WesWorld

dang that must've happened when i tried to increse the lenght of the ship. Must've missed the BC and L/B in the meantime. The issue with the L/B happens in fact with all of them.

Reworked all of them. The changes mostly are about lowering the draught, cutting lenght, adding freeboard, and thinning the ends belt to 30mm. BCs are around 0.440-ish now.

Turns out I achieved a save in weight with those changes too. Something always welcome for my very limited resource budget

9x6'' version:

Thanom Sarasin, Siamese Light Cruiser laid down 1937

Displacement:
4.914 t light; 5.104 t standard; 5.520 t normal; 5.852 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
554,30 ft / 539,70 ft x 49,21 ft x 16,57 ft (normal load)
168,95 m / 164,50 m x 15,00 m x 5,05 m

Armament:
9 - 5,98" / 152 mm guns (3x3 guns), 107,15lbs / 48,60kg shells, 1925 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 3,17lbs / 1,44kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1.008 lbs / 457 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 140
8 - 23,6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4,13" / 105 mm 344,49 ft / 105,00 m 10,17 ft / 3,10 m
Ends: 1,18" / 30 mm 195,21 ft / 59,50 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4,13" / 105 mm 2,17" / 55 mm 3,15" / 80 mm
2nd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 0,98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 1,97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 47.835 shp / 35.685 Kw = 31,50 kts
Range 5.000nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 747 tons

Complement:
319 - 416

Cost:
£2,528 million / $10,111 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 126 tons, 2,3 %
Armour: 1.209 tons, 21,9 %
- Belts: 682 tons, 12,4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 196 tons, 3,5 %
- Armour Deck: 318 tons, 5,8 %
- Conning Tower: 13 tons, 0,2 %
Machinery: 1.326 tons, 24,0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.153 tons, 39,0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 606 tons, 11,0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 1,8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6.217 lbs / 2.820 Kg = 58,0 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 1,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
Metacentric height 2,2 ft / 0,7 m
Roll period: 13,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,43
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,439
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,97 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,52 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24,28 ft / 7,40 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Mid (45 %): 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Quarterdeck (25 %): 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Stern: 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Average freeboard: 15,62 ft / 4,76 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97,8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 110,9 %
Waterplane Area: 17.440 Square feet or 1.620 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 79 lbs/sq ft or 385 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,89
- Longitudinal: 1,00
- Overall: 0,90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate


----------------------------------------------------------

8x6'' version:

Thanom Sarasin, Siamese Light Cruiser laid down 1937

Displacement:
4.852 t light; 5.063 t standard; 5.476 t normal; 5.807 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
555,52 ft / 539,70 ft x 49,21 ft x 16,57 ft (normal load)
169,32 m / 164,50 m x 15,00 m x 5,05 m

Armament:
8 - 5,98" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 104,72lbs / 47,50kg shells, 1934 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 3,17lbs / 1,44kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 882 lbs / 400 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
8 - 23,6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4,13" / 105 mm 337,93 ft / 103,00 m 10,17 ft / 3,10 m
Ends: 1,18" / 30 mm 201,77 ft / 61,50 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4,13" / 105 mm 2,17" / 55 mm 3,15" / 80 mm
2nd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 0,98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 1,97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 47.521 shp / 35.450 Kw = 31,50 kts
Range 5.000nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 744 tons

Complement:
317 - 413

Cost:
£2,448 million / $9,793 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 113 tons, 2,1 %
Armour: 1.218 tons, 22,2 %
- Belts: 675 tons, 12,3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 213 tons, 3,9 %
- Armour Deck: 317 tons, 5,8 %
- Conning Tower: 13 tons, 0,2 %
Machinery: 1.317 tons, 24,1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.105 tons, 38,4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 624 tons, 11,4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 1,8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6.185 lbs / 2.806 Kg = 57,7 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 1,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
Metacentric height 2,1 ft / 0,7 m
Roll period: 14,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,40
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,436
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,97 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,53 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26,90 ft / 8,20 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Mid (50 %): 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Quarterdeck (25 %): 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Stern: 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Average freeboard: 15,68 ft / 4,78 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96,8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 111,2 %
Waterplane Area: 17.393 Square feet or 1.616 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 77 lbs/sq ft or 377 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,89
- Longitudinal: 0,98
- Overall: 0,90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

