WesWorld

Here is the other ship I mentioned. A heavy battleship to bolster the Pacific fleet. I am planning on laying her down probably as early as Q4/1937, but it would require the use of an Ally's slip.


Pic was a quick and dirty draft using a couple of Brock's drawings, which are based on drawings by Wes. It is not accurate.


Chapultepec, Mexico Battleship laid down 1938

Displacement:
32,201 t light; 33,950 t standard; 37,390 t normal; 40,143 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
720.00 ft / 720.00 ft x 97.00 ft x 34.70 ft (normal load)
219.46 m / 219.46 m x 29.57 m x 10.58 m

Armament:
6 - 17.00" / 432 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,500.00lbs / 1,133.98kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (2x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 17,097 lbs / 7,755 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 103

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm

- Armour deck: 5.00" / 127 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 123,370 shp / 92,034 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 14,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,193 tons

Complement:
1,343 - 1,747

Cost:
£18.982 million / $75.927 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,104 tons, 5.6 %
Armour: 10,840 tons, 29.0 %
- Belts: 3,154 tons, 8.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 488 tons, 1.3 %
- Armament: 2,283 tons, 6.1 %
- Armour Deck: 4,649 tons, 12.4 %
- Conning Tower: 265 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 3,378 tons, 9.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,709 tons, 42.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,189 tons, 13.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 170 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
52,129 lbs / 23,645 Kg = 21.2 x 17.0 " / 432 mm shells or 6.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.92
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.540
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.42 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 31.23 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 34.00 ft / 10.36 m
- Forecastle (35 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Mid (50 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 25.53 ft / 7.78 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175.8 %
Waterplane Area: 50,259 Square feet or 4,669 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 210 lbs/sq ft or 1,027 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.09
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

This wwill be built to operate together with the light battleship?

No, the light BB is for the Caribbean, this one is for the Pacific. This one is designed to fight at long ranges against lone opponents, hence the 17" guns. The other one is designed to fight at short ranges against multiple opponents, hence its mixed armament.

I'd put on an aft citadel, honestly, or at least find some raised rangefinders. Otherwise they're all located in the main tower and their loss will be felt rather hard.

Who's 17" guns are you planning to use?

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
Here is the other ship I mentioned. A heavy battleship to bolster the Pacific fleet. I am planning on laying her down probably as early as Q4/1937, but it would require the use of an Ally's slip.


Pic was a quick and dirty draft using a couple of Brock's drawings. It is not accurate.

Thanx for the recognition of my own drawing elements!

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Thanx for the recognition of my own drawing elements!

True. All of the elements of my drawings, with maybe one or two small exceptions, are all from Wes's drawings. You need to credit him, not me, if you please.

Sorry, the drawing was a last minute thing. I just slapped Constitucion's superstructure on the Almirante. So I forgot to credit Wes.

Like I said the drawing is very rough. I'll eventually add more rangefinders, the secondaries, and other details to it.

Mexico is hoping to use the Chilean 17" guns, maybe even have the ship built in Chile.

Any thoughts on the ship itself?

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
Sorry, the drawing was a last minute thing. I just slapped Constitucion's superstructure on the Almirante. So I forgot to credit Wes.

Like I said the drawing is very rough. I'll eventually add more rangefinders, the secondaries, and other details to it.

If you'd like, I can fix up a better drawing with correct secondary and tertiary guns.

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
Mexico is hoping to use the Chilean 17" guns, maybe even have the ship built in Chile.

As long as we can have it launched by Q4/1939, I've got a spare slip open. I'm sure we could come to a suitably beneficial deal.

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
Any thoughts on the ship itself?

I'd say it meets most if not all of my major design criteria. The one thing which I wouldn't do is make a split battery of 6" and 5" DP; but that's not a design-killing issue, more a personal taste thing.

Oh, and your 47mm mounts are breech-loaders, I suspect that's wrong.

Quoted

If you'd like, I can fix up a better drawing with correct secondary and tertiary guns.

