Since my idea of a heavy destroyer was received as it was , I've decided to post some more 'sedate' designs here. These will be the patrol craft and smaller minelayers that I'm planning to add to my fleet over the next year or so. They are both going to be extremely small ships and pretty much in line with what one would expect from Siam... though the patrol ships will be a bit faster (24 knots) than people would expect in order to double as AA escorts for my *Dhonburi* class CDS.

So, here's the minelayer. She's very simple, perhaps a bit over-gunned for her size, but with aircraft becoming an increasing hazard, I'd prefer to over-gun than under-gun.

So, here's the minelayer. She's very simple, perhaps a bit over-gunned for her size, but with aircraft becoming an increasing hazard, I'd prefer to over-gun than under-gun.

## Quoted

ML-1, Siamese Minelayer laid down 1936

Displacement:

200 t light; 210 t standard; 245 t normal; 273 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

164.04 ft / 164.04 ft x 20.51 ft x 4.92 ft (normal load)

50.00 m / 50.00 m x 6.25 m x 1.50 m

Armament:

2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.23lbs / 6.00kg shells, 1936 Model

Dual purpose guns in a deck mount with hoist

on centreline forward

6 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (2x3 guns), 0.22lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1936 Model

Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts

on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring

3 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (1x3 guns), 0.22lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1936 Model

Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount

on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring

Weight of broadside 28 lbs / 13 kg

Shells per gun, main battery: 300

Armour:

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm

2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -

3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -

- Conning tower: 0.79" / 20 mm

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion motors,

Geared drive, 2 shafts, 800 shp / 597 Kw = 15.43 kts

Range 2,000nm at 15.43 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 62 tons

Complement:

30 - 40

Cost:

£0.070 million / $0.279 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 4 tons, 1.5 %

Armour: 4 tons, 1.8 %

- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Armament: 4 tons, 1.5 %

- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.3 %

Machinery: 22 tons, 9.2 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 116 tons, 47.3 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 45 tons, 18.2 %

Miscellaneous weights: 54 tons, 22.0 %

Storage for 72 mines (1500 lbs each)

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

603 lbs / 274 Kg = 44.7 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09

Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m

Roll period: 11.6 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.28

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.87

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck

Block coefficient: 0.518

Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 12.81 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 38

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):

- Stem: 14.76 ft / 4.50 m

- Forecastle (20 %): 9.02 ft / 2.75 m

- Mid (50 %): 8.20 ft / 2.50 m

- Quarterdeck (15 %): 7.38 ft / 2.25 m

- Stern: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m

- Average freeboard: 8.62 ft / 2.63 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 67.2 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118.2 %

Waterplane Area: 2,279 Square feet or 212 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 185 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 142 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.86

- Longitudinal: 3.62

- Overall: 1.00

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent

Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

And this is the patrol/escort ship. She's rather fast as far as WW sloops go (25 knots) to enable her to serve in formation with the *Dhonburi*. She's got a moderately heavy collection of 37mm and 20mm AA guns, and 2 twin 76mm DP mounts. She'll also mount ASDIC and depth charges in order to serve as an ASW screening vessel. Additionally, she'll also carry berthing for two squads of Marines (1 ton per man- a bunk, a locker and a couple of basic loads) to better help her conduct customs inspections during peacetime... and to give her the chance to capture the odd merchantman or disabled sub during wartime should the opportunity arise.

## Quoted

Chiang Dao, Siamese Patrol Sloop laid down 1936

Displacement:

600 t light; 625 t standard; 674 t normal; 713 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

236.23 ft / 229.66 ft x 26.25 ft x 9.84 ft (normal load)

72.00 m / 70.00 m x 8.00 m x 3.00 m

Armament:

4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.23lbs / 6.00kg shells, 1936 Model

Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists

on centreline ends, evenly spread

4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1936 Model

Dual purpose guns in deck mounts

on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring

12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 0.22lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1936 Model

Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts

on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring

Weight of broadside 62 lbs / 28 kg

Shells per gun, main battery: 300

Armour:

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm

2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -

3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -

- Conning tower: 0.98" / 25 mm

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion motors,

Geared drive, 2 shafts, 7,000 shp / 5,222 Kw = 24.95 kts

Range 3,000nm at 12.80 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 87 tons

Complement:

65 - 85

Cost:

£0.291 million / $1.163 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 8 tons, 1.2 %

Armour: 12 tons, 1.9 %

- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Armament: 11 tons, 1.6 %

- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %

Machinery: 196 tons, 29.1 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 336 tons, 49.8 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 74 tons, 10.9 %

Miscellaneous weights: 48 tons, 7.1 %

8 tons - ASDIC

20 tons - 40 depth charges

20 tons - Marine berthing (20 Marines)

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

845 lbs / 383 Kg = 62.6 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12

Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.3 m

Roll period: 12.1 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.25

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.42

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck

and transom stern

Block coefficient: 0.398

Length to Beam Ratio: 8.75 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 17.74 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):

- Stem: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m

- Forecastle (20 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m

- Mid (50 %): 12.30 ft / 3.75 m

- Quarterdeck (10 %): 11.48 ft / 3.50 m

- Stern: 10.66 ft / 3.25 m

- Average freeboard: 12.70 ft / 3.87 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 112.5 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.0 %

Waterplane Area: 3,845 Square feet or 357 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 131 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 41 lbs/sq ft or 198 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.82

- Longitudinal: 6.09

- Overall: 1.00

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped

Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Carthaginian" (Feb 29th 2008, 5:56am)

Don't know about ASDIC, seems a bunch of nations have it and many don't. No clue as to Siam/ Denmark. RAM indicated the Dutch didn't so until recently I've been installing hydrophones until Phillips Electronics came through for me...

## Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk

I note that Chiang Dao is trimmed down heavily. That means you likely have extra seakeeping. Now, light small craft can have less than 1.0 comp hull, so you can push the speed up if you want.

I kept it that strong for survivability reasons; seakeeping is maxed out at 50% anyway, nothing more to gain. I know I could have made them a bit faster, but I don't really need to. They can operate with their intended flagship pretty well, so that works in this case.

## Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser KirkDon't know about ASDIC, seems a bunch of nations have it and many don't. No clue as to Siam/ Denmark. RAM indicated the Dutch didn't so until recently I've been installing hydrophones until Phillips Electronics came through for me...

Again, it's one of those things that I'm unsure on due to lack of documentation. Probably Siam didn't have it, but I designed this ship with multi-role in mind. Would simple hydrophones be allowable for Siam? If so, I could easily change it.

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "Carthaginian" (Feb 29th 2008, 6:11am)

Bulgaria currently has empty slip space to build an example for Siam, if desired, and a willingness to sell the design for licensed Siamese home production.

## Quoted

Struma, Bulgarian Minesweeper laid down 1935

Displacement:

430 t light; 442 t standard; 499 t normal; 544 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

192.75 ft / 189.00 ft x 27.00 ft x 9.00 ft (normal load)

58.75 m / 57.61 m x 8.23 m x 2.74 m

Armament:

2 - 2.99" / 76.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.39lbs / 6.08kg shells, 1935 Model

Dual purpose guns in deck mount

on centreline forward

2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1935 Model

Quick firing guns in deck mounts

on side, all amidships

4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1935 Model

Machine guns in deck mounts

on side, evenly spread

Weight of broadside 31 lbs / 14 kg

Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 1.57" / 40 mm - -

2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion motors,

Direct drive, 2 shafts, 1,098 shp / 819 Kw = 16.00 kts

Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 101 tons

Complement:

52 - 68

Cost:

£0.115 million / $0.461 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 4 tons, 0.8 %

Armour: 5 tons, 1.0 %

- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Armament: 5 tons, 1.0 %

- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Machinery: 31 tons, 6.3 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 209 tons, 42.0 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 69 tons, 13.9 %

Miscellaneous weights: 180 tons, 36.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