------------------------------------------

6x6'' version:

Thanom Sarasin, Siamese Light Cruiser laid down 1937

Displacement:
4.880 t light; 5.067 t standard; 5.480 t normal; 5.811 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
554,07 ft / 539,70 ft x 49,21 ft x 16,40 ft (normal load)
168,88 m / 164,50 m x 15,00 m x 5,00 m

Armament:
6 - 5,98" / 152 mm guns (3x2 guns), 104,72lbs / 47,50kg shells, 1934 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 3,17lbs / 1,44kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 672 lbs / 305 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
8 - 23,6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4,13" / 105 mm 351,05 ft / 107,00 m 10,17 ft / 3,10 m
Ends: 1,18" / 30 mm 188,65 ft / 57,50 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4,13" / 105 mm 2,17" / 55 mm 3,15" / 80 mm
2nd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 0,98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 1,97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 52.190 shp / 38.934 Kw = 32,25 kts
Range 5.000nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 744 tons

Complement:
317 - 413

Cost:
£2,429 million / $9,718 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 86 tons, 1,6 %
Armour: 1.182 tons, 21,6 %
- Belts: 689 tons, 12,6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 162 tons, 3,0 %
- Armour Deck: 318 tons, 5,8 %
- Conning Tower: 13 tons, 0,2 %
Machinery: 1.447 tons, 26,4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.066 tons, 37,7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 600 tons, 11,0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 1,8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6.276 lbs / 2.847 Kg = 58,6 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 1,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,18
Metacentric height 2,3 ft / 0,7 m
Roll period: 13,5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,29
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,440
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,97 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,52 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23,79 ft / 7,25 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 15,09 ft / 4,60 m
- Mid (45 %): 15,09 ft / 4,60 m
- Quarterdeck (25 %): 15,09 ft / 4,60 m
- Stern: 15,09 ft / 4,60 m
- Average freeboard: 16,14 ft / 4,92 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100,5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116,7 %
Waterplane Area: 17.457 Square feet or 1.622 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 75 lbs/sq ft or 367 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,89
- Longitudinal: 1,01
- Overall: 0,90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

as for slips to build the ships in, I already mentioned in my first post that I'd have to "hire" some foreign slips to build most of this ships. Being a member of AEGIS, I guess I'll find someone with free slips who can do Siam this little favor

I had a quick play around with my design for an Italian large destroyer. I took some equipment out and lowered the seakeeping requirement a bit to put some more armour on it. It still doesn't have a lot but i'm not sure its worth having thick plates on such a small ship. It gives a nice little ship which isn't too expensive.

Italy has no real problems supplying weapons, its just availability of limited production items that may be an issue.


Destroyer laid down 1937

Displacement:
4,182 t light; 4,495 t standard; 5,312 t normal; 5,966 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(508.10 ft / 492.13 ft) x 49.21 ft x (17.06 / 18.49 ft)
(154.87 m / 150.00 m) x 15.00 m x (5.20 / 5.63 m)

Armament:
6 - 5.98" / 152 mm 53.0 cal guns - 99.21lbs / 45.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Dual Purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1937 Model
3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
24 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 3.04lbs / 1.38kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1937 Model
6 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
10 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 77.0 cal guns - 0.54lbs / 0.24kg shells, 4,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1937 Model
10 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 674 lbs / 306 kg
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m torpedoes - 1.907 t each, 15.253 t total
In 4 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.76" / 70 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 0.98" / 25 mm For and Aft decks

- Conning towers: Forward 2.76" / 70 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 60,000 shp / 44,760 Kw = 33.22 kts
Range 5,000nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,470 tons

