WesWorld

Good grief! Lots of different designs there. A few more than I'd have expected in 1935, I think.

IMHO I have to agree with Hrolf. What is the reasoning to have all those tanks? For example having their version of the Panzer I ahead of the rest of the world or their Christie T-26 tank even ahead of the curve makes no sense. If we go by historical decisions and terrain decisions many of those designs go out of the window.

The enemies they be facing are the Iberians, Dutch and British in Africa and the Argentinians plus the Brazilians in South America.In Africa the terrain will force them to build IMO vehicles with firepower, good armor and excellent combat ranges. IMO their recon vehicles will be wheeled with at least a 20mm gun or more, similar to the Italian vehicle in WW, the light attack vehicles will be canned after the first design and they will concentrate in something similar to OTL Somua as their main battle tank.

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Originally posted by perdedor99

The enemies they be facing are the Iberians, Dutch and British in Africa

The political situation would have to change drastically for the Dutch to be a foe.

As for the tanks- lots of models in a short span. Starting in 1926, but most in 1928-35, there are 12 models, sometimes multiples of the same type in the same year.
The HCH-5R Hunchback, with a single turreted 45mm seems a bit advanced for 1928, esp when your follow on guns are 37mm.
The heavies also seem a bit early- the 1931 would be a nice 1935, and the 1935 with the 55mm might be the heaviest armed around- there are some 75mms out there but I think those are howitzers.

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Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk


The political situation would have to change drastically for the Dutch to be a foe.
.

What I tried to say was possible foes and now that I think about it with Iberia being a Dutch ally that pretty much left the British as their main concern in Africa.

I tend to agree with hrolf and Kirk. You seem to have too many designs going on at once with several liniages going at the same time in addition to having multipul designs for the same role.

The Goliath is a fairly decent design but really doesn't have any preveous tank designs to base her looks/equipment on, without an FT-17 type WW1 design.

The Centurion seems replace the Goliath un-nessassarily but seems to build on experience gained from the Wasp, Stinger and Gazelle designs. These four tanks could be your standard armour outfit by themselves.

Trying to find a reason for the convergent models we could use the way the Empire is divided. Maybe two different trains of thought, one for Africa and the other for South America.

In Africa, due to the thick African Bush common to the areas of the SAE and the distance from supply centers a well armored vehicle with good firepower, good combat range is the way to go. Meanwhile South American territories of the Empire are smaller and more urbanized, and IIRC kinda of flat making a Christie Type tank feasible for the region.

But I tend to agree with Kirk the calibers of the main guns are too advanced for the dates given.

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Originally posted by perdedor99

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk


The political situation would have to change drastically for the Dutch to be a foe.
.

What I tried to say was possible foes and now that I think about it with Iberia being a Dutch ally that pretty much left the British as their main concern in Africa.

Ironically, one of SAE's potential foes is another Dutch Ally, the Italians. However that would primarily be an amphibious issue. The Kingdom of the Kongo has strong links to SAE, and would be favorably inclined to come to aid of SAE even if the rest of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands was nuetral.

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
Trying to find a reason for the convergent models we could use the way the Empire is divided. Maybe two different trains of thought, one for Africa and the other for South America.

In Africa, due to the thick African Bush common to the areas of the SAE and the distance from supply centers a well armored vehicle with good firepower, good combat range is the way to go. Meanwhile South American territories of the Empire are smaller and more urbanized, and IIRC kinda of flat making a Christie Type tank feasible for the region.

Good point about the two distinct theatre terrains.

Actually, one design that could work in both theaters is the Christie, operating on tracks or wheels as needed.

Wow.... Lot´s of comment.

Earlier tanks aren´t posted. I focused on what may still be around in 1935.

For planes it´s quite usual to have several producers offer their designs on a govermental specification. Why shouldn´t this be true for tanks too? Hence several designs to one spec and the Army choses what she wants. Please note some of the designs I posted are available as prototypes or pre-production units only.

Finally, I have little knowledge about tanks. I browsed a few websites and chosed from the pictures and data what looked interesting and tried to make a development tree out of the stuff. I did not waste much time on studying other WW-designs or historical reasons why x was build and y rejected. Most important to me was Hood agree to my stuff and rating it as reasonable...

For me WesWorld still is a naval sim. So minimum effort was spend in tanks.

So please bear with me. But I like the idea of having two different school of thoughts fighting for influence in South America and Africa....

