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Commonwealth Adjustment

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Brockpaine

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21

Thursday, January 24th 2019, 3:06pm

Quoted from "Hood"

We could easily say those slips were always docks from 1 Jan 1920 in SIM terms and it would have no effect at all. All the ships built on the original slips could still have been built in those docks and if nothing got refitted in those intervening years 25 sim years then there is no advantage at all. Historically it changes nothing. Admittedly it changes future behaviour but its hardly a freebie and with only 5 sim years left for Oz its not a great advantage.

Mm... well, fair enough. If the proposal is to turn this

Quoted

Sydney, NSW (Cockatoo Island)
Type 3 Slip:
Type 2 Slip:

into this

Quoted

Sydney, NSW (Cockatoo Island)
Type 3 Drydock:
Type 2 Drydock:

And say that this was in fact the starting infrastructure for Australia (albeit never used as such), then I withdraw my objection.

One random question/comment from glancing at the updated encyclopedia entries: is this destroyer class the Aclarity or the Alacrity? I presume the former is just a misspelling drawn from the original entry, and it actually ought to be Alacrity.

ShinRa_Inc

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22

Thursday, January 24th 2019, 7:12pm

Much appreciated.

There are a lot of typos and misspellings sprinkled throughout the Australia data, and I'm correcting them as I find them, but I also plan on giving all the RAN ship names a thorough thrice-over once I have more of the basics nailed down. The Encyclopedia isn't done, I just needed to get that started so I could try condensing the 15 browser tabs I have open tracking down all the missing data in one place. Known issues so far include;

Australia's still-building flagships being named Wombat and Wallabie - Renamed Australia and New Zealand. Previous New Zealand becoming New Guinea.
There's no sim reports for the Dauntless and Firefly class DDs....I'm assuming they're straight repeats of the Alacrity class.
Albury class includes both Armidale and Armadale. I'm assuming one is a typo and needs revision.
Can't find any data on a pair of seaplane subs Foxy supposedly built.
There's also no sim report for the 4 MWF Minewarfare ships, so I'm assuming they're minelayer variants of his multipurpose ships.
Newest Destroyers and the Flight Deck Oilers were not named
Several ship names need to be cross-checked for conflicts (We try not to have multiple ships with the same name within the Commonwealth. I've also tried hard not to overlap with the USN)

A more ambitious project is to get ship graphics done up to my RCN standards, but that (understandably, I think), is more of a marathon project than a sprint.

Brockpaine

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23

Thursday, January 24th 2019, 8:20pm

If it would be of help to you, I can start going through the list, grab the current ship names, double-check for Commonwealth conflicts, and perhaps recommend some options for those DDs and oilers?

Brockpaine

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24

Thursday, January 24th 2019, 10:22pm

Shin, I quickly sorted through some of the Australian entries in the encyclopedia, with the objective of helping find duplicates, misspellings, etc. Here is my issues list thus far. I expect you already know about many of these. I can add to the list as I spot new issues...

*****


Funny Spellings:
-- the already-mentioned Alacrity / Aclarity
-- Aviation cruiser HMAS Erebus is sometimes misspelled Erebrus
-- HMAS Armidale and Armadale: Armidale is the correct spelling

*****


Known Duplicates:
-- RAN aviation cruisers Erebus and Terror replicate RCN Erebus and Terror
-- RAN Enterprise replicates HMS Enterprise and USS Enterprise
-- RAN Lion duplicates RN HMS Lion.
-- If you intent to rename the old New Zealand to New Guinea, then you should note that's the name of one of the Sydney-class cruisers.
-- RAN HMAS Augusta replicates USS Augusta. I also checked for Albany, but apparently the US isn't using it at the moment.
-- RAN HMAS Newcastle replicates RN HMS Newcastle.
-- RAN HMAS Jaguar replicates RN HMS Jaguar


*****


...Sorta Duplicates? These are close things but not necessarily straight duplicates
-- HMAS Defense sorta duplicates HMS Defender
-- HMAS Fox sorta duplicates HMS Foxhound
-- There's an HMAS Tasman and an HMAS Tasmania

Brockpaine

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25

Thursday, January 24th 2019, 10:36pm

Additionally, I can also suggest the following names for the Charon-class:
-- Charon
-- Capricorn
-- Contention
-- Crocodile
-- Cherub
-- Cyane
-- Chieftain
-- Caprice

I'm fairly certain none of these names have been duplicated, and my quick board search indicates they're not associated with a ship.

