WesWorld

I'm looking at the Siamese fleet OOB and of course it lacks a lot of things. But where I find the navy is most lacking is in light, fast ships. Currently Siam has a handful of old 650ton DDs which are little more than hopelessly outdated torpedo boats, a handful of ex-american destroyers, and 12 small destroyers trasnferred from AEGIS members.

None of them has a speed over 30 knots, which is really horrible for a destroyer fleet.

The light cruiser department is almost as bad, all Siam has got is a CL class which would've been obsolete by 1920.

So, my first priority will be to bring at least a DD squadron and a couple decent CLs into service. Given the low output of siam's industry, this will take some time. And given the lack of proper building shipyards, most of them will have to be ordered off foreign shipyards.

I'm counting on iberia and Italy to supply engines and weapons. I've used iberian and italian guns in the designs. Of course I'll have to negotiate with them for a sale agreement, but given the good relations between both nations and Siam, I guess there will be no problem.

I have one sketch for the DD, and three different for the CLs...and I want a bit of feedback

First, the DD, I'll post the CLs later.


Phra Ruang, Siamese Destroyer laid down 1937

Displacement:
2.178 t light; 2.372 t standard; 2.680 t normal; 2.926 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(433,68 ft / 416,67 ft) x 37,73 ft x (13,78 / 14,62 ft)
(132,19 m / 127,00 m) x 11,50 m x (4,20 / 4,46 m)

Armament:
6 - 5,12" / 130 mm 45,0 cal guns - 67,61lbs / 30,67kg shells, 400 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1937 Model
3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 3,19lbs / 1,45kg shells, 2.150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1937 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
1 x 4-gun mount on centreline aft
1 raised mount
8 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 2.150 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1937 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 448 lbs / 203 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 23,6" / 600 mm, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m torpedoes - 2,152 t each, 17,217 t total
In 4 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes
Main DC/AS Mortars
12 - 496,04 lbs / 225,00 kg Depth Charges + 3 reloads - 3,322 t total
in Stern depth charge racks

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2,17" / 55 mm 0,98" / 25 mm 0,98" / 25 mm
2nd: 1,00" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm - -

- Conning towers: Forward 0,98" / 25 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 48.852 shp / 36.443 Kw = 34,60 kts
Range 5.079nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 554 tons

Complement:
186 - 242

Cost:
£1,599 million / $6,396 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 141 tons, 5,3 %
- Guns: 103 tons, 3,8 %
- Weapons: 39 tons, 1,4 %
Armour: 35 tons, 1,3 %
- Armament: 31 tons, 1,2 %
- Conning Tower: 4 tons, 0,2 %
Machinery: 1.255 tons, 46,8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 727 tons, 27,1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 502 tons, 18,7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 0,7 %
- Hull above water: 20 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
750 lbs / 340 Kg = 11,2 x 5,1 " / 130 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,16
Metacentric height 1,5 ft / 0,5 m
Roll period: 12,8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,05

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,433 / 0,446
Length to Beam Ratio: 11,04 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,31 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 32,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25,00 %, 21,98 ft / 6,70 m, 18,37 ft / 5,60 m
- Forward deck: 20,00 %, 18,37 ft / 5,60 m, 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Aft deck: 40,00 %, 14,44 ft / 4,40 m, 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00 %, 14,44 ft / 4,40 m, 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Average freeboard: 16,17 ft / 4,93 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 170,4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 102,1 %
Waterplane Area: 10.274 Square feet or 955 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 85 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 40 lbs/sq ft or 193 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,51
- Longitudinal: 1,52
- Overall: 0,57
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Finally! A small country that shares my deep and abiding passion for useful small escort craft!

First comment is that... oh wait. You edited it to take care of the cross-sectional strength problem.

Nevermind.

In that case, watch the length-to-beam ratio...

Quoted

Originally posted by RAM
The light cruiser department is almost as bad, all Siam has got is a CL class which would've been obsolete by 1920.

