Siam request for tender.

howard

Unregistered

Thursday, July 24th 2008, 5:48pm

[pending mods approval for play]

Siam is conducting a massive defense review of its military needs.

This includes the RTA [the Siamese Royal Army]

The following request for information is made.

1. Interested parties submitting technical missions to establish
a. a staff college.
b. an NCO academy.
c. an artillery school.

2. Interested parties submitting possible equipment tenders for the following:
a. standard trucks and armored cars.
b. amphibious trucks and cars
c. medium field artillery-preferably 75mm-125 mm bore at least 10,500 meters range.
d. tank-nominally able to resist 50 mm HVAP shot and able to operate in very rough and forested terrain. [Think Matilda tank armed with at least 50 mm bore long gun when making offer].
e. standard infantry rifle-semi-automatic self-loading preferred.
f. portable machine gun to use ammunition comparable to rifle.
g. submachine gun or carbine optimized for jungle conditions caliber to be common with rifle.
h. infantry mortar. 75mm-90 mm bore-Stokes type preferred.

The technical mission that can meet these specifications in toto closest will be the preferred source of procurement for modernization.

Please consider that the Kingdom of Siam prefers tenders from those nations with experience and equipment suited to Siam's topological condition. [jungle, plains, and wetlands.]

Please also consider that Siam is reforming its army from a largely peasant infantry bolt-action rifle equipped force, loosely modeled on the European square infantry division to a modern light infantry force, built on a Kongolese quick reaction brigade model as espoused by the senior advisors to our king.

H.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "howard" (Jul 24th 2008, 6:03pm)

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Red Admiral

Italian Stallion

Posts: 7,019

2

Thursday, July 24th 2008, 6:23pm

I don't think anyone has APCR shot in service or even in development yet. Closest are some taper-bore weapons, but they're small calibre. Protection against 50mm class weapons means quite a heavy tank, probably early M4. Gives a fair few transport problems.

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howard

Unregistered

3

Thursday, July 24th 2008, 7:19pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
I don't think anyone has APCR shot in service or even in development yet. Closest are some taper-bore weapons, but they're small calibre. Protection against 50mm class weapons means quite a heavy tank, probably early M4. Gives a fair few transport problems.

Composite rigid is showing up around 1938. Matilda is a 27 ton monster perfect for jungle warfare designed to stop antitank weapons about that range at least in the frontal arc aspect: tank was prototyping around 1938-1939.

Tank transport was why the British RTL didn't have any when the Japanese visited Singapore. Didn't stop the Japanese who were even more tank poor than the British from bringing a few along-about a 100 or so. That was 11 tonners through jungle. 27 tonners about the same size is therefore possible, and actually better suited to the terrain.

H.

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Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

4

Friday, July 25th 2008, 12:00am

RE: Siam request for tender.

Quoted

Originally posted by howard

e. standard infantry rifle-semi-automatic self-loading preferred.
f. portable machine gun to use ammunition comparable to rifle.
g. submachine gun or carbine optimized for jungle conditions caliber to be common with rifle.

These requirements are extremely at odds with each other, and thus impossible to fill, unless we're using, say, pixie magic.

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howard

Unregistered

5

Friday, July 25th 2008, 12:18am

RE: Siam request for tender.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by howard

e. standard infantry rifle-semi-automatic self-loading preferred.
f. portable machine gun to use ammunition comparable to rifle.
g. submachine gun or carbine optimized for jungle conditions caliber to be common with rifle.

These requirements are extremely at odds with each other, and thus impossible to fill, unless we're using, say, pixie magic.

M-4 Colt, SAW, AR-15

You might have to be imaginative and WW finagle it. A full auto carbine version of the Pedersen Garand might be necessary or a development like this:

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as86-e.htm

in a host country weapons family might be necessary.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as86-e.htm

http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg54-e.htm

for the machine gun, submachine gun, and rifle.

H.

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Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

6

Friday, July 25th 2008, 12:36am

All three of which use the .223 round. Germany's still laying the foundation for their semiautomatic rifle, and the US *JUST* adopted the .276 Garand. Atlantis is playing with the 7x45 Aiolos for a carbine, but has no production orders made SFAIK.

