WesWorld

I wasnt commenting on the tactics or capabilities of Brazil or its opponents just saying that i am sure that we would welcome you back as Brazil

I have no illusions about the chances of the Marinho Imperial against the South African Navy in a stand-up fight, that's not in question. What I question are primarily three things:

1) How in the hell the South African Navy, which by Hoo's admission has no carrier strike doctrine, managed to out-Pearl Harbor Pearl Harbor. Seriously, one carrier, with no training or doctrine to base it on, was more successful against the most heavily defended port in South America in the middle of a declared war than an entire Japanese fleet was against Pearl Harbor with a bloody sneak attack. Also consider that the Japanese meticulously planned Pearl Harbor, while the South Africans launched an off-the-cuff raid. It's ridiculous and it's stupid.

2) I know I made mention of the fact that the Marinha Imperial was working towards a fleet-centric doctrine and that the Margay class, as the first mass-produced class of ships in the MI's history, was the start of it. Doesn't make much sense that they'd try to shoehorn such ships into old doctrine and add an additional handicap by saddling them with old ships of questionable quality even when they were new.

3) And the Porto Alegre mess. I made it abundantly clear numerous times while I was involved in the RP that the Exercito is on a whole different world from the Marinha. It goes back all the way to the failed coup attempt, when the Emperor decided to rebuild the Exercito into something that was loyal to the Imperio and extremely competent. At best Porto Alegre should've been a Pyhrric victory for the South African Army, and yet it was far more successful than it had any right to be.


But, as I said, I'm not surprised. Nobody here seems to go to any serious effort where NPC nations are concerned. It would've been more fair to RP Brazil to summarily pull out due to internal troubles with indig rebels than to RP this out as it has been.

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Originally posted by Vukovlad
I wasnt commenting on the tactics or capabilities of Brazil or its opponents just saying that i am sure that we would welcome you back as Brazil

At this point I have less than zero interest. I'm not going to bother with yet again rebuilding Brazil, except this time it's not 9 years in, it's sixteen and effectively with less than ten years to rebuild the Marinha. Even while I was here and actively participating I stressed the need for true fairness where NPC nations are concerned, but it has apparently fallen on deaf ears. *shrugs* Oh well, it's not my problem any longer.

I made a halfhearted request for Brazil a few months back, but I'm basically uninterested so long as there's a war... and I'm quite happy with running Bulgaria, for now.

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Originally posted by Fyrwulf
I have no illusions about the chances of the Marinho Imperial against the South African Navy in a stand-up fight, that's not in question. What I question are primarily three things:

1) How in the hell the South African Navy, which by Hoo's admission has no carrier strike doctrine, managed to out-Pearl Harbor Pearl Harbor. Seriously, one carrier, with no training or doctrine to base it on, was more successful against the most heavily defended port in South America in the middle of a declared war than an entire Japanese fleet was against Pearl Harbor with a bloody sneak attack. Also consider that the Japanese meticulously planned Pearl Harbor, while the South Africans launched an off-the-cuff raid. It's ridiculous and it's stupid.

With all due respect, we can't have impregnable defences just because we say its so. Pearl harbour is certainly not a good example to use, its much larger, much more impregnable and was still caught off guard by the Japanese. Its pure blind luck the carriers weren't caught and sunk too so to say the Brazilians couldn't get caught with their pants down is questionable.

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Originally posted by Fyrwulf
2) I know I made mention of the fact that the Marinha Imperial was working towards a fleet-centric doctrine and that the Margay class, as the first mass-produced class of ships in the MI's history, was the start of it. Doesn't make much sense that they'd try to shoehorn such ships into old doctrine and add an additional handicap by saddling them with old ships of questionable quality even when they were new.

Well without a player you can't exactly explain why they wouldn't revert to an old strategy, in your words. IIRC Brazils two newest battlecruisers are in no shape to take part in any battle so older ships have to fill the void as they would in any navy.

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Originally posted by Fyrwulf
3) And the Porto Alegre mess. I made it abundantly clear numerous times while I was involved in the RP that the Exercito is on a whole different world from the Marinha. It goes back all the way to the failed coup attempt, when the Emperor decided to rebuild the Exercito into something that was loyal to the Imperio and extremely competent. At best Porto Alegre should've been a Pyhrric victory for the South African Army, and yet it was far more successful than it had any right to be.

Well what are the players supposed to do, script a resounding victory for Brazil? Given the hostility Brazil had shown towards the SAE in the past its not surprising that the South Africans would focus on knocking them out of the war with a series of resounding victory's so that they can consintrate on the larger Argentine navy and preserving their South American territory.

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Originally posted by Fyrwulf
But, as I said, I'm not surprised. Nobody here seems to go to any serious effort where NPC nations are concerned. It would've been more fair to RP Brazil to summarily pull out due to internal troubles with indig rebels than to RP this out as it has been.

I think your selling people short, several efforts were made but getting a general concensus on anything is difficult and player nations take priority.