1,104 lbs / 501 Kg = 82.4 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06

Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m

Roll period: 12.8 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck

and transom stern

Block coefficient: 0.380

Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 16.50 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):

- Stem: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m

- Forecastle (20 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m

- Mid (50 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m

- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m

- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m

- Average freeboard: 10.32 ft / 3.15 m

Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.4 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118.2 %

Waterplane Area: 3,228 Square feet or 300 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 179 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 37 lbs/sq ft or 183 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.94

- Longitudinal: 4.34

- Overall: 1.09

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent

Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Ships in class:Struma,Kamchiya,Varbitsa(all building Q3/35, finish Q4/35, working up Q1/36)

## Quoted

Salzata, Bulgarian Subchaser laid down 1937

Displacement:

269 t light; 277 t standard; 357 t normal; 422 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

174.75 ft / 174.75 ft x 23.00 ft x 7.50 ft (normal load)

53.26 m / 53.26 m x 7.01 m x 2.29 m

Armament:

2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1936 Model

Breech loading guns in deck mounts

on centreline ends, evenly spread

2 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1936 Model

Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts

on side, all amidships

3 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1936 Model

Machine guns in deck mounts

on side, evenly spread

Weight of broadside 28 lbs / 13 kg

Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

2nd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -

3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -

- Conning tower: 0.50" / 13 mm

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion motors,

Direct drive, 2 shafts, 2,200 shp / 1,641 Kw = 20.00 kts

Range 6,000nm at 14.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 144 tons

Complement:

40 - 53

Cost:

£0.110 million / $0.442 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 3 tons, 1.0 %

Armour: 2 tons, 0.6 %

- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Armament: 2 tons, 0.5 %

- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.2 %

Machinery: 62 tons, 17.3 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 147 tons, 41.2 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 89 tons, 24.9 %

Miscellaneous weights: 54 tons, 15.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

681 lbs / 309 Kg = 50.5 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10

Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m

Roll period: 11.8 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.10

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.42

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck

and transom stern

Block coefficient: 0.415

Length to Beam Ratio: 7.60 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 15.63 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):

- Stem: 14.54 ft / 4.43 m

- Forecastle (20 %): 9.25 ft / 2.82 m

- Mid (50 %): 9.25 ft / 2.82 m

- Quarterdeck (15 %): 9.25 ft / 2.82 m

- Stern: 9.25 ft / 2.82 m

- Average freeboard: 9.67 ft / 2.95 m

Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.4 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114.2 %

Waterplane Area: 2,592 Square feet or 241 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 172 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 31 lbs/sq ft or 150 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.85

- Longitudinal: 4.45

- Overall: 1.00

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent

Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Ships in class named after the Seven Rila Lakes of Bulgaria

## Quoted

LBP-01, Siamese Partol Boat laid down 1936

Displacement:

160 t light; 168 t standard; 192 t normal; 211 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

162.39 ft / 157.48 ft x 16.40 ft x 6.56 ft (normal load)

49.50 m / 48.00 m x 5.00 m x 2.00 m

Armament:

2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1936 Model

Dual purpose guns in a deck mount with hoist

on centreline forward

12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1936 Model

Dual purpose guns in deck mounts

on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring

8 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1936 Model

Machine guns in deck mounts

on side, evenly spread

Weight of broadside 30 lbs / 14 kg

Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Armour:

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm

2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -

- Conning tower: 0.79" / 20 mm

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion motors,

Geared drive, 2 shafts, 1,400 shp / 1,044 Kw = 18.75 kts

Range 3,000nm at 12.55 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 43 tons

Complement:

25 - 33

Cost:

£0.075 million / $0.302 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 4 tons, 2.0 %

Armour: 6 tons, 2.9 %

- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Armament: 5 tons, 2.6 %

- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.3 %

Machinery: 39 tons, 20.5 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 93 tons, 48.2 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 32 tons, 16.5 %

Miscellaneous weights: 19 tons, 9.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