There is very little historical basis in the thirties for a subcaliber rifle, and we're already pushing it here for semiauto battle rifles. In the thirties most countries are still preferring bolt-action rifles, after all - and there are perhaps only two or three quality semiautos in existence, even in Wesworld. I have the Bulgarians toying with the semiauto "Samo-Tovarene Pushka Radichkov 1936" or STPR-36, which will eventually be refined into the STPR-39 following the lessons observed in Yugoslavia.

To go from Mausers to an M16/SAW/M4 requires excessive amounts of foresight, IMHO... not to mention a massive change in training and most importantly, *the supply office*.

I'd just love to wave my hand and give the Bulgars FN FALs, but it's unrealistic to me to see countries doing much more than testing the waters for semiautos.

This is Wesworld, not Hindsightworld, afterall.

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howard

Unregistered

7

Friday, July 25th 2008, 12:57am

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
All three of which use the .223 round. Germany's still laying the foundation for their semiautomatic rifle, and the US *JUST* adopted the .276 Garand. Atlantis is playing with the 7x45 Aiolos for a carbine, but has no production orders made SFAIK.

Quoted

The Federov is 1916.

Quoted

There is very little historical basis in the thirties for a subcaliber rifle, and we're already pushing it here for semiauto battle rifles. In the thirties most countries are still preferring bolt-action rifles, after all - and there are perhaps only two or three quality semiautos in existence, even in Wesworld. I have the Bulgarians toying with the semiauto "Samo-Tovarene Pushka Radichkov 1936" or STPR-36, which will eventually be refined into the STPR-39 following the lessons observed in Yugoslavia.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg02-e.htm
in response to
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg52-e.htm

Quoted

To go from Mausers to an M16/SAW/M4 requires excessive amounts of foresight, IMHO... not to mention a massive change in training and most importantly, *the supply office*.

Well Siam is going through a defense review:

Quoted

I'd just love to wave my hand and give the Bulgars FN FALs, but it's unrealistic to me to see countries doing much more than testing the waters for semiautos.

The US started in 1925.

Quoted

This is Wesworld, not Hindsightworld, afterall.

Agreed. Still there is that insane Siamese staff officer.

H.

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Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

8

Friday, July 25th 2008, 3:37am

Quoted

Originally posted by howard
The Federov is 1916.

So? The Mondragon was 1908. It didn't make them successful. They jammed like a guitar hero, and cost significantly more than the comparable bolt-action rifles.

Quoted

Quoted

There is very little historical basis in the thirties for a subcaliber rifle, and we're already pushing it here for semiauto battle rifles. In the thirties most countries are still preferring bolt-action rifles, after all - and there are perhaps only two or three quality semiautos in existence, even in Wesworld. I have the Bulgarians toying with the semiauto "Samo-Tovarene Pushka Radichkov 1936" or STPR-36, which will eventually be refined into the STPR-39 following the lessons observed in Yugoslavia.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg02-e.htm
in response to
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg52-e.htm

Which does not disprove my argument. A submachine gun is still a long walk from an assault rifle. Most submachine guns of the thirties were still able to use direct blowback, just like an automatic pistol - but rifles can't do that reliably. They require a gas system to drive the bolt, and designing a system reliable enough to work in the field without jamming, yet cheap enough to manufacture, is going to take work.

Quoted

Quoted

I'd just love to wave my hand and give the Bulgars FN FALs, but it's unrealistic to me to see countries doing much more than testing the waters for semiautos.

The US started in 1925.

Yes... and they're just getting a solid working production gun in 1936.

Quoted

Agreed. Still there is that insane Siamese staff officer.

Not insane: foresighted, or perhaps prophetic.

I see nothing wrong with requesting a SABR in 1936. Nor do I see a problem with ordering a machine-gun for the same chambering. But I do see a problem trying to get both to share a caliber with a submachine gun. Submachine guns ought to be sharing a caliber with your standard sidearm, not with a rifle.

As I recall, Siam IRL used Mausers - that'd give you the standard 8mm round, probably with an existing LMG - I'd expect them to be Madsen LMGs, considering the Danish and Siamese ties. Siam's not going to have the money to replace them swiftly, merely supplement them with a secondary weapon as training takes hold.