That would be most welcome.

Quoted

As long as we can have it launched by Q4/1939, I've got a spare slip open. I'm sure we could come to a suitably beneficial deal.

That could be cutting it close but can be done. By suitably beneficial deal you mean no payments, right? After all the Chileans used the Villa look without paying...

Quoted

I'd say it meets most if not all of my major design criteria. The one thing which I wouldn't do is make a split battery of 6" and 5" DP; but that's not a design-killing issue, more a personal taste thing.

Oh, and your 47mm mounts are breech-loaders, I suspect that's wrong.

I've thought about it and it just doesn't feel right with just 5" guns. It would be either undergunned, or have a ridiculous AA armament.

Also half the 6" inchers are in DP mounts and the 5"s are in AA mounts. Have to fix that, and possibly add another pair of 5" turrets.

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox

Quoted

If you'd like, I can fix up a better drawing with correct secondary and tertiary guns.

That would be most welcome.

Quoted

As long as we can have it launched by Q4/1939, I've got a spare slip open. I'm sure we could come to a suitably beneficial deal.

That could be cutting it close but can be done. By suitably beneficial deal you mean no payments, right? After all the Chileans used the Villa look without paying...

Heh, you could also say the Mexicans borrowed the Capitan Oyama look for the Villa. It's true that the Villa did inspire some of the Constitucion styling, but I was working just as much off the drawings of the Oyama, Almirante Gideon, and the Nevado Ojos del Salado.

But, seeing as this contract would be the first battleship built in a Chilean yard, and the first major foreign warship order from a Chilean yard, ASMAR can indeed make a tempting offer. Expect a PM.

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
Sorry, the drawing was a last minute thing. I just slapped Constitucion's superstructure on the Almirante. So I forgot to credit Wes.

hehehe.... And don´t forget Wes still has to credit me as he´s still using some of my templates albeit slightly modified. ;o)

(Like I still use a plane template originally ripped from one of Wes´ templates....)

Seriously, some of us are using the same scale and so templates are used time and again. No need for credits, methinks.

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox

Quoted

I'd say it meets most if not all of my major design criteria. The one thing which I wouldn't do is make a split battery of 6" and 5" DP; but that's not a design-killing issue, more a personal taste thing.

Oh, and your 47mm mounts are breech-loaders, I suspect that's wrong.

I've thought about it and it just doesn't feel right with just 5" guns. It would be either undergunned, or have a ridiculous AA armament.

Also half the 6" inchers are in DP mounts and the 5"s are in AA mounts. Have to fix that, and possibly add another pair of 5" turrets.

I'd honestly reccomend a heavy 5" DP battery; Mexico can easily aquire 5"/38 mounts from the US.
Something to keep in mind is your two allies have gone with a unified DP battery of 20 guns on it's recent ships (USN Montana, RCN Renown rebuilds and Excelsiors).

If you still want a mixed battery for some Anti-Surface punch, I'd simplify it with a non-DP battery for the heavier guns. Canada makes no secret that it's non-automated 5.5" mounts are not as effective in the AA role as hoped; anything larger is regarded as folly.

Canada might be persuaded to supply some 5.5" mounts, tho.

Canada would offer the services of a drydock, but unfortunately none large enough will be availible for the next year or so.

Edit:

And if we're on an image-credit bender...I put together the original Oyama sketch, not Wes I borrowed some parts of one of his BB towers because Ith wanted it to have Lantean design elements, tho.

Quoted

Originally posted by ShinRa_Inc
And if we're on an image-credit bender...I put together the original Oyama sketch, not Wes I borrowed some parts of one of his BB towers because Ith wanted it to have Lantean design elements, tho.

I am aware. I just redrew the Oyamas to match the style of all the other ships.


[SIZE=1]Image by wes/thesmilingassassin and heavily modified by me, based off a drawing by ShinRa.[/SIZE]

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
hehehe.... And don´t forget Wes still has to credit me as he´s still using some of my templates albeit slightly modified. ;o)

More like highly modified! I think all I use now is the barrels (which have been stretched and shrunk so many times) and the range finder hoods on the side view.