I suspect the issue, to some of us, is that it looked like ALL those designs were adopted for service in the RSAA, which is exceedingly unlikely. Tanks simply were not purchased in any quantity after WWI until around the mid 1930s.

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Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
Actually, one design that could work in both theaters is the Christie, operating on tracks or wheels as needed.

The African terrain is punishing to vehicles and IIRC the Christie designs have some reliabily problems. In Africa with the supply and repair depots maybe hundred of miles away reliability will be a concern.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
I suspect the issue, to some of us, is that it looked like ALL those designs were adopted for service in the RSAA, which is exceedingly unlikely. Tanks simply were not purchased in any quantity after WWI until around the mid 1930s.

Completely agree.

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
Actually, one design that could work in both theaters is the Christie, operating on tracks or wheels as needed.

The African terrain is punishing to vehicles and IIRC the Christie designs have some reliabily problems. In Africa with the supply and repair depots maybe hundred of miles away reliability will be a concern.

Heh, in the 1930s, there isn't a motor vehicle built that won't have reliability problems....

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
Actually, one design that could work in both theaters is the Christie, operating on tracks or wheels as needed.

The African terrain is punishing to vehicles and IIRC the Christie designs have some reliabily problems. In Africa with the supply and repair depots maybe hundred of miles away reliability will be a concern.

Heh, in the 1930s, there isn't a motor vehicle built that won't have reliability problems....

Touche my friend.

My take on the South African armor with a little explanation for each and trying to make a development line for those vehicles.

Recon vehicles:
1) The Scout could have served in both parts of the Empire due to the date and could still be used by units in the interior of Africa.

2) The Wasp makes sense for South America. Having a radio makes it a rare specimen in 1930. A later date like 1932 also seems realistic.

3) The Stinger with a crew of two is no more than a failed prototype. By 1935 it should still be in the prototype stage.

Light attack tanks:

1) The Trapper should be the common tank to the Empire starting production in 1928 to 1929.

2) The Bullet makes sense for South America, entering service in units in 1933. Changing the caliber of the guns could be a response to outgun the Argentine 37mm armed tanks.

3) The Derviche is reliable enough to be in the niche of the light tank in Africa. Also that could explain the reason of keeping the 37mm gun and the increased armor.

4) The Gazelle IMO is no more than a prototype tank at this stage.

Medium attack tanks:

1) The Hunchback with a 37mm gun should be the standard tank of the Empire by maybe 1930. Changing the main guns to 45mm in South America by 1933-34 to be at par with the Bullet to ease supply seems reasonable.

2) The Cruiser should be no more than a test run and them declared a dead end. Maybe enough were produced for tests and nothing else.

3) The Trebuchet has already being mentioned as being a failed attempt to replace the Hunchback.

4) The Hussar with a reliable power train and engine makes sense for Africa with a 37mm gun. A 45mm armed one could be tested in South America to finally replace the Hunchback. While in Africa could be already in production the South American one could be still in the development stage.

5) Goliath designed for Africa but the problem with the engines could explain a replacement being seek after a very short run.

6) The Centurion could increase their armor to maybe 50mm and if made reliable enough maybe indeed be the heavy tank for the Empire. Still in development stage IMO.

Self propelled artillery vehicle:

1) The Mammoth should still be in the prototype stage with the improve model being version two of that prototype.


Feel free to discuss.

I could buy that time line, as i was reading them i was viewing alot of them as prototypes anyway

Sounds pretta much like what I had in mind....

Just noted an error and corrected the Hussars main gun caliber to 3,7cm....

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
I suspect the issue, to some of us, is that it looked like ALL those designs were adopted for service in the RSAA, which is exceedingly unlikely. Tanks simply were not purchased in any quantity after WWI until around the mid 1930s.

Seems I've jumped the gun on that then, I was building AT-17's (FT-17 clones) since the end of the war, now I have a surplus of the things. That said the French FT-17's were made in astounding numbers (3,500 were ordered before the end of the war!) and they spawned several clones.

By 1939 the French still had over 1,600 FT-17's in service.

If the most of the models are just prototypes of a run of 5 or so I can see it. For Africa proper nothing is really needed at a level above the SCT-1. It should be fine for policing duties. Maybe a few hundred being ordered and the older ones being slowly canabalised for spares.

The 7TP and BT5 are more like proper tanks for South America where there is more chance of being attacked. Theres even a small chance of encountering enemy armour there! I can see there being a need for a small amount of medium/heavy tanks there as well.