Let me describe what I'm doing with Bulgaria. The Army currently has Mannlicher M95 rifles chambered for 8mm Mauser and the 8x50R (yech). Rather than invent a new caliber or add another to the inventory, I ordered Swiss-built K31s modified to shoot 8x57, just as my MG30 LMGs shoot, and just like the rifles and MGs of my ally shoots. Meanwhile, the oldest 8x50R Mannlichers get phased out to second-line troops and militia. Submachinegun wise, I've got the Steyr-Solothurn Mp34 in standard 9mm, and the FN Hi-power to share that round.

The Bulgarian STPR-36s are different. I stated that they were designed with extensive Swiss help - specifically SIG - and the Army has ordered only two thousand: one thousand rifles chambered for 8mm, and one thousand rifles chambered for 6.5x55 Nord. They'll go to elite units for extensive evaluation. In Q3/36 both versions will get the vote of confidence, and it'll go back to the drawing boards for streamlining production and improving reliability; then another larger order of STPRs will be made in 1937, probably as a pre-war order. If I feel particularly capricious at the time, the order will make use of Bulgaria's ties to Atlantis, and be ordered in the Atlantean .255 Nemesis round (6.5x51mm).

The STPR series uses a lot of the same parts from the Swiss-ordered K31s, or at least similar manufacturing techniques when possible, and was intentionally designed that way to smooth transition. The 36 series will have a lot of rough edges which eventually get trimmed out by the 39.

When/if Bulgaria gets involved in the future Yugoslav unpleasantness, there will be few STPR-36s in the hands of troops, but they will perform well enough to merit an upgrade - the STPR-39 I mentioned. Basically making things more solid and reliable, and moving to better production methods which cut cost. Between 1943 or 1945, the STPR-39 will be present in high enough numbers that the Bulgars will stop seeing bolt-actions as the primary small arm of the infantry, though the K31s will remain in hand until the 1950s at least.

Submachine gun wise, the Mp34s will probably transition to something cheaper, probably an Atlantean or German design, probably something close to an MP40. The machine guns won't change much, either, though if the Bulgars can get their mitts on MG42s, they won't turn them down...

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Hrolf Hakonson

Scooby-Doo

Posts: 6,178

9

Friday, July 25th 2008, 3:53am

The US started the process that led to the Garand in 1925, but even in WW it was 1935 before production started (on the .276 Pedersen version), in OTL it was later before the .30-06 version began production.

There's been no Spanish Civil War for much tank-vs-tank fighting, so while there are a number of tanks armed with 40-57mm guns running around, there isn't much (if any) need for HVAP/APCR rounds seen so far. To this point, the South American war hasn't shown any particular problems for AP rounds to penetrate, so it will probably be a bit before such rounds are developed (and before Siam would learn of them).

Absolutely agree with Brockpaine: the mid-1930s is NOT the time for things like the M-4. Submachineguns have been around since the Great War, but they're chambered for pistol cartridges, NOT rifle cartridges. The Federov was NOT a sub-caliber rifle, it was chambered in the standard Japanese cartridge of the day, the 6.5mm x 50SR, but only a few thousand were built.

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howard

Unregistered

10

Friday, July 25th 2008, 4:23am

1. The need for for some kind of self-loading rifle should be obvious from the South American war. Ditto for the portable machine gun.

2. Trench brooms are a given from the Great War. Both the BAR and the Thompson were direct results of the Somme.

3. Jungle terrain means that engagement ranges are not going to measured in hundreds of yards but mainly in dozens.

Maybe the tender should be amended to reflect the desire for a self loading rifle and a portable machine gun.

The Johnsons might be an interesting departure point? Never widely accepted for American service, maybe Mister Johnson would like to open a Bangkok factory?

H.

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Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

11

Friday, July 25th 2008, 4:46am

If Siam wants a SABR, then there are probably enough nascent designs in WW to get a working Siamese design within three or four years. If Siam wants an SMG, then there are probably enough of those that you can order off the shelf. Designing something more fancy will take a really long time.

When I helped Wes put together the Atlantean small-arms, I pulled together a lot of research to make it as realistic as possible. You can see what we came up with. Like the US, Atlantis is starting to work into semi-auto battle rifles as well, and has the very beginning pieces for a good semiauto battle rifle (the Iacchus-Lycurgus SLR) and a semiauto carbine (the Azeas-Petra prototype).