277 lbs / 126 Kg = 20.5 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09

Metacentric height 0.4 ft / 0.1 m

Roll period: 11.0 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.44

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck

Block coefficient: 0.396

Length to Beam Ratio: 9.60 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 12.55 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 19.40 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):

- Stem: 13.94 ft / 4.25 m

- Forecastle (20 %): 8.20 ft / 2.50 m

- Mid (50 %): 6.56 ft / 2.00 m

- Quarterdeck (15 %): 5.74 ft / 1.75 m

- Stern: 4.92 ft / 1.50 m

- Average freeboard: 7.27 ft / 2.22 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.6 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 81.3 %

Waterplane Area: 1,587 Square feet or 147 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 144 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 137 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.86

- Longitudinal: 4.09

- Overall: 1.00

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate

Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

## Quoted

Displacement:

3,900 t light; 4,224 t standard; 4,631 t normal; 4,956 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

328.08 ft / 328.08 ft x 60.70 ft x 14.76 ft (normal load)

100.00 m / 100.00 m x 18.50 m x 4.50 m

Armament:

4 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (2x2 guns), 771.62lbs / 350.00kg shells, 1936 Model

Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)

on centreline ends, evenly spread

4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.23lbs / 6.00kg shells, 1936 Model

Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists

on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts

8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (4x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1936 Model

Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists

on side, all amidships

12 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 1.65lbs / 0.75kg shells, 1936 Model

Dual purpose guns in deck mounts

on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts

Weight of broadside 3,267 lbs / 1,482 kg

Shells per gun, main battery: 125

Armour:

- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)

Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 164.04 ft / 50.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m

Ends: Unarmoured

Main Belt covers 77 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 5.91" / 150 mm

2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm

3rd: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm

4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion motors,

Geared drive, 2 shafts, 4,800 shp / 3,580 Kw = 16.07 kts

Range 4,000nm at 16.07 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 732 tons

Complement:

279 - 364

Cost:

£2.402 million / $9.610 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 357 tons, 7.7 %

Armour: 1,278 tons, 27.6 %

- Belts: 456 tons, 9.9 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Armament: 280 tons, 6.0 %

- Armour Deck: 507 tons, 10.9 %

- Conning Tower: 35 tons, 0.8 %

Machinery: 135 tons, 2.9 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,080 tons, 44.9 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 731 tons, 15.8 %

Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

6,193 lbs / 2,809 Kg = 9.2 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18

Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m

Roll period: 14.2 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.14

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck

Block coefficient: 0.551

Length to Beam Ratio: 5.41 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 18.11 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):

- Stem: 14.76 ft / 4.50 m

- Forecastle (20 %): 9.84 ft / 3.00 m

- Mid (50 %): 8.20 ft / 2.50 m

- Quarterdeck (20 %): 8.20 ft / 2.50 m

- Stern: 9.02 ft / 2.75 m

- Average freeboard: 9.25 ft / 2.82 m

Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70.4 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 81.8 %

Waterplane Area: 13,914 Square feet or 1,293 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 119 lbs/sq ft or 580 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.94

- Longitudinal: 1.71

- Overall: 1.00

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent

Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Speaking of which... 16 knots is rather low... I'd advise at least a 20-knot speed just to keep her out of the way of the real battleships. At 16 knots she's just a target

I'd see a 6x8" 21-knot or even 25-knot ship being significantly more useful than this.

## Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

She reminds me more of the OTL Swedish pansarskepps, but slower.

She's a stretched copy of

## Quoted

Originally posted by BrockpaineSpeaking of which... 16 knots is rather low... I'd advise at least a 20-knot speed just to keep her out of the way of the real battleships. At 16 knots she's just a target

I was inspired as much by the WW USA's monitors as I was the RL

## Quoted

Originally posted by BrockpaineI'd see a 6x8" 21-knot or even 25-knot ship being significantly more useful than this.

