.97" / 50 mm, Aft 0.79" / 20 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 65,210 shp / 48,647 Kw = 36.00 kts
Range 3,940nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 902 tons

Complement:
226 - 295

Cost:
£2.216 million / $8.864 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 198 tons, 5.7%
- Guns: 140 tons, 4.0%
- Weapons: 58 tons, 1.7%
Armour: 46 tons, 1.3%
- Armament: 32 tons, 0.9%
- Conning Towers: 14 tons, 0.4%
Machinery: 1,691 tons, 48.3%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 865 tons, 24.7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 661 tons, 18.9%
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 1.1%
- On freeboard deck: 20 tons
- Above deck: 20 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
946 lbs / 429 Kg = 15.9 x 4.9 " / 125 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 11.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.425 / 0.441
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.29 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00%, 27.56 ft / 8.40 m, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m
- Forward deck: 20.00%, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m
- Aft deck: 45.00%, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00%, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 17.01 ft / 5.18 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 172.2%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 121.7%
Waterplane Area: 12,018 Square feet or 1,116 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 83%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 41 lbs/sq ft or 201 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.34
- Overall: 0.55
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Quoted

Originally posted by gaiasabre11
I'm not too worried of having length to beam ratio of 11:1. I believe many historic design of this size has similiar length to beam ratio and as far as I know nothing "snapped" before.

I think some research is necessary here. To point you into the right direction:

Check some books about destroyers and light cruisers and calculate their l:b ration. Whitley´s Destroyers of World War 2 might be a good start.

Try to find out what happened to the japanese fleet when they ran into a typhoon during one of the large fleet exercises.

You might then bring this into correlation.

Enjoy!

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn

I think some research is necessary here. To point you into the right direction:

Check some books about destroyers and light cruisers and calculate their l:b ration. Whitley´s Destroyers of World War 2 might be a good start.

Try to find out what happened to the japanese fleet when they ran into a typhoon during one of the large fleet exercises.

You might then bring this into correlation.

Enjoy!

Well, a little research have shown that the Japanese have a lot of their destroyers of with l:b raio of around 10.5 ~ 11+, while the Americans have a lot of theirs below 10 in l:b ratio.

So far I cannot find anything related to japanese fleet exercise that turned into a disaster due to a major typhoon, but I did find something about TF38 and Typhoon Cobra...

Quoted

Originally posted by gaiasabre11
btw, I got a design which is basically my previous 6000t CLAA design modified to meet your requirements. I left the basic armaments unchanged, so she has massive AA firepower as compared to your Windhond class CL at the cost of being 1.5 knots slower. The deck size was also increased so I'm almost sure that the armaments I put can be well accommodated. Even though you have no urgent need for it, I can still PM you the design if you wish so.

The Windhonds were treaty designs, but the base hull worked out ok. Swapping the 6 x 152 & 2x 100mm out and putting 12 x 125mm in * , leaves the same hull at 0.92 comp hull and 5,758 tons (which makes the limit 0.9). If I new build, I will use current engines, bringing them to 0.98 comp hull. The vague intent includes both the traditional CV/BB escort, but also adding them to existing CL squadrons, so the speed is if anything a bit lacking.
* edit : though I suppose if I'm doing that, I should up the waist 100mm to 125s. For a 14x 125mm broadside.

As for L:B, you find some very high L:B ratios in the IJN, some in the Italian/French fleets. The former also had several ships return to the yards for reinforcement and repair, while the latter were in a speed contest in the calmer waters of the Med.

Siam doesn't get hit as bad as Java and Sumatra, but there should be some cyclone influenced weather, and of course monsoon season, and Pacific Typhoons.

A slightly revised version with 150mm main guns. I have found out that my 4500 t cruiser is a failed design. The hull is slightly revised too.