Complement:
310 - 404

Cost:
£2.512 million / $10.047 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 341 tons, 6.4 %
- Guns: 326 tons, 6.1 %
- Torpedoes: 15 tons, 0.3 %
Armour: 690 tons, 13.0 %
- Belts: 303 tons, 5.7 %
- Armament: 129 tons, 2.4 %
- Armour Deck: 240 tons, 4.5 %
- Conning Tower: 18 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,663 tons, 31.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,468 tons, 27.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,131 tons, 21.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 0.4 %
- Hull below water: 10 tons
- On freeboard deck: 10 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
4,022 lbs / 1,824 Kg = 37.5 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 12.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.28
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.450 / 0.466
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.47 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 21.98 ft / 6.70 m, 18.70 ft / 5.70 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 18.70 ft / 5.70 m, 17.06 ft / 5.20 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 17.06 ft / 5.20 m, 17.06 ft / 5.20 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 17.06 ft / 5.20 m, 17.06 ft / 5.20 m
- Average freeboard: 17.90 ft / 5.45 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 118.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 166.8 %
Waterplane Area: 16,047 Square feet or 1,491 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 63 lbs/sq ft or 307 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.71
- Longitudinal: 1.37
- Overall: 0.76
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

10t = depth charges
10t = D2 sonar

On the cruisers, I'm not sure it makes sense to have 105mm belts and 25mm decks, that seems a bit unbalanced to me, especially given that the South American hostilities have shown that aircraft are a threat to ships (how much of one is certainly debateable, of course). Also, the latter two of the designs don't cover the magazines and engines entirely with the main belt. The end belts are an interesting addition, but I'm not sure 30mm is enough to be very useful, I'd probably ditch it and use the weight for more deck armor and belt coverage.

Also on the cruisers, is the lack of any heavy AA (except for the limited DP capabilities of the Italian twin 6" guns) wise? I'd be inclined to install at least a few medium AA guns myself (possibly the Dutch 75mm, or other available weapons).


On the destroyers, do you NEED those 2 meters of length? Or could you shave them off and get something you can build at home as well as in foreign slips/docks? Judging by the German Z-250s and the US Truxtuns, I doubt you need the extra length that badly…..

It's actually a neat design. And gave me some ideas to work in. With 6 main guns I find her with a too light punch...but with some work, fiddling here and there, I was able to put eight 152mm guns in a slightly lighter ship.

The base point here is that you have a point about the belts. I wanted to give her a reasonable protection against 6 inch fire, but that protection would be only needed if fighting another light cruiser. And given the design size,displacement and guns, it already is at a disadvantage in such an engagement.

So, I gave up on the four inch belt and reduced deck armor a bit aswell. The design now has a 55mm main belt (tapering to 30mm at the ends), enough to offer some protection against DD fire and to keep splinters off the ship (which is the reason why the end belts are there). Turret faces are still 105mm.

So, here is:

Thanom Sarasin, Siamese Light Cruiser laid down 1937

Displacement:
3.961 t light; 4.187 t standard; 4.600 t normal; 4.930 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
480,33 ft / 465,88 ft x 45,93 ft x 17,06 ft (normal load)
146,40 m / 142,00 m x 14,00 m x 5,20 m

Armament:
8 - 5,98" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 104,72lbs / 47,50kg shells, 1934 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
24 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm guns (6x4 guns), 3,17lbs / 1,44kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
10 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (5x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1937 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 919 lbs / 417 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
8 - 23,6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2,17" / 55 mm 380,58 ft / 116,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
Ends: 1,18" / 30 mm 85,30 ft / 26,00 m 9,02 ft / 2,75 m
Main Belt covers 126 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4,13" / 105 mm 1,97" / 50 mm 2,17" / 55 mm
2nd: 0,39" / 10 mm - -
3rd: 0,39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 0,79" / 20 mm, Conning tower: 1,97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 52.665 shp / 39.288 Kw = 32,75 kts
Range 5.700nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 743 tons