Why? It would still be in danger of being caught by battleships which could kill it, and would only be a much larger target upon being caught. I have designs for a 24 knot, 2500 ton (light) ship, but she's only armed with 130mm guns and armored against the same.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Carthaginian" (Mar 10th 2008, 3:59pm)

## Quoted

Tapi, Siamese Anti-Aircraft Escort laid down 1937

Displacement:

500 t light; 524 t standard; 576 t normal; 618 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

239.52 ft / 229.66 ft x 26.25 ft x 8.20 ft (normal load)

73.00 m / 70.00 m x 8.00 m x 2.50 m

Armament:

4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.23lbs / 6.00kg shells, 1937 Model

Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists

on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring

8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.65lbs / 0.75kg shells, 1937 Model

Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts

on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring

Weight of broadside 66 lbs / 30 kg

Shells per gun, main battery: 300

Armour:

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 1.97" / 50 mm - 1.97" / 50 mm

2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -

- Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:

Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,

Geared drive, 2 shafts, 11,995 shp / 8,948 Kw = 29.05 kts

Range 2,500nm at 15.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 95 tons

Complement:

58 - 76

Cost:

£0.335 million / $1.340 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 8 tons, 1.4 %

Armour: 17 tons, 3.0 %

- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Armament: 14 tons, 2.5 %

- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0.5 %

Machinery: 264 tons, 45.8 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 210 tons, 36.4 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 77 tons, 13.3 %

Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

248 lbs / 112 Kg = 18.3 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21

Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m

Roll period: 11.3 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.30

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.93

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck

and transom stern

Block coefficient: 0.408

Length to Beam Ratio: 8.75 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 17.71 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 71 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.90 degrees

Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m

Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):

- Stem: 17.22 ft / 5.25 m

- Forecastle (20 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m

- Mid (65 %): 11.48 ft / 3.50 m

- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.48 ft / 3.50 m

- Stern: 11.48 ft / 3.50 m

- Average freeboard: 12.51 ft / 3.81 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 160.5 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153.1 %

Waterplane Area: 3,870 Square feet or 359 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 77 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 129 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.50

- Longitudinal: 3.48

- Overall: 0.61

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped

Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

## Quoted

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1936

Displacement:

350 t light; 369 t standard; 414 t normal; 450 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

173.88 ft / 173.88 ft x 24.61 ft x 8.20 ft (normal load)

53.00 m / 53.00 m x 7.50 m x 2.50 m

Armament:

2 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 33.07lbs / 15.00kg shells, 1936 Model

Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists

on centreline ends, evenly spread

4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.65lbs / 0.75kg shells, 1936 Model

Dual purpose guns in deck mounts

on side, all amidships

6 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1936 Model

Machine guns in deck mounts

on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts

Weight of broadside 73 lbs / 33 kg

Shells per gun, main battery: 250

Armour:

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 1.57" / 40 mm - 1.57" / 40 mm

2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -

- Conning tower: 1.57" / 40 mm

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion motors,

Geared drive, 2 shafts, 3,000 shp / 2,238 Kw = 20.05 kts

Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 81 tons

Complement:

45 - 59

Cost:

£0.164 million / $0.656 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 8 tons, 2.0 %

Armour: 11 tons, 2.7 %

- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Armament: 9 tons, 2.2 %

- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.5 %

Machinery: 84 tons, 20.3 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 213 tons, 51.4 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 64 tons, 15.6 %

Miscellaneous weights: 33 tons, 8.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

737 lbs / 334 Kg = 24.1 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13

Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m

Roll period: 11.8 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.67

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck

Block coefficient: 0.413

Length to Beam Ratio: 7.07 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 13.19 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 30

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):

- Stem: 15.58 ft / 4.75 m

- Forecastle (20 %): 12.30 ft / 3.75 m

- Mid (50 %): 11.48 ft / 3.50 m

- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.66 ft / 3.25 m

- Stern: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m

- Average freeboard: 11.70 ft / 3.57 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.2 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.7 %

Waterplane Area: 2,655 Square feet or 247 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 148 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 38 lbs/sq ft or 184 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.79

- Longitudinal: 8.42

- Overall: 1.00

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate

Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

33t - Misc. Weight

-------------------------

15t - Hydrophone array

10t - 40 depth charges (225kg each)

8t - small brig (5 man capacity)

## Quoted

Originally posted by Carthaginian

A slow PGB design for fisheries protection and general/ASW patrol duties. The hydrophones and depth charges in the design are oversized and inefficient to reflect their experimental status.