Siam just bought four C-class cruisers from Britain in Q1/1937. It was a deal made by the previous player - you'll need to contact Hood for the fine details. I think they were supposed to be modified, but I don't recall.

thanks for the warning. . Still C-class cruisers while useful are kinda obsolete, and are no solution for the problem, as their top speed is around 29 knots (just checked)...

in fact depending on the details of the deal I might even not go ahead with it...


About the ship...yep, noticed the structural problem as I was reviewing the ship. Nothing which couldn't be cured easily .

The lenght-beam ratio I understood was acceptable over 10:1 for light ships. Certainly there are even light cruisers in the SIM right now with similar or bigger L:B ratios, but if the consensus is that 11:1 is abusive I'll redesign the ship right away.

Quoted

Originally posted by RAM
thanks for the warning. . Still C-class cruisers while useful are kinda obsolete, and are no solution for the problem, as their top speed is around 29 knots (just checked)...

in fact depending on the details of the deal I might even not go ahead with it...

Looking at the British report, it was 1,000 tons in Q1 for the first two, 1,000 tons in Q2 for the second pair.

I PM'd Hood about it, but at that cost, I'm seriously thinking in not going ahead with the transaction. It's not a bad deal, but Siam doesn't need more slowish light cruisers at the moment...

Quoted

Originally posted by RAM
The lenght-beam ratio I understood was acceptable over 10:1 for light ships. Certainly there are even light cruisers in the SIM right now with similar or bigger L:B ratios, but if the consensus is that 11:1 is abusive I'll redesign the ship right away.

We've had some... discussions about the L:B ratio, but currently the Design Rules for Gentlemen state:

Quoted

Point 2: Length:Beam ratio.
(as currently proposed)
a) Ships of 8000 tons and smaller => maximum 11:1
b) Ships bigger than 8000 tons => maximum 10:1

I note that the rules say "as currently proposed" which I don't recall seeing before. The last discussion we had, I thought we had decided quite definitely to make 11:1 the maximum, since there were several people who had to redesign several of their ships under construction.

Well, not a problem. Just reduced lenght by 1m, and issue solved:

Phra Ruang, Siamese Destroyer laid down 1937

Displacement:
2.178 t light; 2.372 t standard; 2.680 t normal; 2.926 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(430,40 ft / 413,39 ft) x 37,73 ft x (13,78 / 14,62 ft)
(131,19 m / 126,00 m) x 11,50 m x (4,20 / 4,46 m)

Armament:
6 - 5,12" / 130 mm 45,0 cal guns - 67,61lbs / 30,67kg shells, 400 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1937 Model
3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 3,19lbs / 1,45kg shells, 2.150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1937 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
1 x 4-gun mount on centreline aft
1 raised mount
8 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 2.150 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1937 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 448 lbs / 203 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 23,6" / 600 mm, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m torpedoes - 2,152 t each, 17,217 t total
In 4 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes
Main DC/AS Mortars
12 - 496,04 lbs / 225,00 kg Depth Charges + 3 reloads - 3,322 t total
in Stern depth charge racks

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2,17" / 55 mm 0,98" / 25 mm 0,98" / 25 mm
2nd: 1,00" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm - -

- Conning towers: Forward 0,98" / 25 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 49.164 shp / 36.676 Kw = 34,60 kts
Range 5.079nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 554 tons

Complement:
186 - 242

Cost:
£1,603 million / $6,410 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 141 tons, 5,3 %
- Guns: 103 tons, 3,8 %
- Weapons: 39 tons, 1,4 %
Armour: 35 tons, 1,3 %
- Armament: 31 tons, 1,2 %
- Conning Tower: 4 tons, 0,2 %
Machinery: 1.260 tons, 47,0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 721 tons, 26,9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 502 tons, 18,7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 0,7 %
- Hull above water: 20 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
741 lbs / 336 Kg = 11,1 x 5,1 " / 130 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,16
Metacentric height 1,5 ft / 0,5 m
Roll period: 12,8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,03

