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Build Times

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Kaiser Kirk

Lightbringer and former European Imperialist

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1

Sunday, February 3rd 2008, 8:08am

Build Times

Howdy,

Trying to cobble together a building plan, since my current one only goes to Q4,1935...

A while ago there was a great long thread about build times for ships, and I think we decided on a new formula to come into play in 1936... but I don't recall the thread or the decision, nor is it in the Infrastructure rules.

Search found "Large Ship Construction Times" and "Economy of Scale" but that didn't conclude anything. Could somebody tell me a good search term, point me there, regurgitate the decision, amend the Infrastructure rules

Brockpaine

The Shadow

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Sunday, February 3rd 2008, 8:31am

While we're on infrastructure questions, how can I determine what I can purchase from abroad? Say, if I wanted to buy a used warship? (Perhaps I'm just missing it in the infrastructure thread...)

Hrolf Hakonson

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Sunday, February 3rd 2008, 12:06pm

Purchasing from abroad is relatively easy. If you want to buy a used warship, you and the seller work out a price (in tons or IP) and you pay it. Reasonable prices range from 150% percent of the tonnage of the ship (for a brand new ship being built in someone elses yards that you can't build yourself) down to 15% or so of the ships tonnage (for a ship that the owner is looking at scrapping if someone else doesn't buy it) and anywhere in between.

Hrolf Hakonson

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Sunday, February 3rd 2008, 12:09pm

RE: Build Times

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
Howdy,

Trying to cobble together a building plan, since my current one only goes to Q4,1935...

A while ago there was a great long thread about build times for ships, and I think we decided on a new formula to come into play in 1936... but I don't recall the thread or the decision, nor is it in the Infrastructure rules.

Search found "Large Ship Construction Times" and "Economy of Scale" but that didn't conclude anything. Could somebody tell me a good search term, point me there, regurgitate the decision, amend the Infrastructure rules


It's in the Rules Question thread here http://88.198.26.117/kunden/oponn/wbblit…191&sid=&page=7

Kaiser Kirk

Lightbringer and former European Imperialist

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Sunday, February 3rd 2008, 6:28pm

Thanks, Hrolf, looks like Option #1 :
Minimum construction time in months = (Light tonnage of hull / 1000 + (10 - (Light tonnage of hull / 3000))) / comp. hull strength

was semi-chosen. Only a couple of votes. Still I was under the impression it was chosen. Apparently I'm going to need a comp hull column :)

Nobody Answered Itherko's question on what to do about ships under construction.

I'd say simply sub in the new construction time as , but still limited to 3,000/Q. Chalk it up to the introduction of improved modular assembly and welding techniques.

I'd rather do that than pro-rate it old to new. Less fiddling.

Hrolf Hakonson

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Sunday, February 3rd 2008, 6:40pm

NOT divided by comp strength, that had really bad effects on destroyer build times.

Kaiser Kirk

Lightbringer and former European Imperialist

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Sunday, February 3rd 2008, 6:45pm

So just:
Minimum construction time in months = (Light tonnage of hull / 1000 + (10 - (Light tonnage of hull / 3000)))

Commodore Green

The Irish Legend

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Sunday, February 3rd 2008, 11:38pm

I ask the same question again...

Why are we messing about with something that works well already?

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Commodore Green" (Feb 3rd 2008, 11:40pm)

HoOmAn

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Sunday, February 3rd 2008, 11:39pm

Yeah, I back-up CGs question!

ShinRa_Inc

Mad Scientist at Work

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Monday, February 4th 2008, 12:19am

http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?threadid=4811&sid=

Quoted

Just something I feel the need to bring up...

Our economy rules seem to extend and prolong the building of larger ships far longer than designs of similar size took historically;

A 65k ton light Yamato took 49 months; 4 years, 1 month. Our economy would take the same design 74 months to complete; 6 years, 2 months.

A 34k light USS Indiana took 30 months; 2.5 years. Our economy would take 43 months; 3 years, 7 months.

A 44k light USS New Jersey took 33 months; 2 years, 9 months. Our economy would take 53 months; 4 years, 5 months.

Other examples are similar, but I'm not going to do the math on all of them; I think the point is pretty clear. For these larger ships, it's taking somewhere between half again, or twice(!) as long to build these ships as it should.