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
(Like I still use a plane template originally ripped from one of Wes´ templates....)

I beleive we had a breif discussion on which parts we would trade, I've since used a different plane but I do like your stern cranes! Brock has his own bow's (and aircraft it seems).

Most of the Turkish stuff is similar to SAE stuff because...well it IS SAE stuff!

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Brock has his own bow's (and aircraft it seems).

The clipper bow I use is one of the things I've drawn myself. I think I've done the Chilean clipper bow, the Chilean tripod masts, the Bulgarian streamlined bridge, and the Libertad's Skyline Funnel as my own developed drawings.

The aircraft on the Almirante drawing is just one of Wes's scout planes with a few tweaks to look more like a modern monoplane.

An alternative option if the numbers ($$$) for the first one don't work out. Uses US 16" guns with (super?)heavy shells.

Thoughts? Which design would be better?


Chapultepec, Mexico Battleship laid down 1938

Displacement:
28,742 t light; 30,183 t standard; 33,520 t normal; 36,190 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
710.00 ft / 710.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 34.00 ft (normal load)
216.41 m / 216.41 m x 27.43 m x 10.36 m

Armament:
6 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (2x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6 mounts), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
16 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 13,589 lbs / 6,164 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm

- Armour deck: 5.00" / 127 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 115,740 shp / 86,342 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 14,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,007 tons

Complement:
1,238 - 1,610

Cost:
£16.213 million / $64.851 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,699 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 10,052 tons, 30.0 %
- Belts: 3,009 tons, 9.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 466 tons, 1.4 %
- Armament: 2,077 tons, 6.2 %
- Armour Deck: 4,254 tons, 12.7 %
- Conning Tower: 246 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 3,169 tons, 9.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,652 tons, 40.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,778 tons, 14.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 170 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
48,745 lbs / 22,110 Kg = 23.8 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 6.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.96
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.24

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.540
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.89 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 34.00 ft / 10.36 m
- Forecastle (35 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Mid (50 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 25.53 ft / 7.78 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 174.5 %
Waterplane Area: 45,985 Square feet or 4,272 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 194 lbs/sq ft or 946 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.05
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Thoughts? Anyone?

My intent with Richelieu is for high-speed approach at oblique angles. For this, turret/conning tower armor is more important than belt armor. I'd suggest dropping the belt to ~250mm and putting it on the turrets/barbettes, if you intend the same tactic.

As she will be built. I prefer the 17" gunned version but economics dictate that I choose the cheaper version.

Brock, you still up for drawing her?


Chapultepec, Mexico Battleship laid down 1937

Displacement:
28,734 t light; 30,175 t standard; 33,520 t normal; 36,196 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
710.00 ft / 710.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 34.00 ft (normal load)
216.41 m / 216.41 m x 27.43 m x 10.36 m

Armament:
6 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (2x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (8x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1937 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
16 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 13,589 lbs / 6,164 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.50" / 38 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm

- Armour deck: 5.00" / 127 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 115,740 shp / 86,342 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 14,400nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,021 tons

Complement:
1,238 - 1,610

Cost:
£15.718 million / $62.872 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,699 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 10,128 tons, 30.2 %
- Belts: 3,009 tons, 9.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 466 tons, 1.4 %
- Armament: 2,152 tons, 6.4 %
- Armour Deck: 4,254 tons, 12.7 %
- Conning Tower: 246 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 3,208 tons, 9.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,530 tons, 40.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,786 tons, 14.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 170 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
47,189 lbs / 21,404 Kg = 23.0 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 6.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.92
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.26

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.540
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.89 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 33.00 ft / 10.06 m
- Forecastle (50 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Mid (50 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 25.75 ft / 7.85 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 166.3 %
Waterplane Area: 45,985 Square feet or 4,272 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 192 lbs/sq ft or 936 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.04
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

I can go back and draw it.