If you're trying 'homegrown' designs that might make sense, otherwise you have friends with first line gear

RA once noted on one of my small designs that a bow in the 6m range is useful for most seas, regardless of seaboat rating. May not be needed for the south china sea, but likely doesn't hurt anything to have a rise at the bow.

Other than that, looks pretty good.

## Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk

## Quoted

Originally posted by Carthaginian

The hydrophones and depth charges in the design are oversized and inefficient to reflect their experimental status.

If you're trying 'homegrown' designs that might make sense, otherwise you have friends with first line gear

Well, Siam likes those friends, and would keep them.

Thus, our second-line ships feature second-line gear- home-made copies of the Dutch equipment- in order to keep from over stressing our suppliers. I

## Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser KirkRA once noted on one of my small designs that a bow in the 6m range is useful for most seas, regardless of seaboat rating. May not be needed for the south china sea, but likely doesn't hurt anything to have a rise at the bow.

Well, to get to 6m, I'd have to limit my over-the-prow firing to long ranges. The flush-deck design just seemed simpler to design and construct. I think it'll be adequate for it's intended task.

## Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser KirkOther than that, looks pretty good.

Thanks!

I decided that I didn't like the prior light destroyer that I posted here... primarily because after careful consideration, I decided that it wasn't going to have the necessary deckspace to hold what I wanted to to. So, here's a revised version of the ship.

Deciding that the 330 ton*Surasdra* class torpedo boats were too light to be used in fleet duties, the Royal Siamese Navy put forth a call for a design that could actually serve as a blue-water escort for Siamese capital ships. The result is the *Bang Pa Kong* class light destroyer. Though smaller and slower than many destroyers fielded by other nation, the *Bang Pa Kong* more than meets the needs of Siam.

Her main guns are dual purpose 100mm guns derived from the*Maeklong*'s anti-aircraft battery, arranged with one mount forward and two aft. A quartet of 37mm AA mounts are also mounted to protect the ship and whatever it's escorting from enemy aircraft. Finally, a quintuple torpedo mount, armed with 500mm torpedoes, provides striking power against large vessels.

Bang Pa Kong, Siamese Coastal Destroyer laid down 1936

Displacement:

815 t light; 851 t standard; 980 t normal; 1,084 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

285.45 ft / 275.59 ft x 27.07 ft x 11.48 ft (normal load)

87.00 m / 84.00 m x 8.25 m x 3.50 m

Armament:

3 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30.86lbs / 14.00kg shells, 1936 Model

Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists

on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft

8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.65lbs / 0.75kg shells, 1936 Model

Dual purpose guns in deck mounts

on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring

Weight of broadside 106 lbs / 48 kg

Shells per gun, main battery: 250

5 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 1.57" / 40 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 1.57" / 40 mm

2nd: 1.57" / 40 mm - -

- Conning tower: 1.57" / 40 mm

Machinery:

Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,

Geared drive, 2 shafts, 20,000 shp / 14,920 Kw = 31.06 kts

Range 4,500nm at 15.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 233 tons

Complement:

86 - 113

Cost:

£0.546 million / $2.182 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 13 tons, 1.3 %

Armour: 17 tons, 1.8 %

- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Armament: 14 tons, 1.4 %

- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0.3 %

Machinery: 457 tons, 46.7 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 307 tons, 31.3 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 165 tons, 16.8 %

Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 2.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

320 lbs / 145 Kg = 10.5 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11

Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m

Roll period: 12.2 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has rise forward of midbreak

and transom stern

Block coefficient: 0.400

Length to Beam Ratio: 10.18 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 19.17 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 69 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 26.60 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):