ShinRa_Inc

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26

Thursday, January 24th 2019, 10:53pm

Yeah, those are most of the ones I already caught.

the Sydney class New Guinea was the previous New Zealand I mentioned, I already adjusted those.

We objected to Enterprise when he built it and were ignored. We got to make fun of it in one of the Fleet Problems, at least. I was fairly sure there was an HMS Intrepid to conflict with the other one he built, but hadn't double-checked yet. I'm also surprised Endeavor and Endurance aren't in the RN somewhere. I'm debating what to do about Erebus and Terror (Canada and Oz both have historical ties to those names, and while the Canadian ones were built first, they're not particularly notable)

I also know he self-solved at least one of the name conflicts by eventually buying the previous ship (Dauntless).

p.s. - did you catch the request for a fresh upload of the Big Ass Map?

Brockpaine

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27

Thursday, January 24th 2019, 11:23pm

Quoted from "ShinRa_Inc"

p.s. - did you catch the request for a fresh upload of the Big Ass Map?

Yes, I saw that. I haven't yet had the time on my home computer to work out some technical issues with getting it back online.

Additionally, I only have the 1944-dated version of the map, which was the last time I know that territory changed hands. I don't have the starter map anywhere...

BruceDuncan

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28

Friday, January 25th 2019, 12:12am

Out of curiosity, what updates/corrections are required to the BA-Map?

ShinRa_Inc

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29

Friday, January 25th 2019, 12:32am

my concern was mostly that the first 3 links I dug up for it were dead, and it'd be nice to have it more easily accessible; trying to get a better feel for what Oz's territory encompasses and all that. Photobucket and Imageshack's decline have gutted a lot of old posts, unfortunately.

iirc, a cia.gov map was used as the base source for the WW map originally.

BruceDuncan

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30

Friday, January 25th 2019, 1:59am

Quoted from "ShinRa_Inc"

my concern was mostly that the first 3 links I dug up for it were dead, and it'd be nice to have it more easily accessible; trying to get a better feel for what Oz's territory encompasses and all that. Photobucket and Imageshack's decline have gutted a lot of old posts, unfortunately.

iirc, a cia.gov map was used as the base source for the WW map originally.


Ah. Thought that either errors had crept in or updates are needed. I usually refer to a copy of the map I keep on my hard drive and hadn't noticed that the existing links had gone bad.

Brockpaine

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31

Friday, January 25th 2019, 4:01am

I updated the link of the Big-Ass Map 1944. Please note that I can only link the 1944 version that I updated, because I didn't retain any of the prior versions on my hard-drive.

Updated the link both in the master map thread, and posted the link in the first post of Canis's larger map draft thread.

Hood

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32

Friday, January 25th 2019, 9:40am

The Lion clash is my bad, I named my newer battleship forgetting that the older Lion was still in RAN service. To solve this I don't mind renaming my ship to a V name to match her near-sisters, which in hindsight would have made more sense at the time.

There is indeed an HMS Intrepid, an I class cruiser.

Surprisingly there is no Endeavor or Endurance in the RN.

thesmilingassassin

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33

Friday, January 25th 2019, 10:51pm

I'd agree to converting the type 2 and 3 slips to dry dock's and Cockatoo island. As Hood said, there would be little change in what's already been built there and little benefit in 5 sim years time.

Hood

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34

Saturday, January 26th 2019, 10:40am

**hypnotic powers** what you thought was HMS Lion was really HMS Vengeance :D

I've made the name change, Lion is now Vengeance which fits better with her near-sisters.

thesmilingassassin

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35

Saturday, January 26th 2019, 10:55am

As long as NATO doesn't have an all members exercise Vengeance seems good but we all know which country has the more graceful looking "Vengeance" ;-)

ShinRa_Inc

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36

Monday, January 28th 2019, 3:04am

To be fair, your Vengeance is pretty long-in-tooth by now....

I'm mostly done making sense of where Oz was at the start of 1945. The biggest discrepancy I have at the moment is his OOB listing two seaplane subs that I can't find any stats for, or any record of them being built. Unless someone knows something I haven't been able to find, I'm going to assume they don't exist.