The only reason I'm putting Bulgaria on the SLR trail already is because they're working VERY closely with the Swiss design firms, who are shouldering much of the weight, and perhaps the actual production. The Czech-owned Brno arsenal might even be in on the development, which adds more money and genius. The Bulgarians are providing funding and their lead weapons-ideas-monger, Iliya Radichkov, who has been tinkering with an SLR ever since I picked up Bulgaria. However, ordering the STPR-36 en masse right now will merely net me a bunch of mediocre, untested, expensive rifles.

Honestly, I think Siam would be wasting good money to try to purchase or develop a SABR at this point. Better to spend it buying and then refining a good solid SMG design. Your point number three there is a strong argument AGAINST buying an SLR: you just don't need the extra range, because an SMG will do beautifully, and exists in numbers already. I'd suggest keeping your Mausers as the main rifle for the present, and then picking up an SMG design. By the 1940s, somebody's going to have a solid and less-expensive SLR design for export, and you'll have enough SMGs in the armed forces to redirect funds to purchasing them.

Should Siam still be interested in getting an SLR, and should they be interested in the STPR-36, contact the design team via either SIG or Derzhavna Voenna Fabrika. Or you could talk to your Italian allies, who have a rifle in limited service as well... or Madsen, which had a SLR/LMG from 1896...

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Brockpaine" (Jul 25th 2008, 4:53am)

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howard

Unregistered

12

Friday, July 25th 2008, 5:05am

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
If Siam wants a SABR, then there are probably enough nascent designs in WW to get a working Siamese design within three or four years. If Siam wants an SMG, then there are probably enough of those that you can order off the shelf. Designing something more fancy will take a really long time.

The source will either be a neutral or an ally. Take a good look around AEGIS-that means either Danish or Italian.

Quoted

When I helped Wes put together the Atlantean small-arms, I pulled together a lot of research to make it as realistic as possible. You can see what we came up with. Like the US, Atlantis is starting to work into semi-auto battle rifles as well, and has the very beginning pieces for a good semiauto battle rifle (the Iacchus-Lycurgus SLR) and a semiauto carbine (the Azeas-Petra prototype).

The fact that you know about that piece of crud Ljungmann self-loading rifle shows me that you are an expert in the subject field.

Quoted

The only reason I'm putting Bulgaria on the SLR trail already is because they're working VERY closely with the Swiss design firms, who are shouldering much of the weight, and perhaps the actual production. The Czech-owned Brno arsenal might even be in on the development, which adds more money and genius. The Bulgarians are providing funding and their lead weapons-ideas-monger, Iliya Radichkov, who has been tinkering with an SLR ever since I picked up Bulgaria. However, ordering the STPR-36 en masse right now will merely net me a bunch of mediocre, untested, expensive rifles.

The ten year rule strikes again.

Quoted

Honestly, I think Siam would be wasting good money to try to purchase or develop a SABR at this point. Better to spend it buying and then refining a good solid SMG design. Your point number three there is a strong argument AGAINST buying an SLR: you just don't need the extra range, because an SMG will do beautifully, and exists in numbers already. I'd suggest keeping your Mausers as the main rifle for the present, and then picking up an SMG design. By the 1940s, somebody's going to have a solid and less-expensive SLR design for export, and you'll have enough SMGs in the armed forces to redirect funds to purchasing them.

Point noted. As I write more of the politics of the defense review I'll keep that in mind. Thanks.

Quoted

Should Siam still be interested in getting an SLR, and should they be interested in the STPR-36, contact the design team via either SIG or Derzhavna Voenna Fabrika. Or you could talk to your Italian allies, who have a rifle in limited service as well... or Madsen, which had a SLR/LMG from 1896...

Like I said; Denmark or Italy or a neutral.

Would Bulgaria like to bid on the military assistance contract?

H

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "howard" (Jul 25th 2008, 5:16am)

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Kaiser Kirk

Lightbringer and former European Imperialist

Posts: 3,605

13

Friday, July 25th 2008, 5:29am

RE: Siam request for tender.

Quoted

Originally posted by howard
The technical mission that can meet these specifications in toto closest will be the preferred source of procurement for modernization.