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,436 / 0,449
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,96 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,22 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 32,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25,00 %, 21,98 ft / 6,70 m, 18,37 ft / 5,60 m
- Forward deck: 20,00 %, 18,37 ft / 5,60 m, 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Aft deck: 40,00 %, 14,44 ft / 4,40 m, 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00 %, 14,44 ft / 4,40 m, 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Average freeboard: 16,17 ft / 4,93 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 171,0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 101,3 %
Waterplane Area: 10.221 Square feet or 950 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 84 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 40 lbs/sq ft or 193 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,51
- Longitudinal: 1,54
- Overall: 0,57
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Looks good overall: one thing I have a question about is:

Quoted

Main Torpedoes
8 - 23,6" / 600 mm, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m torpedoes - 2,152 t each, 17,217 t total
In 4 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes

I'd suspect two sets of four tubes, rather than four sets of two, might be better for space, but that's just me.

Seems I misunderstood SS3 torpedo fields. I thought the "4" entry was the number of torpedoes per launcher. Seems it's the actual number of launchers...

so...

Phra Ruang, Siamese Destroyer laid down 1937

Displacement:
2.178 t light; 2.372 t standard; 2.680 t normal; 2.926 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(430,40 ft / 413,39 ft) x 37,73 ft x (13,78 / 14,62 ft)
(131,19 m / 126,00 m) x 11,50 m x (4,20 / 4,46 m)

Armament:
6 - 5,12" / 130 mm 45,0 cal guns - 67,61lbs / 30,67kg shells, 400 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1937 Model
3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 3,19lbs / 1,45kg shells, 2.150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1937 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
1 x 4-gun mount on centreline aft
1 raised mount
8 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 2.150 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1937 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 448 lbs / 203 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 23,6" / 600 mm, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m torpedoes - 2,152 t each, 17,217 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes
Main DC/AS Mortars
12 - 496,04 lbs / 225,00 kg Depth Charges + 3 reloads - 3,322 t total
in Stern depth charge racks

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2,17" / 55 mm 0,98" / 25 mm 0,98" / 25 mm
2nd: 1,00" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0,50" / 13 mm - -

- Conning towers: Forward 0,98" / 25 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 49.164 shp / 36.676 Kw = 34,60 kts
Range 5.079nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 554 tons

Complement:
186 - 242

Cost:
£1,603 million / $6,410 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 141 tons, 5,3 %
- Guns: 103 tons, 3,8 %
- Weapons: 39 tons, 1,4 %
Armour: 35 tons, 1,3 %
- Armament: 31 tons, 1,2 %
- Conning Tower: 4 tons, 0,2 %
Machinery: 1.260 tons, 47,0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 721 tons, 26,9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 502 tons, 18,7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 0,7 %
- Hull above water: 20 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
741 lbs / 336 Kg = 11,1 x 5,1 " / 130 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,16
Metacentric height 1,5 ft / 0,5 m
Roll period: 12,8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,03

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,436 / 0,449
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,96 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,22 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 32,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25,00 %, 21,98 ft / 6,70 m, 18,37 ft / 5,60 m
- Forward deck: 20,00 %, 18,37 ft / 5,60 m, 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Aft deck: 40,00 %, 14,44 ft / 4,40 m, 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00 %, 14,44 ft / 4,40 m, 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Average freeboard: 16,17 ft / 4,93 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 171,0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125,5 %
Waterplane Area: 10.221 Square feet or 950 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 84 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 40 lbs/sq ft or 193 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,51
- Longitudinal: 1,54
- Overall: 0,57
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

somewhat off topic, but that looks like SS3, did we make that acceptable now?

I'm not certain. Two or three people have been using the beta, but I don't ever recall seeing any discussion on adopting it officially.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
I'm not certain. Two or three people have been using the beta, but I don't ever recall seeing any discussion on adopting it officially.

I personaly prefer SS3, I can tell you though dont build a ship in SS3 and convert it to SS2... Bad things happen

Quoted

Originally posted by Tanthalas

I personaly prefer SS3

yah, me too.