Complement:
279 - 363

Cost:
£2,407 million / $9,628 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 117 tons, 2,5 %
Armour: 755 tons, 16,4 %
- Belts: 359 tons, 7,8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 180 tons, 3,9 %
- Armour Deck: 205 tons, 4,5 %
- Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0,3 %
Machinery: 1.458 tons, 31,7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1.581 tons, 34,4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 639 tons, 13,9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1,1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2.824 lbs / 1.281 Kg = 26,4 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 0,8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
Metacentric height 1,9 ft / 0,6 m
Roll period: 14,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,441
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,14 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24,79 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23,95 ft / 7,30 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Mid (45 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Quarterdeck (25 %): 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Stern: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Average freeboard: 17,31 ft / 5,28 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 124,9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106,2 %
Waterplane Area: 14.074 Square feet or 1.308 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 64 lbs/sq ft or 313 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,69
- Longitudinal: 1,47
- Overall: 0,75
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

I don't think a 6" DP mount is doable at the moment without facing serious problems. Without proximity-fused shells - I believe that's a 1942 invention which it seems we're bound to get earlier - 6" DP guns are a wasted effort. A triple DP mount just makes my skin crawl, and not in a "Must buy it for myself" kind of way.

It seems likely none of my countries will be using DP 6". Too much trouble for too little benefit, IMHO, especially without proximity fused shells.

I have doubts about the efficiency of a 6'' DP mount too, not that much because no proximity shells (well AAA fire was still effective without them) but because shell weight and rate of fire.

The point of putting those weapons on the design is that, well, Siam needs to get those mounts somewhere (I doubt there's an indigenous industry which can design a duple or triple 6'' mount just out of the blue), and AEGIS is the place to look first. From the CL mounts within AEGIS ships, I found the Italian and iberian as the most adequate for the ship. The Iberian triples. BTW, are not DP .

The Italian guns are duals, are of the right caliber, and are used by a siamese ally. The DP attribute it's just a plus. They may be not that great in AAA role, but they still are 6 inchers, and thus good guns for a CL in a pure anti-ship role

*Nods*

Chile's looking at new cruiser and destroyer designs too, at the moment. I'm ascribing to Hood's division-of-cruiser-labour scheme, whereby I build two sets of CLs: one serving like the late Town-class cruisers, the second serving in the same niche as a Dido. The smaller cruisers are mass-produced, meant to scout for the fleet, lead DD squadrons, escort convoys and carriers... etc. The bigger cruisers are thugs capable of dishing out a beating on anything their smaller siblings find, and well-armoured enough to take a reply. They're going to be backed more distantly by the 8" and 10" cruisers.

I'm interested in watching what Siam does since Ireland has the same production per year. Ultimately though, my fleet goals are going to look dramatically different due to the defense situation...

These light cruisers are perfect for scouting and surprise torpedo attacks (at least if your enemy doesn't have radar) but can't take punishment. As super DDs they look good and with 6in guns could pose a dangerous threat to a bigger, similarly armed cruiser.

I feel trying to get four twins on 142m will make for a cramped ship. I like the 9x6in design the most. Seems to offer all-round potential for low cost. Rate of fire is an issue too if you plan to tackle destroyers which are harder to hit. Italian gun technology might improve matters but somehow I think politically it might not want its latest guns in Siamese hands. someday they might fall into the hands of another power/ country.

Vickers offers this export design based on the Scylla but with thicker belt armour and AEGIS light AA guns. Its bigger but provides much more capabilty than the smaller cruisers.

Vickers Export Cruiser, Great Britain Light Cruiser laid down 1937

Displacement:
6,575 t light; 6,869 t standard; 7,359 t normal; 7,751 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
556.65 ft / 545.00 ft x 56.60 ft x 16.60 ft (normal load)
169.67 m / 166.12 m x 17.25 m x 5.06 m

Armament:
9 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (3x3 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 3.70" / 94.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 25.33lbs / 11.49kg shells, 1933 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft
16 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 1,229 lbs / 558 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
8 - 24.5" / 622.3 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 295.00 ft / 89.92 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 83 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 50,000 shp / 37,300 Kw = 30.17 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 883 tons

