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21

Tuesday, November 29th 2005, 7:06pm

Sure, it happened, but how often? If it was something that wasn't more fluke than norm, why build ships with more than 4 main guns?

22

Tuesday, November 29th 2005, 7:30pm

To have a crushing volume of heavy fire

Quoted

If it was something that wasn't more fluke than norm, why build ships with more than 4 main guns?


Fisher's idea was to hit fast, hit hard, and keep hitting, and Dreadnought did that by packing twice the broadside weight of her contemporaries.

A CDS is limited in tonnage, so she can't play that game. But prior to Dreadnought the world's navies built scores of capital ships with only 4 main guns, and thought they could hit something at range if provided with a modern fire control system.

23

Tuesday, November 29th 2005, 7:41pm

Lots of pre-Dreadnoughts were built, agreed, but the expected battle ranges for those ships were a lot shorter than the ranges at which the later ships were expected to engage. Consider the difficulties Graf Spee had at the Battle of the River Platte getting hits, even with relatively modern fire control. Yes, this was exacerbated by the switching of targets, but still.....

24

Tuesday, November 29th 2005, 10:55pm

Quoted

And Slava hit Goeben on her first salvo, and several times thereafter in 1914.


You mean Evstafey.

One other thing, Russian pre-dreadnoughts aimed all guns on their squadron onto a single target; the flagship would designate the target and aim at it, and the other ships would make small changes to account for their position. It was as if they had a 16-gun ship shooting at a single target(in theory at least; I don't know how well it worked in practice).

25

Thursday, December 1st 2005, 7:37pm

Quoted

You mean Evstafey


I do. Thanks.

Quoted

One other thing, Russian pre-dreadnoughts aimed all guns on their squadron onto a single target; the flagship would designate the target and aim at it, and the other ships would make small changes to account for their position. It was as if they had a 16-gun ship shooting at a single target(in theory at least; I don't know how well it worked in practice).


One time it was practiced was the action against Goeben. The other ships in the Russian squadron were either out of range or had gotten incorrect range data. Their fire was consistently short. Estafey's was very accurate though, and hit Goeben hard enough to get her running away.

26

Friday, December 2nd 2005, 9:05pm

I have a design which might be of interest for you, the riksnyckln light battleship/ heavy CDS



Riksnyckeln, SWEDEN BBL laid down 1928

Displacement:
11 051 t light; 11 865 t standard; 12 250 t normal; 12 558 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
436,23 ft / 419,95 ft x 72,18 ft x 19,69 ft (normal load)
132,96 m / 128,00 m x 22,00 m x 6,00 m

Armament:
4 - 14,00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1 372,00lbs / 622,33kg shells, 1917 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
10 - 5,98" / 152 mm guns (5x2 guns), 107,15lbs / 48,60kg shells, 1912 Model
Quick firing guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships, 1 raised mount - superfiring
10 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns (5x2 guns), 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,24lbs / 0,11kg shells, 1928 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6 618 lbs / 3 002 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10,0" / 254 mm 215,22 ft / 65,60 m 11,52 ft / 3,51 m
Ends: 1,97" / 50 mm 196,85 ft / 60,00 m 11,52 ft / 3,51 m
7,87 ft / 2,40 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 1,57" / 40 mm 266,57 ft / 81,25 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 79 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 5,98" / 152 mm 10,0" / 254 mm
2nd: 1,57" / 40 mm 0,39" / 10 mm 0,98" / 25 mm

- Armour deck: 3,07" / 78 mm, Conning tower: 2,95" / 75 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 30 871 shp / 23 030 Kw = 23,30 kts
Range 4 000nm at 12,00 kts (Bunkerage = 693 tons)

Complement:
581 - 756

Cost:
£4,644 million / $18,575 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 827 tons, 6,8 %
Armour: 4 050 tons, 33,1 %
- Belts: 1 492 tons, 12,2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 1 059 tons, 8,6 %
- Armour Deck: 1 466 tons, 12,0 %
- Conning Tower: 34 tons, 0,3 %
Machinery: 961 tons, 7,8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 162 tons, 42,1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 199 tons, 9,8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0,4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17 441 lbs / 7 911 Kg = 12,7 x 14,0 " / 356 mm shells or 2,3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,03
Metacentric height 3,3 ft / 1,0 m
Roll period: 16,8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,98
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0,719
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,82 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,91 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27,89 ft / 8,50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21,33 ft / 6,50 m
- Mid (50 %): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Stern: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Average freeboard: 20,54 ft / 6,26 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78,5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 169,7 %
Waterplane Area: 25 801 Square feet or 2 397 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 716 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,90
- Longitudinal: 2,56
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent