WesWorld

A brief history of Italian Tanks

The first Italian tanks were used in WWI, the first design being a little-known Italian model designed by Captain Lugi Cassali in 1915. This preceeds other allied tanks. However the vehicle was found to be unsuitable for the terrain in northern Italy and the mountain campaign. Only one prototype was produced.

After 1916 with the introduction of other allied vehicles, a few Renault FT-17 light tanks were procured. Larger numbers were not available due to construction difficulties. A few Schneider tractors were also procured, but these were not suitable. The first Italian armoured unit, Sezione Speciale Carri Armati was formed in Verona during 1918 equipped with the FT-17. They played no role in the actual war, but served to train Italian soldiers in the operation of such vehicles. Their limitations were apparent in the large maintenance centre on the base.

The Italian FT-17, produced after the war as the Fiat 3000 featured a more powerful engine and a 37mm L40 gun. They have a crew of 2 and are capable of a maximum speed of 24kph. The armour is able to withstand heavy machine gun fire. About 100 were produced of which 60 remain in service.

Design work had begun on a new heavy tank in 1916, the Fiat 2000. 2 prototypes were produced by the end of the war. This was a large vehicle, comparable in size to British MkV tanks. It was the most advanced tank of the war. The driver was seated at the front and had a viewing hatch that could open when not in action. This was a superior arrangement to periscopes all the time. The largest advantage of the Mk V was the arrangement of the machinery. This was separated from the crew underneath the floor. In the Mk I tank there was not even a firewall to separate the engine from crew. In later marks, the engine was more protected but the crew still had to cope with the hot and noisy atmosphere. The armament was a 65mm gun mounted in a single turret providing a large field of fire, much more so than other tanks with casemates. There were also 7x6.5mm machine guns to provide cover from infantry attack. Mobility was better than the Schneider tanks, with speeds of up to 9kph being attained. The armour was also thicker, being of 15-20mm thickness, mostly inclined at 10-20degrees. 4 pre-production prototypes were produced in 1918 leading on to a production run of 50 vehicles.

No more indigenous Italian tanks have been built up to this point. A few Vickers Mk II tanks were purchased. These have a 47mm L32 gun and are capable of 24kph. However the armour is thin at only 6.5mm thick. The Italian army has made plans to produce the Vickers Mk III tank. This carries the same armament but has thicker armour 9-14mm and 48kph speed. It should serve to augment the aging Fiat 2000 tanks.

There is 1 armoured regiment in the Italian army. It is made up from 40 Fiat 2000 and 60 Fiat 3000 tanks forming a homogenous unit. The remaining vehicles are either testbeds or training vehicles.


Fiat 2000


Fiat 3000


Vickers Mk III

M15/30

Its size is considerably restricted by its need for perfomance in mountainous terrain, the need to cross small bridges and travel on twisty tracks. The 65/17 gun was selected because it is already in service with the Alpini and for the larger HE shell.

It is planned to build over 100 examples with a view to replacing the Fiat 2000 and 3000 vehicles.

Crew 3
Engine 150hp - petrol
Weight 15 tons
Speed 30kph
Armament : 2 x 6.5 MG, 1 x 65mm / 17 gun
Length 16' 2"
Width 7' 6"
Height 7' 3"
Armor 14 - 30mm.

Modello 25/35

A medium tank developed from the chassis of a SPG designed specifically for export to other countries. The chassis is an enlarged a modified version of the M15/30 with the same leaf springs. The vehicle moves to rear transmission to save space. The engine used in the same LC unit developed for the AB.34 armoured car. A 47mm Bohler anti-tank gun is mounted in the turret (2-man)
alongside an 8mm mg. In the forward hull is the hull gunner and driver. The prototype should appear around March 1935 after the SPG type has been tested.

Edit: The 47/32 is interchangeable with the 75/18 howitzer

Length 6 meters Width 2.6 meters Height 2.4 meters
Crew 4 men
Engine 300 horsepower Fuel Capacity 200 gallons internal

Combat Weight 24.6t
Growth Capability (Transmission) 6.2t
Growth Capability (Suspension) 5.4t
Ground Pressure 14.5psi
Power/Weight Ratio 12.2hp/ton
Top Speed 22mph road 12mph rough
Operating Range 168m

Armament: 1 x 47/32 (90rounds) 2 x 8mm mg (3000rounds)
Effective Armour
KE (mm)
Front Hull Armor 80
Side Hull Armor 47
Rear Hull Armor 42
Top Hull Armor 30
Hull Floor Armor 20

KE (mm)
Front Turret Armor 50
Side Turret Armor 50
Rear Turret Armor 30
Top Turret Armor 30

On reflection, something like the historical Autoblinda AB.40/41 should be more useful, and far cheaper to operate.

Weight: 7.5t
Dimensions: 5.2 x 1.92 x 2.4m
Crew: 4
Engine: 1 x 88hp Fiat SPA Abm 1 water cooled V6
Speed: 78kph Range: 400km
Armament: 1 x 13.2mm Scotti, 2 x 7.35mm Gebauer/VGO
Armour: 18mm - 6mm

I had a play around with CAD over the weekend giving me a basic tank shape with sloped armour and a 47mm gun.

Got an T-50 feel to it, I guess no more bolted armor for Italy

I just haven't bothered drawing any rivets yet. Theres a fair amount of detail to add on.

What CAD program did you use?

Well my deeply thought reaction : Cool !

Quoted

Originally posted by Commodore Green
What CAD program did you use?

SolidEdge is our standard one at uni and its free for us to use at home. I need to have a play with it to get better.

I was pretty much following the top one in this picture.

I have no experience of CAD but the drawing indicates a longer hull and the track assembly seems to be higher in the CAD version

Length: 6.48m Width: 3.16m Height: 2.26m
Weight: 27,000kg
Crew: 4 (Driver, Gunner, Loader, Commander)
Engine: 350hp Isotta-Fraschini Asso 300 Petrol
Speed: 38km/h Range: 200km
Power/Weight: 13hp/ton Ground Pressure: 0.75kg/cm2
Armament: 1 x 105/25 with 70 rounds, 1 x 13.2mm Scotti with 1000 rounds, 1 x 8mm Breda with 3000 rounds
Armour: 70mm - 10mm


Given the current interest in tanks I thought this might be the time to post Italy's newest tank design. Throughout the 1930s so far there haven't been any really successful Italian tanks (only really the earlier Fiat 3000), mostly due to reliability problems. The M34 tanks saw service in Argentina and gave reasonable results despite reliability problems. As a result, Italy hasn't properly adopted a tank since the small scale issuing of the M30. Instead a relatively successful Semovente chassis has been built. The performance isn't outstanding but it is reliable and has lead to large numbers being built, especially for foreign countries. It also lead to a turreted version mounting a 47mm gun. Throughout the 1930s a number of prototype vehicles have been built, testing various new ideas, but the Esercito never put any of them into production, preferring to wait until there was a greater need. The rapid arming of countries in Balkans, coupled with rearmament in other European countries, lead matters to a head and resulted in a proper tank design being comissioned for introduction in the late 1930s.

The tank was built around the existing engine and transmission, with slight improvements increasing output by 50hp. The final drive was also reinforced to cope with the extra vehicle weight. For protection, the designers followed the trend of sloped armour plates apart from the turret which gave too many manufacturing problems. A cast turret was considered, but there was insufficient manufacturing experience available. Protection was focused on the frontal arcs, with armour grade steel being laid over a mild steel body to try and eliminate welding problems. The armament was to consist of the 105/25 howitzer, similar to that used in artillery regiments. Earlier designs had used the 75/18 howitzer but this was thought to have insufficient armour penetration against newer designs. The 105/25 gave good performance in the support role and was good enough for most armoured threats at the time. A number of examples were also trialled with the 75/46 gun, derived from the anti-aircraft weapon, which promised greater performance against tanks. The resulting vehicle was reliable in service and compared well with it's contemporaries. A redesign in the early 1940s with increased armour and a new engine gave a new lease of life.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral


Length: 6.48m Width: 3.16m Height: 2.26m
Weight: 27,000kg
Crew: 4 (Driver, Gunner, Loader, Commander)
Engine: 350hp Isotta-Fraschini Asso 300 Petrol
Speed: 38km/h Range: 200km
Power/Weight: 13hp/ton Ground Pressure: 0.75kg/cm2
Armament: 1 x 105/25 with 70 rounds, 1 x 13.2mm Scotti with 1000 rounds, 1 x 8mm Breda with 3000 rounds
Armour: 70mm - 10mm


Given the current interest in tanks I thought this might be the time to post Italy's newest tank design. Throughout the 1930s so far there haven't been any really successful Italian tanks (only really the earlier Fiat 3000), mostly due to reliability problems. The M34 tanks saw service in Argentina and gave reasonable results despite reliability problems. As a result, Italy hasn't properly adopted a tank since the small scale issuing of the M30. Instead a relatively successful Semovente chassis has been built. The performance isn't outstanding but it is reliable and has lead to large numbers being built, especially for foreign countries. It also lead to a turreted version mounting a 47mm gun. Throughout the 1930s a number of prototype vehicles have been built, testing various new ideas, but the Esercito never put any of them into production, preferring to wait until there was a greater need. The rapid arming of countries in Balkans, coupled with rearmament in other European countries, lead matters to a head and resulted in a proper tank design being comissioned for introduction in the late 1930s.

The tank was built around the existing engine and transmission, with slight improvements increasing output by 50hp. The final drive was also reinforced to cope with the extra vehicle weight. For protection, the designers followed the trend of sloped armour plates apart from the turret which gave too many manufacturing problems. A cast turret was considered, but there was insufficient manufacturing experience available. Protection was focused on the frontal arcs, with armour grade steel being laid over a mild steel body to try and eliminate welding problems. The armament was to consist of the 105/25 howitzer, similar to that used in artillery regiments. Earlier designs had used the 75/18 howitzer but this was thought to have insufficient armour penetration against newer designs. The 105/25 gave good performance in the support role and was good enough for most armoured threats at the time. A number of examples were also trialled with the 75/46 gun, derived from the anti-aircraft weapon, which promised greater performance against tanks. The resulting vehicle was reliable in service and compared well with it's contemporaries. A redesign in the early 1940s with increased armour and a new engine gave a new lease of life.

First, what year it will enter service?

Second, IMO a little too light, but not by much. Maybe three to four tons more.

Quoted

First, what year it will enter service? Second, IMO a little too light, but not by much. Maybe three to four tons more.

Probably a few examples in 1938.

The closest historical vehicles are the T20/T23 series and the T-44. This has less armour and engine with consequent reduction in weight. 27-28tons seems reasonable.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral

Quoted

First, what year it will enter service? Second, IMO a little too light, but not by much. Maybe three to four tons more.

Probably a few examples in 1938.

The closest historical vehicles are the T20/T23 series and the T-44. This has less armour and engine with consequent reduction in weight. 27-28tons seems reasonable.

1938 is more than five years if we go with the T-44. IMO should be only prototypes with production in 1939 at the earliest?

But I have no other issue with the vehicle, except maybe too light but if everyone is ok with it I'm okay with it.

Quoted

1938 is more than five years if we go with the T-44. IMO should be only prototypes with production in 1939 at the earliest?

But it _isn't_ the T-44. That just provides a benchmark for something a similar size and shape. If it had a bigger engine, a high velocity large calibre gun and a lot more armour you've have more of a point. It's pretty similar to the AT-36 and the Panzer IV with the 75/48 when it appears...

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral

Quoted

1938 is more than five years if we go with the T-44. IMO should be only prototypes with production in 1939 at the earliest?

But it _isn't_ the T-44. That just provides a benchmark for something a similar size and shape. If it had a bigger engine, a high velocity large calibre gun and a lot more armour you've have more of a point. It's pretty similar to the AT-36 and the Panzer IV with the 75/48 when it appears...

I will not fight it. Just I think if using the T-44 as a template the date production date should be pushed back a little bit, like a year.

So no P40 or P43 in WW?

The two spots I see as problematic are the overall height (2,26m isn't very tall, leaving not a lot of room in the turret or the hull) and the 4 man crew. The problem with the 4 man crew is simply that that means the commander is going to be busy fiddling with the radio when he should be commanding the tank and looking for targets. At this period, I think 5 men is the optimal size for a medium tank's crew.

The 75/46 version seems the most realistic IMO and would fit the weight stats.

Picture wise 2 large headlights would likely go a long way towards making her look more period like. Perhaps a Panther like rearward angle to her hull aft?