Quoted

I can tell you though dont build a ship in SS3 and convert it to SS2... Bad things happen

not always, not always:

Phra Ruang, Siamese Destroyer type laid down 1937

Displacement:
1.910 t light; 2.061 t standard; 2.299 t normal; 2.489 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
415,84 ft / 400,26 ft x 37,73 ft x 13,12 ft (normal load)
126,75 m / 122,00 m x 11,50 m x 4,00 m

Armament:
6 - 5,12" / 130 mm guns (3x2 guns), 67,62lbs / 30,67kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm guns (5 mounts), 3,17lbs / 1,44kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 3 raised mounts
8 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1937 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 448 lbs / 203 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 400
8 - 23,6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:

- Conning tower: 0,98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 44.443 shp / 33.155 Kw = 34,60 kts
Range 5.000nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 429 tons

Complement:
165 - 215

Cost:
£1,435 million / $5,740 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 56 tons, 2,4 %
Armour: 4 tons, 0,2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Conning Tower: 4 tons, 0,2 %
Machinery: 1.069 tons, 46,5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 702 tons, 30,5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 389 tons, 16,9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 3,5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
638 lbs / 290 Kg = 9,5 x 5,1 " / 130 mm shells or 0,3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,20
Metacentric height 1,6 ft / 0,5 m
Roll period: 12,5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,04

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,406
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,61 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,01 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 32,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 18,04 ft / 5,50 m (16,08 ft / 4,90 m aft of break)
- Mid (60 %): 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Stern: 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Average freeboard: 15,79 ft / 4,81 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 175,5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 89,7 %
Waterplane Area: 9.682 Square feet or 900 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 77 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 39 lbs/sq ft or 189 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 1,61
- Overall: 0,56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I'd rather sim my ships with SS3. It's been out for almost a year now, after all. But if there is insistance on staying with SS2.1, well, that's some 200tons per DD I'll be saving. And that does mean a difference if you're Siam

Hi!

We agreed some time ago not to use SS3 as it is still only beta with some bugs not worked out. So actually new ships build should still be based on the older v2.1 of springsharp.

Btw, has anybody heard anything from Ian Sharp lately? Any chane we will see a full version of SS3.0 some day?

Regarding the DD - she´s a pretty useful ship, indeed. How many does Siam intend to build and how long will that take?

Please note that the ABS war is over since Q2/36 (although not everything has been posted yet) and it might thus be possible to order some of the latest RSAN designs or probably buy some of the older stuff as the RSAN will reduce numbers. Feel free to ask your local SAE weapon dealer if you have interest in some design (ship, plane, tank).

About SS2.1 , I'm not opposed to it, but I like a lot SS3. However as the consensus is going with SS2, then with SS2 I'll do my designs. As I noted, the Destroyer is almost 200t lighter with SS2, so it's not as if I am against it

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Regarding the DD - she´s a pretty useful ship, indeed. How many does Siam intend to build and how long will that take?

That depends a lot. Firstly I must figure out exactly how many ships I need (fast DDs and CLs is not the only department the navy is lacking). Then it's the fact that I may look abroad for what I can't realistically build at home. So the design is there, but nothing is decided regarding wether I'll actually build it or not (same about the CLs). Too many variables to know it atm.

If the green light is given and the DDs are to be built, bare minimum is four ships to form at least a fast destroyer squadron, something the RSiN is sorely lacking at the moment. Depending on all the other stuff, I might go up to 8 of them in two batches, 4 in 1937, 4 in 1938 (with some improvements if I can fit them in).

But as I said, nothing is set on stone at the moment.

Quoted

Please note that the ABS war is over since Q2/36 (although not everything has been posted yet) and it might thus be possible to order some of the latest RSAN designs or probably buy some of the older stuff as the RSAN will reduce numbers. Feel free to ask your local SAE weapon dealer if you have interest in some design (ship, plane, tank).