Enter ship name, Siam Large Destroyer laid down 1938

Displacement:
2,841 t light; 3,000 t standard; 3,472 t normal; 3,849 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(519.74 ft / 505.25 ft) x 45.93 ft x (13.78 / 14.68 ft)
(158.42 m / 154.00 m) x 14.00 m x (4.20 / 4.48 m)

Armament:
5 - 5.91" / 150 mm 60.0 cal guns - 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline, forward deck forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
3 x Single mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
2 raised mounts
8 - 2.17" / 55.0 mm 55.0 cal guns - 5.51lbs / 2.50kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 75.0 cal guns - 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 600 lbs / 272 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m torpedoes - 2.402 t each, 19.214 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes
Main DC/AS Mortars
40 - 440.92 lbs / 200.00 kg Depth Charges + 40 reloads - 15.747 t total
in Stern depth charge racks

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Conning towers: Forward 1.97" / 50 mm, Aft 0.98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 59,861 shp / 44,656 Kw = 36.00 kts
Range 3,800nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 849 tons

Complement:
225 - 293

Cost:
£2.212 million / $8.848 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 282 tons, 8.1%
- Guns: 224 tons, 6.5%
- Weapons: 58 tons, 1.7%
Armour: 56 tons, 1.6%
- Armament: 42 tons, 1.2%
- Conning Towers: 15 tons, 0.4%
Machinery: 1,560 tons, 44.9%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 903 tons, 26.0%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 631 tons, 18.2%
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 1.2%
- On freeboard deck: 20 tons
- Above deck: 20 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,086 lbs / 492 Kg = 10.5 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 12.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.395
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.88 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00%, 27.56 ft / 8.40 m, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forward deck: 20.00%, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Aft deck: 45.00%, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00%, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 16.80 ft / 5.12 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 165.7%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155.2%
Waterplane Area: 14,636 Square feet or 1,360 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 85%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 43 lbs/sq ft or 211 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.92
- Overall: 0.53
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room


I also found out that I can boost the speed by an extra 0.25 with the revised hull.


Enter ship name, Siam Large Destroyer laid down 1938

Displacement:
2,841 t light; 3,000 t standard; 3,472 t normal; 3,849 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(519.74 ft / 505.25 ft) x 45.93 ft x (13.78 / 14.68 ft)
(158.42 m / 154.00 m) x 14.00 m x (4.20 / 4.48 m)

Armament:
8 - 4.92" / 125 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, forward deck forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck aft
1 raised mount aft - superfiring
8 - 2.17" / 55.0 mm 55.0 cal guns - 5.51lbs / 2.50kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 75.0 cal guns - 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 489 lbs / 222 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m torpedoes - 2.402 t each, 19.214 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes
Main DC/AS Mortars
40 - 440.92 lbs / 200.00 kg Depth Charges + 40 reloads - 15.747 t total
in Stern depth charge racks

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Conning towers: Forward 1.97" / 50 mm, Aft 0.98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 61,529 shp / 45,901 Kw = 36.25 kts
Range 3,800nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 849 tons

Complement:
225 - 293

Cost:
£2.155 million / $8.619 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 198 tons, 5.7%
- Guns: 140 tons, 4.0%
- Weapons: 58 tons, 1.7%
Armour: 52 tons, 1.5%
- Armament: 37 tons, 1.1%
- Conning Towers: 15 tons, 0.4%
Machinery: 1,613 tons, 46.5%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 938 tons, 27.0%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 631 tons, 18.2%
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 1.2%
- On freeboard deck: 20 tons
- Above deck: 20 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,110 lbs / 503 Kg = 18.6 x 4.9 " / 125 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.37
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 11.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.28
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.395
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.88 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00%, 27.56 ft / 8.40 m, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forward deck: 20.00%, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Aft deck: 45.00%, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00%, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 16.80 ft / 5.12 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 166.4%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155.2%
Waterplane Area: 14,636 Square feet or 1,360 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 87%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 42 lbs/sq ft or 205 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.89
- Overall: 0.53
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Why are you interested in a 60 caliber 15cm gun here? For the purposes a ship like this serves (crushing destroyers and smaller vessels, launching torpedoes and running away from larger vessels), the extra barrel length isn't useful (the thicker-walled shells needed to deal with the higher velocity won't carry as much HE, see here: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_59-60_skc25.htm and here: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_59-48_skc36.htm ). The 60 caliber guns are nice for armor penetration with AP rounds, but a destroyer doesn't want to gun-fight with something that you need AP rounds to hurt for very long.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
Why are you interested in a 60 caliber 15cm gun here? For the purposes a ship like this serves (crushing destroyers and smaller vessels, launching torpedoes and running away from larger vessels), the extra barrel length isn't useful (the thicker-walled shells needed to deal with the higher velocity won't carry as much HE, see here: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_59-60_skc25.htm and here: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_59-48_skc36.htm ). The 60 caliber guns are nice for armor penetration with AP rounds, but a destroyer doesn't want to gun-fight with something that you need AP rounds to hurt for very long.