I'm not sure how the light displacement/1000 + 9 months rules came about, and it may work accurately for smaller ships, but there's something very wrong with it for the larger ships.

Commodore Green

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Monday, February 4th 2008, 12:44am

And this is a bad thing why????

It is just another level of control to prevent an overabundence of large vessels.

And am I right in thinking that all of these ships were built during a war economy??

And don't we have war economy rules already?

thesmilingassassin

The Chosen One

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Monday, February 4th 2008, 1:08am

Acctually the only wartime economy rules that I'm aware of is the double the output of factory's. Other than that there are no "wartime economy rules".

Economy rules are something that I've pushed for in the past but we've never even gotten people interested enough to entertain simple preposals for rules.

Id like to see economy based on factory levels, this in turn would require factory levels for all military branches. I know this was meant to be a naval sim but clearly we have interests all over the wide array of weapons and military branches.

Hrolf Hakonson

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Monday, February 4th 2008, 1:10am

War economy does NOTHING to speed up ship construction, so whether or not the countries involved were at a war footing doesn't matter.

It's a bad thing because it isn't realistic. If IJN Yamato took 49 months historically, it ought to be POSSIBLE to do that here. It will cost more per quarter to do that, but there's no reason it shouldn't be possible.


HOo, go back and look over the thread in question, you were in on that one up and down the line.

HoOmAn

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Monday, February 4th 2008, 1:19am

I´m against such radical chance of rules. We ran this SIM for 15 years with the rules we have and it worked fine for nearly everybody most of the time. No need to change anything.

thesmilingassassin

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Monday, February 4th 2008, 1:25am

The only simple thing I can think of right now is to bump up the ammount of tonnage able to be put into the design per month to 1,500 tons. That takes yamato to 52 months build time.

If we remove an additional 3 months off the light displacement/1000 + 9 months rule it is light displacement/1500 + 6 months putting Yamato bang on her historical build time of 49 months.

New Jersey taks 35 months (2 months longer) and Indiana, a smaller ship gets built slightly faster at 28 months (2 months faster).

It would be less radical a change and makes things closer.

Ithekro

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Monday, February 4th 2008, 1:31am

I was under the impression that war economy allowed one to put 1,200 tons of material per month into a project instead of 1,000 per month. I didn't use it during the war, because I didn't have enough material to spare to rush construction (plus it was a ground war). While that is only 2,400 more per year, it does a little to reduce time. (or was that the one where we divided the total light tonnage by 1,200 instead of 1,000 to get the time needed for construction, thus reducing the time needed to finish?)

Hrolf Hakonson

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Monday, February 4th 2008, 1:32am

The downside is that small ships get built faster: a 1500 ton destroyer is done in 7 months. That's the reason for the more complicated formula we came up with the last time this was discussed.

And it's important now because there's no Treaty constraining the countries, and because you never know, with the way things are going, when there's going to be a war. At least 4 countries are building ships over the old Cleito limits right now, how many more will be in 6 months?

Hrolf Hakonson

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Monday, February 4th 2008, 1:35am

Quoted

Originally posted by Ithekro
I was under the impression that war economy allowed one to put 1,200 tons of material per month into a project instead of 1,000 per month. I didn't use it during the war, because I didn't have enough material to spare to rush construction (plus it was a ground war). While that is only 2,400 more per year, it does a little to reduce time. (or was that the one where we divided the total light tonnage by 1,200 instead of 1,000 to get the time needed for construction, thus reducing the time needed to finish?)


Unless the minimum time rule is changed, you can't effectively USE even 1000 tons/month on a ship anyway. So you still end up with these ludicrously long build times, regardless of whether it's wartime or not.

thesmilingassassin

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Monday, February 4th 2008, 1:36am

Simple enough solution, cap the rule off at a minimum of 35,000 ton vessels. Any smaller and they stick to the regular peacetime build rates.

Hrolf Hakonson

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Monday, February 4th 2008, 1:39am

Then you have a hard edge case at 35,000 tons. Time to build drops substantially at 35,000 vs 34,999 tons. Why??? The formula was written the way it was to avoid that.
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