That's nice to know. I'll take a good look at any surplus the RSAN is willing to sell

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Hi!

We agreed some time ago not to use SS3 as it is still only beta with some bugs not worked out. So actually new ships build should still be based on the older v2.1 of springsharp.

Btw, has anybody heard anything from Ian Sharp lately? Any chane we will see a full version of SS3.0 some day?

What I recall reading is that the current beta, Beta 3, is stable and has the bugs worked out, but it doesn't have all the features he wanted for SS3. It doesn't have the new drag model he was going to use, for instance, and it doesn't allow you to modify the engine weight (though it has a slider to do that).

Well, in the meantime I converted my SS3 CL designs to SS2. Here they are with some notes. As with the DDs, the mounts are of foreign origin and will have to negotiate to get the appropiate license to use them.

I'm leaning towards the 8x152mm version myself, but want to hear some input anyway:

Thanom Sarasin, Siamese Light Cruiser laid down 1937

Displacement:
5.032 t light; 5.226 t standard; 5.650 t normal; 5.989 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
572,50 ft / 557,74 ft x 49,21 ft x 17,22 ft (normal load)
174,50 m / 170,00 m x 15,00 m x 5,25 m

Armament:
9 - 5,98" / 152 mm guns (3x3 guns), 107,15lbs / 48,60kg shells, 1925 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 3,17lbs / 1,44kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1.008 lbs / 457 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 140
8 - 23,6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4,13" / 105 mm 346,13 ft / 105,50 m 10,17 ft / 3,10 m
Ends: 1,97" / 50 mm 211,61 ft / 64,50 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4,13" / 105 mm 2,17" / 55 mm 3,15" / 80 mm
2nd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 0,98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 1,97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 47.573 shp / 35.489 Kw = 31,50 kts
Range 5.000nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 764 tons

Complement:
325 - 423

Cost:
£2,545 million / $10,180 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 126 tons, 2,2 %
Armour: 1.283 tons, 22,7 %
- Belts: 753 tons, 13,3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 194 tons, 3,4 %
- Armour Deck: 323 tons, 5,7 %
- Conning Tower: 13 tons, 0,2 %
Machinery: 1.319 tons, 23,3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.205 tons, 39,0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 618 tons, 10,9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 1,8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6.426 lbs / 2.915 Kg = 60,0 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 1,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
Metacentric height 2,2 ft / 0,7 m
Roll period: 13,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,418
Length to Beam Ratio: 11,33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24,61 ft / 7,50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14,11 ft / 4,30 m
- Mid (50 %): 14,11 ft / 4,30 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14,11 ft / 4,30 m
- Stern: 14,11 ft / 4,30 m
- Average freeboard: 14,95 ft / 4,56 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95,2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109,4 %
Waterplane Area: 17.743 Square feet or 1.648 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 79 lbs/sq ft or 388 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,89
- Longitudinal: 0,92
- Overall: 0,90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate


Design notes:
152mm triples are of iberian design
47mm and 25mm AA mounts are of italian design
Pros: Best anti-ship battery of the three.
Cons: Lacks the DP ability of the 6 and 8 gun models. Slightly worse armor (very minor decrease) over them.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanom Sarasin, Siamese Light Cruiser laid down 1937

Displacement:
4.996 t light; 5.209 t standard; 5.633 t normal; 5.972 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
572,12 ft / 557,74 ft x 49,21 ft x 17,22 ft (normal load)
174,38 m / 170,00 m x 15,00 m x 5,25 m

Armament:
8 - 5,98" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 104,72lbs / 47,50kg shells, 1934 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 3,17lbs / 1,44kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 882 lbs / 400 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
8 - 23,6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4,13" / 105 mm 341,21 ft / 104,00 m 10,17 ft / 3,10 m
Ends: 1,97" / 50 mm 216,54 ft / 66,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4,13" / 105 mm 2,17" / 55 mm 3,15" / 80 mm
2nd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 0,98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 1,97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 47.457 shp / 35.403 Kw = 31,50 kts
Range 5.000nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 763 tons