I want to give ships of this design with the 150mm guns the option of making long range hits on enemy cruisers/destroyers. I feel that the extra weight is worth it for the slightly better muzzle velocity/armor penetration/range.

Also, 15 x 4 = 60, perfect. :p

But on a side note, yeah, although the extra muzzle velocity might be good, perhaps a larger bursting charge would be better? Since this gun also has some AA capabilities I'm not really sure...

Barrel length of a 15cm gun on a DD won't matter to range, you're going to be limited by how far your rangefinders can see (short rangefinder height, compared to a BC or a BB), and how accurately they can range (smaller rangefinders = shorter distance they can accurately range). The 48 caliber gun will fire far enough that it's out to 23,500m, so into the ranges where hits are extremely rare, and out to ranges where the DD probably can't see the target anyway. (Keep in mind that the longest hit ever scored on a moving ship target was scored at 24,200m, by Scharnhorst on Glorious.)


For the roles this ship has, I'd go with the bigger bursting charge. The AP capability just isn't that crucial, and you can get decent AP capability with a 48-50 caliber gun anyway.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson

For the roles this ship has, I'd go with the bigger bursting charge. The AP capability just isn't that crucial, and you can get decent AP capability with a 48-50 caliber gun anyway.

Ok, then, but should I then stick with 150mm/60 DPs in my CLAAs?

anyways, some revised designs. The sea keeping droppeed down to 1.00~1.01 so I'm not sure whether to use them or not.


Enter ship name, Siam Large Destroyer laid down 1938

Displacement:
2,841 t light; 3,000 t standard; 3,472 t normal; 3,849 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(519.74 ft / 505.25 ft) x 45.93 ft x (13.78 / 14.68 ft)
(158.42 m / 154.00 m) x 14.00 m x (4.20 / 4.48 m)

Armament:
5 - 5.91" / 150 mm 50.0 cal guns - 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model
5 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.17" / 55.0 mm 55.0 cal guns - 5.51lbs / 2.50kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 75.0 cal guns - 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 600 lbs / 272 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m torpedoes - 2.402 t each, 19.214 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes
Main DC/AS Mortars
40 - 440.92 lbs / 200.00 kg Depth Charges - 7.874 t total
in Stern depth charge racks

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Conning towers: Forward 1.97" / 50 mm, Aft 0.79" / 20 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 62,208 shp / 46,407 Kw = 36.35 kts
Range 3,800nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 849 tons

Complement:
225 - 293

Cost:
£2.183 million / $8.732 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 231 tons, 6.7%
- Guns: 183 tons, 5.3%
- Weapons: 48 tons, 1.4%
Armour: 54 tons, 1.5%
- Armament: 40 tons, 1.2%
- Conning Towers: 14 tons, 0.4%
Machinery: 1,621 tons, 46.7%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 895 tons, 25.8%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 631 tons, 18.2%
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 1.2%
- On freeboard deck: 20 tons
- Above deck: 20 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,061 lbs / 481 Kg = 10.3 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 11.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.33
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.395
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.88 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00%, 27.56 ft / 8.40 m, 20.01 ft / 6.10 m
- Forward deck: 20.00%, 20.01 ft / 6.10 m, 20.01 ft / 6.10 m
- Aft deck: 45.00%, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00%, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 16.48 ft / 5.02 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 168.1%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.1%
Waterplane Area: 14,636 Square feet or 1,360 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 85%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 42 lbs/sq ft or 207 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.84
- Overall: 0.52
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room


I can actually go for 36.5 knots!!


Enter ship name, Siam Large Destroyer laid down 1938

Displacement:
2,841 t light; 3,000 t standard; 3,472 t normal; 3,849 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(519.74 ft / 505.25 ft) x 45.93 ft x (13.78 / 14.68 ft)
(158.42 m / 154.00 m) x 14.00 m x (4.20 / 4.48 m)

Armament:
8 - 4.92" / 125 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, forward deck forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck aft
1 raised mount aft - superfiring
8 - 2.17" / 55.0 mm 55.0 cal guns - 5.51lbs / 2.50kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 75.0 cal guns - 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 489 lbs / 222 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m torpedoes - 2.402 t each, 19.214 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes
Main DC/AS Mortars
40 - 440.92 lbs / 200.00 kg Depth Charges - 7.874 t total
in Stern depth charge racks