... to a modern light infantry force, built on a Kongolese quick reaction brigade model
H.

Well when the 6th & 7th Kongo Expeditionary Brigades are complete they will look like a more mechanized version of the Dutch Marines- who are designed for DEI fighting, with matched LMG/Rifle cartridges and decent numbers of SMGs, and spiffy new uniforms to beat the heat.

Overall I am guessing the Danes field the best range to meet Siam's needs. The Dutch buy to much from elsewhere, including Denmark, to really compete on land armanants. Though the LT-35 tank is fairly well armed & armored for the mid-1930s, basically a Souma S-35 with a bigger turret.

Feel free to browse the Belgian Army post as they will sell anything to virtually anyone and sell a wide variety of gear. Belgian Equipment

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Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

14

Friday, July 25th 2008, 5:58am

Quoted

Originally posted by howard
The fact that you know about that piece of crud Ljungmann self-loading rifle shows me that you are an expert in the subject field.

You might say I'm an enthusiast and a collector.

Though I find it quite odd you refer to the Ljungmann as "crud". Though I have yet to get my grubby little mitts on one of the Swedish Ljungmanns, I have never heard a bad word spoken of them by their owners. The only complaint I've ever heard is reloading is tricky and the bolt operation is non-intuitive, but that otherwise they are on par or superior to an M1 Garand. The Hakim, on the other hand... that derivative is not precisely my favorite. Heavier than a box of rocks, that thing is, though it shoots well. Still, they had to overbuild it to get the chambering the Egyptians wanted. Not a very good choice, IMHO.

Quoted

Should Siam still be interested in getting an SLR, and should they be interested in the STPR-36, contact the design team via either SIG or Derzhavna Voenna Fabrika. Or you could talk to your Italian allies, who have a rifle in limited service as well... or Madsen, which had a SLR/LMG from 1896...

Like I said; Denmark or Italy or a neutral.

Would Bulgaria like to bid on the military assistance contract?

H[/quote]
Bulgaria by and large isn't even remotely able to comprehend the terrain and technical restrictions a Siamese force would need to thrive under; nor is Bulgaria precisely a paramount force even in the Balkans. The Army was almost totally dismantled following the Great War and didn't start rebuilding until the mid-30s: Bulgaria is in much the same boat as Siam, but is ahead of the curve in terms of time and helpful industrialized neighbors. As such Bulgaria would more be looking for an investment/development partner to share the load, and those companies in Bulgaria are mostly foreign owned firms.

For instance:
- Bulgaria's DAR (State Airplane Factory) is 49% owned by Avia/Fokker, and was modernized by them.
- Belgian company Brossels is building (has built?) a factory in Bulgaria for production of Brossels TAL 13-ton 4x4 artillery tractor (see the Danish 1935 news or talk to Kaiser Kirk).

Both companies are closely affiliated with some of your own allies, so I'm sure they'd market to you.

The STPR-36 has barely been out three months, but should Siam wish to preview it, they're welcome to take a look - in return for a "please invest" spiel.

However, like I said... you'd be best to invest in a good SMG and refine it. The Italian SMGs have a good reputation, and so you might want to look into those closely.

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Kaiser Kirk

Lightbringer and former European Imperialist

Posts: 3,605

15

Friday, July 25th 2008, 7:17am

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
For instance:
- Bulgaria's DAR (State Airplane Factory) is 49% owned by Avia/Fokker, and was modernized by them.
- Belgian company Brossels is building (has built?) a factory in Bulgaria for production of Brossels TAL 13-ton 4x4 artillery tractor (see the Danish 1935 news or talk to Kaiser Kirk).

I would think the Bulgarian Brossels facility would be nearing completion by now, and might be in limited production.

I've noticed you keep mentioning the FN-FAL, while it will appear in Wesworld in advance of the OTL(1), it still has sometime to go.

(1) +3 years tech line, +3 for the missing war years, so about ~1946, preceeded by the FN-49 in 1943, and the 1939 semi-auto about...well now. Hmm I thought I had a bit more to wait before that became available.