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Originally posted by Fyrwulf
I have no illusions about the chances of the Marinho Imperial against the South African Navy in a stand-up fight, that's not in question. What I question are primarily three things:

1) How in the hell the South African Navy, which by Hoo's admission has no carrier strike doctrine, managed to out-Pearl Harbor Pearl Harbor.

Actually I was thinking it more in line with Taranto, where there was remarkable results. A single carrier sent 21 aircraft against an alerted major anchorage, knocking 3 BBs out of action by 5 torpedoes, plus a CA and a DD hit.

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But, as I said, I'm not surprised. Nobody here seems to go to any serious effort where NPC nations are concerned. It would've been more fair to RP Brazil to summarily pull out due to internal troubles with indig rebels than to RP this out as it has been.

Yes, NPCs will tend to do less well. That said, Hoo has repeatedly mentioned that they would like somebody to take Brazil's reins, and they are *trying* I think.
As such, I disagree that it is totally unbalanced, which seems to be the allegation. The SAE navy has suffered substantial damage with several capital ships knocked out of action, some never to fight again. As for land battles, there were many WWII armies who had wartime experiences they were not expecting. Take the Russians in 1939 invading little Finnland

As for Brazil, until it is looking at long term loss of substantive territories, why not stay in? The South Afrikans are not likely to be strong enough to go conquering a swath of Brazil so long as the Argies are behind them, so staying in risks little but has potential rewards.

Well I did offer to take care of Brazil for the duration of the war...

Well IMO if someone here is really keen on seeing an active Brazil talk to Hoo and Hood and throw them a few ideas.

As one of the authors of the war I feel it neccessary to rebuke some of these allegations.

Firstly Fyrwulf and Swampy have alternated positions as players of Brazil. Both have had differing doctrines and different plans. Both dropped out leaving me and Hoo in the lurch on just what would happen next. In the absence of any solid plans or doctrines passed on to us. Brazil has suffered no worse than Argentina in my opinion. This is why generally I'm losing favour with scripting wars, it is long and hard work and if someone pulls out midwar all the others are forced to don two or three national hats and make everyone happy. Even if someone else took on the reigns during the war all we would have is a new set of ideas and doctrines and suppositions.

The Rio raid was a Taranto, as such I scripted the whole thing based on that event. Swampy also had his doubts. The facts are a night raid is hard to counter, the BAF might have hundreds of day fighters but not much use at night. Slow biplanes are harder to hit as they can fly much lower, and there is no answer to torpedoes once they have been dropped. Pearl Harbour never entered into the ideas stage at all. Totally a different concept, Taranto was a desperate raid launched with weaker forces than planned and even loss of surprise. Of course Brazilian AA gunners might all be crack shots but there is no indication a 1930s Army would fare any better, or worse, than the Italians.
The RSAN having raided Argentina a few times previously have gained some experience.

Most Brazilian heavy units are in drydock or damaged but all are repairable, none have been sunk at sea. Thus a future player can rebuild and repair them. The only serious losses are a few very old cruisers well past the prime. Brazilian subs have had successes.

The latest battle could only be fought by old ships, with the the two new BC now out of the war the dreadnoughts have to be used for shore-bombardment (which would be their logical use anyway). There is nothing else left, the Margay's can't win wars on their own and had to be used to escort the battleship. Also politicaly supporting Argentina's naval operation by offering a diversion was essential if the two are to remain allies. As it is neither nation has gained anything from the war (and Brazil joined after Argentina to grab what spoils it could).

I take the point about the land operations, I really was unaware of the true mechanised nature of the 3rd Army and how the Army would react to modern warfare.
Things are complex on land, yes along the coast the Brazilian forces are retreating but further inland near Paraguay they are still advancing. It is a see-saw and I see things as an overstrech more than a rout. Argentina too reaching levels it cannot sustain.

Lastly I would say at no time has this been about an NPC bashing excercise, since Brazil has been semi-played by both me and Hoo in the absence of a full-time player. Argentina needs a strong Brazil. If one drops out then the war is over for both. Just for the record bashing a PC nation just to avoid an NPC losing a war is not realistic either.

I echo Wes, if anyone has anything to offer now is the time to pitch in. We are stalled on August News at the moment and falling behind.

Given a fortnight I could help, as my degree will be over. I will re-read all of the war related stuff and try and see Brazil's position.

EDIT:- Checked relevant files

On Land - Deadlock, with the Africans starting to win

In the Air - not good, African Superiority starting to tell

At Sea - Knackered

Good response Hood.

For my part, I think you two are doing a dandy job, esp. given the difficulties, and I appreciate and look forward to the writeups that result.

As for the 3rd army, just because a force is mechanized does not mean it utilizes those resources well.

As for lending a hand, right now I am still trying to get to Q1, 1936 news. I am starting to catch up with the rest of life, so I could likely run Brazil/help run Brazil come June and going forward (though I see Earl and Fox are lining up).

I am always willing to serve as a sounding board if you want a 3rd party view of Brazil's options/reactions (as if you haven't had enough 'voices' from there).