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Conning towers: Forward 1.97" / 50 mm, Aft 0.79" / 20 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 63,236 shp / 47,174 Kw = 36.50 kts
Range 3,800nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 849 tons

Complement:
225 - 293

Cost:
£2.182 million / $8.726 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 188 tons, 5.4%
- Guns: 140 tons, 4.0%
- Weapons: 48 tons, 1.4%
Armour: 44 tons, 1.3%
- Armament: 30 tons, 0.9%
- Conning Towers: 14 tons, 0.4%
Machinery: 1,647 tons, 47.4%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 922 tons, 26.6%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 631 tons, 18.2%
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 1.2%
- On freeboard deck: 20 tons
- Above deck: 20 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,057 lbs / 480 Kg = 17.7 x 4.9 " / 125 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.39
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 11.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.27
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.395
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.88 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00%, 27.56 ft / 8.40 m, 20.01 ft / 6.10 m
- Forward deck: 20.00%, 20.01 ft / 6.10 m, 20.01 ft / 6.10 m
- Aft deck: 45.00%, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00%, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 16.48 ft / 5.02 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 169.6%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.1%
Waterplane Area: 14,636 Square feet or 1,360 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 85%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 42 lbs/sq ft or 204 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.84
- Overall: 0.52
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Small question: should the 3 aft guns on my design be placed on aft deck or aft deck aft in SS? I was thinking of arranging the guns as in the Fletchers but I'm not really sure how it can be done in SS.

Normally, we do the distribution by centerline fore and aft, with it weighted to put odd numbered mounts either forward or aft as we like.


As far as your CLAAs go, until a working autoloaded 15cm gun gets developed, (which will certainly require a turret and more than bit of work), I would go with something smaller if the primary role of those guns is AA. 15cm AA guns were late in development and problematic in execution, historically, so even though the Italians keep trying it (and Germany is working on something similar), it's not likely to work out for several more years.

If what you want is a 15cm gun that has some DP capability, then you have to decide whether you want it weighted a bit more to the AA or to the AS side: the 60 caliber guns will be heavier and have more inertia, making it harder to train and elevate them rapidly, which limits their usefulness as AA weapons as the range gets closer.

The primary roles of the 150mm guns on my CLAA is still AS, but I'd still like them to have some AA capabilities, so probably still going for 150mm/60 for better AP at least in those designs?

Anyways, I managed to get my 150mm gun version slightly faster with the better gun arrangement. Revised version up in previous post.

Much thx to your info and help, Hrolf Hakonson!!

Coming up with two additional versions:

1 beefed up with an extra 150mm gun, another AA version armed with 12 x 100mm DP main guns.

Enter ship name, Siam Large Destroyer laid down 1938

Displacement:
2,829 t light; 3,000 t standard; 3,472 t normal; 3,849 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(519.74 ft / 505.25 ft) x 45.93 ft x (13.78 / 14.68 ft)
(158.42 m / 154.00 m) x 14.00 m x (4.20 / 4.48 m)

Armament:
6 - 5.91" / 150 mm 50.0 cal guns - 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model
3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 2.17" / 55.0 mm 55.0 cal guns - 5.51lbs / 2.50kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 75.0 cal guns - 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 710 lbs / 322 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m torpedoes - 2.402 t each, 19.214 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes
Main DC/AS Mortars
40 - 440.92 lbs / 200.00 kg Depth Charges - 7.874 t total
in Stern depth charge racks

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Conning towers: Forward 1.97" / 50 mm, Aft 0.79" / 20 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 59,861 shp / 44,656 Kw = 36.00 kts
Range 3,800nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 849 tons

Complement:
225 - 293

Cost:
£2.200 million / $8.799 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 224 tons, 6.5%
- Guns: 176 tons, 5.1%
- Weapons: 48 tons, 1.4%
Armour: 40 tons, 1.2%
- Armament: 27 tons, 0.8%
- Conning Towers: 14 tons, 0.4%
Machinery: 1,564 tons, 45.1%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 961 tons, 27.7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 643 tons, 18.5%
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 1.2%
- On freeboard deck: 20 tons
- Above deck: 20 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,101 lbs / 499 Kg = 10.7 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 11.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.395
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.88 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00%, 27.56 ft / 8.40 m, 20.01 ft / 6.10 m
- Forward deck: 20.00%, 20.01 ft / 6.10 m, 20.01 ft / 6.10 m
- Aft deck: 45.00%, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00%, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 16.48 ft / 5.02 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 165.9%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.1%
Waterplane Area: 14,636 Square feet or 1,360 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 86%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 44 lbs/sq ft or 216 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.88
- Overall: 0.53
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room