Edit : Dutch Lt-35 info

24.44 tonnes
6.35m long, 2.6m wide, 2.62m high
2 hull positions (Driver, MG/Radio), 3 turret positions
1x 45L48, 3x 13.2mm HMG (hull/coax/commander)

234 diesel engine
Max spd :17mph
Range : 180miles
0.42m ground clearance, 8.5 psi

Armor front/side/rear/top/bottom
Turret: 55 / 40 / 35 / 30 / na
Hull : 50 / 35-40 / 30-35 / 30 / 15

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Kaiser Kirk" (Jul 25th 2008, 7:33am)

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Red Admiral

Italian Stallion

Posts: 7,019

16

Friday, July 25th 2008, 11:36am

Italy has a variety of weapons but I'm not sure how they would stand up to jungle warfare. Given the short engagement ranges I wouldn't bother going for a new rifle, just lots of smgs instead. Italy has a lot of surplus Beretta M1918s. They're fairly light and reliable but chambered for 9x17 corto which limits the effective range to about 100m. The rate of fire is a bit high as well. Its replacement will be the Beretta MAB1938, the M1935 version is currently issued to some Carabinieri units but is only semi-automatic. Its available in 9x19 para but the M1938 will be in the considerably more powerful 9x19 Fiocchi. Coupled with the long barrel and the effective range is up to around 200m. However its expensive to make so a redesign along 1938/42 lines might be necessary. I've no idea how it would hold up in the jungle.

For actual rifles, the Esercito Italiano is currently transitioning to 7.35x51 from 6.5x52 for a more effective short range round. Its helped a lot from having a much smaller army. The short Carcano rifle is the standard in this new round but there is also the Breda P.G. fully auto rifle but its heavy, complicated and not very reliable. Its currently being redesigned.

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Hrolf Hakonson

Scooby-Doo

Posts: 6,178

17

Friday, July 25th 2008, 12:09pm

Given some of Siam's terrain, and interest in automatic weapons (though I suspect the quartermaster corps will be unhappy), I'd look for something along the lines of the Hungarian Model 39 SMG - uses a powerful (for an SMG) cartridge (9mm Mauser), available from a neutral, etc. An expensive (and heavy) alternative would be to contact Auto Ordnance in the US and buy Thompsons (and lots of 0.45" ACP).

Historically, some Czech ZH-29s were purchased by Siam as well.

I'll look and see what I've worked out on this before, I know Swampy and I discussed what Siam used.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Hrolf Hakonson" (Jul 25th 2008, 12:10pm)

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Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

18

Friday, July 25th 2008, 12:34pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
I've noticed you keep mentioning the FN-FAL, while it will appear in Wesworld in advance of the OTL(1), it still has sometime to go.

(1) +3 years tech line, +3 for the missing war years, so about ~1946, preceeded by the FN-49 in 1943, and the 1939 semi-auto about...well now. Hmm I thought I had a bit more to wait before that became available.

I can plz has FN FAL preorderz nw?

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howard

Unregistered

19

Friday, July 25th 2008, 2:16pm

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
Given some of Siam's terrain, and interest in automatic weapons (though I suspect the quartermaster corps will be unhappy), I'd look for something along the lines of the Hungarian Model 39 SMG - uses a powerful (for an SMG) cartridge (9mm Mauser), available from a neutral, etc. An expensive (and heavy) alternative would be to contact Auto Ordnance in the US and buy Thompsons (and lots of 0.45" ACP).

Historically, some Czech ZH-29s were purchased by Siam as well.

I'll look and see what I've worked out on this before, I know Swampy and I discussed what Siam used.

ZH-29s? Not many as that Czech rifle is expensive and fouls easily. If I have any brains at all, I'll look to license manufacture the Kiraly Danuvia Submachine Gun Model 1939 from Hungary that is in development about this time, and try to get that to jungle function. Swiss SIG MKMO may have inspired it. Both weapons were reputed to be nearly unbreakable and functioned in extreme environments. Chrome the barrels and receivers and develop a metal stock assembly and I have my submachine gun-cum carbine effective to 200+ meters.

Now I need to contact Hungary about about a manufacturing license.........

H.

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Vukovlad

Me too !!!

Posts: 4,137

20

Friday, July 25th 2008, 2:34pm

The ZH-29 is in Persian service, so perhaps a joint improvement project. Persia holds a license for the ZH-29 and SIG/ Neuhausen MKMS

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