Complement:
324 - 422

Cost:
£2,474 million / $9,897 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 113 tons, 2,0 %
Armour: 1.297 tons, 23,0 %
- Belts: 749 tons, 13,3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 212 tons, 3,8 %
- Armour Deck: 323 tons, 5,7 %
- Conning Tower: 13 tons, 0,2 %
Machinery: 1.315 tons, 23,4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.171 tons, 38,5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 637 tons, 11,3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 1,8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6.506 lbs / 2.951 Kg = 60,7 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 1,3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,13
Metacentric height 2,2 ft / 0,7 m
Roll period: 14,0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,39
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,417
Length to Beam Ratio: 11,33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23,79 ft / 7,25 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14,27 ft / 4,35 m
- Mid (50 %): 14,27 ft / 4,35 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14,27 ft / 4,35 m
- Stern: 14,27 ft / 4,35 m
- Average freeboard: 15,03 ft / 4,58 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94,1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 110,9 %
Waterplane Area: 17.727 Square feet or 1.647 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 78 lbs/sq ft or 381 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,90
- Longitudinal: 0,90
- Overall: 0,90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate


Design notes:
Italian mounts, all of them. Dual 152mms are DP.
Pros: Even not really trusting the 152mm gun as an AA weapon, it still is a DP mount. More versatility.
Cons: smaller punch against surface targets than the 9 gun design. Slower than the 6 gun version.
-----------------------------------------------------


Thanom Sarasin, Siamese Light Cruiser
type laid down 1937

Displacement:
5.019 t light; 5.209 t standard; 5.633 t normal; 5.972 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
572,12 ft / 557,74 ft x 49,21 ft x 17,22 ft (normal load)
174,38 m / 170,00 m x 15,00 m x 5,25 m

Armament:
6 - 5,98" / 152 mm guns (3x2 guns), 104,72lbs / 47,50kg shells, 1934 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 3,17lbs / 1,44kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 672 lbs / 305 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
8 - 23,6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4,13" / 105 mm 354,33 ft / 108,00 m 10,17 ft / 3,10 m
Ends: 1,97" / 50 mm 203,41 ft / 62,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4,13" / 105 mm 2,17" / 55 mm 3,15" / 80 mm
2nd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 0,98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 1,97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 51.913 shp / 38.727 Kw = 32,25 kts
Range 5.000nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 763 tons

Complement:
324 - 422

Cost:
£2,450 million / $9,801 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 86 tons, 1,5 %
Armour: 1.255 tons, 22,3 %
- Belts: 759 tons, 13,5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 160 tons, 2,8 %
- Armour Deck: 323 tons, 5,7 %
- Conning Tower: 13 tons, 0,2 %
Machinery: 1.439 tons, 25,5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.139 tons, 38,0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 614 tons, 10,9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 1,8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6.459 lbs / 2.930 Kg = 60,3 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 1,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
Metacentric height 2,2 ft / 0,7 m
Roll period: 14,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,31
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,417
Length to Beam Ratio: 11,33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23,79 ft / 7,25 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Mid (50 %): 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Stern: 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Average freeboard: 15,49 ft / 4,72 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97,4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114,8 %
Waterplane Area: 17.727 Square feet or 1.647 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 76 lbs/sq ft or 373 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,90
- Longitudinal: 0,94
- Overall: 0,90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Design notes: Italian mounts, as in the previous design.
Pros: Faster ship of the bunch.
Cons: small main battery.

-------------------------------------------------------



Well, those are the three designs I'm thinking of. The 6x152mm is mostly out of the question, so I'm split between the 9 gun and the 8 gun version (provided I get the licences for the mounts from iberia/italy, that is).

thoughts?

I can see two objections against the cruisers off the top: 1, the length to beam ratio is over 11:1, and 2, the BC is really, really low at .418 or .417.

On the destroyers, it looks like you'll need to build them in Type 1.5 or 2 slips, does Siam have many of those?