Complement:
396 - 516

Cost:
£3.017 million / $12.070 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 154 tons, 2.1 %
Armour: 1,501 tons, 20.4 %
- Belts: 508 tons, 6.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 184 tons, 2.5 %
- Armour Deck: 793 tons, 10.8 %
- Conning Tower: 16 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,386 tons, 18.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,415 tons, 46.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 784 tons, 10.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,075 lbs / 6,838 Kg = 139.6 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 13.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.68

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.503
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.71 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 30
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Mid (75 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 22.81 ft / 6.95 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 181.8 %
Waterplane Area: 21,433 Square feet or 1,991 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 131 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 93 lbs/sq ft or 453 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.41
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Misc weight includes:
Provision for two aircraft
6 reload torpedoes and handling gear


White's can offer this light super DDL based on the Cathedral Class scout cruiser trading armour for speed.
White's Export Cruiser, Great Britain Scout Cruiser laid down 1937

Displacement:
2,363 t light; 2,474 t standard; 2,847 t normal; 3,146 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
409.10 ft / 400.00 ft x 36.50 ft x 15.00 ft (normal load)
124.69 m / 121.92 m x 11.13 m x 4.57 m

Armament:
8 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (4x2 guns), 45.00lbs / 20.41kg shells, 1935 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns (1x4 guns), 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 375 lbs / 170 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 50,000 shp / 37,300 Kw = 34.18 kts
Range 6,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 672 tons

Complement:
194 - 253

Cost:
£1.672 million / $6.689 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 47 tons, 1.7 %
Armour: 17 tons, 0.6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 17 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,315 tons, 46.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 934 tons, 32.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 484 tons, 17.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,109 lbs / 503 Kg = 24.3 x 4.5 " / 114 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.35
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 11.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.44

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.455
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.96 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.79 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.00 ft / 3.35 m (20.00 ft / 6.10 m before break)
- Stern: 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
- Average freeboard: 19.46 ft / 5.93 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 164.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 101.4 %
Waterplane Area: 9,715 Square feet or 903 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 41 lbs/sq ft or 199 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 3.39
- Overall: 0.61
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily



Misc weight includes:
24 DCs (two racks and two throwers)
8 torpedoes and handling gear (no reloads)
15 tons growth

Another possibility, if Siam were looking for slightly larger vessels like the Vickers design above, would be the Ankara class cruisers that Germany designed for Turkey (and that now Bulgaria has built as well). Replacing the German 15cm guns with Danish 6" guns and the 8.8cm guns with Dutch 7.5cm weapons would be easily accomplished, and the German light battery could be replaced with Danish 3.7cm and 2cm weapons as those are broadly similar. See here http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?threadid=5606&sid= for details, but she carries 9 15cm guns, 10 8.8cm guns, plus light weapons and 16 533mm torpedo tubes.

Well Siam certainly thanks both Germany and the UK for their proposals but here I'm facing a situation of having to go with what I can build/buy rather than what I'd want to build. At 2000tons per quarter, Siam produces too little to buy those ships and some destroyers to go with them too.

Taking the Vickers model, 6500 tons light (some 60% over the 4000t of the siamese design), for instance. I'd need 13000 tons to build two of those. 18x 6'' guns.

For 8000 tons I get 16x6'' in two ships. If I invest 12000 tons, I'd get 24 guns in three ships, in a noticeably faster ship aswell, and save 1000 tons.

By investing a bit less than 16000 tons (two full years' siamese production), I'd can get two of those light cruisers (16x6'') and four of the destroyers I included in this same thread (and which I plan to reduce in size anyway). If the CLs are to be 6500 tonners, I wouldn't be able to near that kind of production.


As I said is a matter of need mixed with ability. Siam desperately needs some light ships faster than 30 knots, but has the ability to build only really small ships due to lack of industrial production. In this particular instance, I think it's better to build smaller ships rather than more capable, bigger ones.

certainly they won't be able to take too much damage given their small size, but you can't have it all.

Destroyers and submarines are probably some of the best bets. Especially the submarines, though they'll need to be relatively small given the shallow waters. Something like Surcouf might be interesting though. It'd give good fire support against any enemy landings.