- Stem: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m

- Forecastle (20 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m

- Mid (50 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m (8.20 ft / 2.50 m aft of break)

- Quarterdeck (15 %): 8.20 ft / 2.50 m

- Stern: 8.20 ft / 2.50 m

- Average freeboard: 13.01 ft / 3.97 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 164.0 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 77.6 %

Waterplane Area: 4,766 Square feet or 443 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 78 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 143 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.51

- Longitudinal: 2.96

- Overall: 0.61

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped

Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

20t - Misc. Weight

-------------------------

8t - Hydrophone array

4t - Depth charges

8t - 5 x 500mm torpedoes

Deciding that the 330 ton

Her main guns are dual purpose 100mm guns derived from the

Bang Pa Kong, Siamese Coastal Destroyer laid down 1936

Displacement:

815 t light; 851 t standard; 980 t normal; 1,084 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

285.45 ft / 275.59 ft x 27.07 ft x 11.48 ft (normal load)

87.00 m / 84.00 m x 8.25 m x 3.50 m

Armament:

3 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30.86lbs / 14.00kg shells, 1936 Model

Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists

on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft

8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.65lbs / 0.75kg shells, 1936 Model

Dual purpose guns in deck mounts

on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring

Weight of broadside 106 lbs / 48 kg

Shells per gun, main battery: 250

5 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 1.57" / 40 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 1.57" / 40 mm

2nd: 1.57" / 40 mm - -

- Conning tower: 1.57" / 40 mm

Machinery:

Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,

Geared drive, 2 shafts, 20,000 shp / 14,920 Kw = 31.06 kts

Range 4,500nm at 15.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 233 tons

Complement:

86 - 113

Cost:

£0.546 million / $2.182 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 13 tons, 1.3 %

Armour: 17 tons, 1.8 %

- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Armament: 14 tons, 1.4 %

- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %

- Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0.3 %

Machinery: 457 tons, 46.7 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 307 tons, 31.3 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 165 tons, 16.8 %

Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 2.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

320 lbs / 145 Kg = 10.5 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11

Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m

Roll period: 12.2 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has rise forward of midbreak

and transom stern

Block coefficient: 0.400

Length to Beam Ratio: 10.18 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 19.17 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 69 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 26.60 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):

- Stem: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m

- Forecastle (20 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m

- Mid (50 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m (8.20 ft / 2.50 m aft of break)

- Quarterdeck (15 %): 8.20 ft / 2.50 m

- Stern: 8.20 ft / 2.50 m

- Average freeboard: 13.01 ft / 3.97 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 164.0 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 77.6 %

Waterplane Area: 4,766 Square feet or 443 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 78 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 143 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.51

- Longitudinal: 2.96

- Overall: 0.61

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped

Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

20t - Misc. Weight

-------------------------

8t - Hydrophone array

4t - Depth charges

8t - 5 x 500mm torpedoes

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "Carthaginian" (Apr 18th 2008, 10:49pm)

## Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn

Not a bad design considering Siams limited resources. How many will be build?

I'm planning at least one 6-unit production run for 1937. Further ships could be possible during 1938. I would need to contract some dock space from a willing nation to build 3 of the units, however, as Siam only has 3 drydocks capable of holding ships of this size.

Unfortunately, you can only do so much with a Type 0 drydock.

## Quoted

Originally posted by Carthaginian

## Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn

Not a bad design considering Siams limited resources. How many will be build?

I'm planning at least one 6-unit production run for 1937. Further ships could be possible during 1938. I would need to contract some dock space from a willing nation to build 3 of the units, however, as Siam only has 3 drydocks capable of holding ships of this size.

Unfortunately, you can only do so much with a Type 0 drydock.

In 1937 I left a space in my program for buying used vessels, so I have three quarters with only one ship on the slips (on a D1). I'll essentially have one Type 2, three Type 1s, and 4 Type 0s available. If I don't have any purchase deals in the works by Q1/37, I'll either start a pair of DDs or a series of minesweepers in Q2: if Siam would like to use the empty spaces, tell me in Q1 before I start building.

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