AA version:


Enter ship name, Siam Large Destroyer laid down 1938

Displacement:
2,814 t light; 3,000 t standard; 3,472 t normal; 3,849 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(519.74 ft / 505.25 ft) x 45.93 ft x (13.78 / 14.68 ft)
(158.42 m / 154.00 m) x 14.00 m x (4.20 / 4.48 m)

Armament:
12 - 3.94" / 100.0 mm 65.0 cal guns - 33.07lbs / 15.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model
6 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.17" / 55.0 mm 55.0 cal guns - 5.51lbs / 2.50kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 75.0 cal guns - 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 445 lbs / 202 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m torpedoes - 2.402 t each, 19.214 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes
Main DC/AS Mortars
40 - 440.92 lbs / 200.00 kg Depth Charges - 7.874 t total
in Stern depth charge racks

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Conning towers: Forward 1.97" / 50 mm, Aft 0.79" / 20 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 62,208 shp / 46,407 Kw = 36.35 kts
Range 3,800nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 849 tons

Complement:
225 - 293

Cost:
£2.176 million / $8.702 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 197 tons, 5.7%
- Guns: 149 tons, 4.3%
- Weapons: 48 tons, 1.4%
Armour: 53 tons, 1.5%
- Armament: 39 tons, 1.1%
- Conning Towers: 14 tons, 0.4%
Machinery: 1,622 tons, 46.7%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 902 tons, 26.0%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 658 tons, 18.9%
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 1.2%
- On freeboard deck: 20 tons
- Above deck: 20 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,049 lbs / 476 Kg = 34.4 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 11.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.27
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.395
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.88 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00%, 27.56 ft / 8.40 m, 20.01 ft / 6.10 m
- Forward deck: 20.00%, 20.01 ft / 6.10 m, 20.01 ft / 6.10 m
- Aft deck: 45.00%, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00%, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 16.48 ft / 5.02 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 168.9%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.1%
Waterplane Area: 14,636 Square feet or 1,360 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 85%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 41 lbs/sq ft or 201 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.80
- Overall: 0.52
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Quoted

Originally posted by gaiasabre11
Well, a little research have shown that the Japanese have a lot of their destroyers of with l:b raio of around 10.5 ~ 11+, while the Americans have a lot of theirs below 10 in l:b ratio.

So far I cannot find anything related to japanese fleet exercise that turned into a disaster due to a major typhoon, but I did find something about TF38 and Typhoon Cobra...

This is funny, you know. Seems like we´re working from completely different data then.

This discussion about l:b ratio is an old one on these boards. As is the extensive use of small block coefficients, transome sterns and other features that powergamers tend to use. :o)

Regarding l:b ratios - at waterline of course - I once did browse Whitleys books on destroyers and light cruisers of WW2 and calculated the ratio for all of them. No American or British DD or CL had a l:b ratio of 11:1 or close to. So about 75% of the worlds DDs and CLs are accounted for. In fact, many of them did not even have a ratio of 10:1. Only very few designs had a ratio above 10,5:1 and those that had where either short range sprinters for mediterranean environment or known to have hull stress and stability issues. I can´t remember a design with a ratio above 11:1, though, but it may have just slipped my memory since then.

Of course you can question Whitley but his data is known to be reliable and compares good enough with other sources. The good thing about his stuff is that they provide a good overview in just two books.

Regarding Japanese ship incidents that may be interesting in this context I recommend to check out data on the 12th of March 1934 and the name TOMOZURU or the 26th of September, the 4th Fleet and names like HATSUYUKI, YUGIRI, AKEBONO, MURAKUMO, USHIO, SHIRAKUMO, AMAGIRI, OBORO, SHIRAYUKI or USUGUMO.

You may also want to check out WHY the Japanese rebuild most of their DD, CL and CA classes quite heavily in the mid- or late-30.

The best source, regarding Japanese cruisers, that you will be able to find is the book "Japanese Cruisers in the Pacific War" written by Eric LaCroix, Linton Wells and Linton Wells II. There you will find extensive data on the design, building and modification of all japanese cruisers. It is generally known as the best source on that matter. Sadly those authors never wrote a similar book about destroyers....