Here's what I have for a current OOB-

Quoted

Royal Australian Navy Order of Battle as of January 1945

[SIZE=3]RAN Home Fleet[/SIZE]

1st Battle Squadron - Sydney, NSW
Invincible class*
- BB Australia
- BB New Zealand

2nd Battle Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- BC Lion
- BC Leopard
- BC Jaguar

1st Scouting Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- CV Endevour
- CLV Enterprise

2nd Scouting Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- CV Endurance
- CLV Bounty (ex-Intrepid)

Commonwealth Training Squadron - Convict Bay, Bermuda
- CVT Pegasus (Under construction)
- CL Fox
- CL Fearless

3rd Seaplane Tender Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- AV Albatross
- AV Penguin
- AV Skua
- AV Pelican

1st Seaplane Cruiser Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- CPV Port Moresby
- CPV Port Headland
- CPV Port Macquarie

2nd Seaplane Cruiser Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- CPV Ballarat
- CPV Bathurst

1st Frigate Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- CF Tasmania
- CF New Guinea (ex-Bismarck)

2nd Cruiser Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- CL Sydney
- CL Melbourne
- CL Hobart (ex-Tasmania)
- CL (ex-New South Wales)

3rd Cruiser Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- CL Brisbane (ex-Queensland)
- CL Christchurch (ex-New Zealand)

4th Cruiser Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- CL Auckland
- CL Townsville
- CL Freemantle
- CL Cairns (ex-Newcastle)
- CL Rockhampton
- CL Wellington

5th Cruiser Squadron
- CLAA Albury
- CLAA Armidale
- CLAA Ararat
- CLAA Albany
- CLAA Alice Springs (ex-Armadale)
- CLAA Port Augusta

1st Destroyer Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- CL Launceston
- DD Admiralty Isl
- DD Keeling Isl
- DD Wessel Isl
- DD Norfolk Isl

2nd Destroyer Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- DD Charon
- DD Capricorn
- DD Cherub
- DD Caprice

3rd Destroyer Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- DD Alacrity
- DD Audacity
- DD Adventure
- DD Advantage
- DD Ambush

4th Destroyer Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- DD Dauntless
- DD Devastator
- DD Defence
- DD Defiance
- DD Desperate

5th Destroyer Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- DD Firefly
- DD Falcon
- DD Flanker
- DD Firefox
- DD Flamingo

1st Submarine Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- SS A-1
- SS A-2
- SS A-3
- SS A-4
- SS A-5
- SS A-6
- SS A-7
- SS A-8

2nd Submarine Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- SS B-1
- SS B-2
- SS B-3
- SS B-4
- SS B-5
- SS B-6
- SS B-7
- SS B-8
- SS B-9
- SS B-10

3rd Submarine Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- SS K-1
- SS K-2
- SS K-3
- SS K-4
- SS K-5
- SS K-6
- SS K-7
- SS K-8
- SS K-9

4th Submarine Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- SS K-10
- SS K-11
- SS K-12
- SS K-13
- SS K-14
- SS K-15
- SS K-16
- SS K-17
- SS K-18
- SS K-19
- SS K-20

5th Submarine Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- SSH-1
- SSH-2
- SSH-3
- SSA-1 (No stats, No records)
- SSA-2 (No stats, No records)


1st Sloop Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- DS FF-1
- DS FF-2
- DS FF-3
- DS FF-4
- DS FF-5
- DS FF-6
- DS FF-7
- DS FF-8
- DS FF-9
- DS FF-10
2nd Sloop Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- DS FF-11
- DS FF-12
- DS FF-13
- DS FF-14
- DS FF-15
- DS FF-16
- DS FF-17
- DS FF-18
- DS FF-19
- DS FF-20
3rd Sloop Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- DS OFF-21
- DS OFF-22
- DS OFF-23
- DS OFF-24
- DS OFF-25
- DS OFF-26
- DS OFF-27
- DS OFF-28
- DS OFF-29
- DS OFF-30
4th Sloop Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- DS OFF-31
- DS OFF-32
- DS OFF-33
- DS OFF-34
- DS OFF-35
- DS OFF-36
- DS OFF-37
- DS OFF-38
- DS OFF-39
- DS OFF-40

5th Sloop Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- DSM Osprey
- DSM Kestrel
- DSM Kookaburra
- DSM Bunjil
- DSM Cwa
- DSM Vulture (Minewarfare variant)
- DSM Buzzard (Minewarfare variant)
- DSM Condor (Minewarfare variant)
- DSM Kite (Minewarfare variant)

1st Assault Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- LVC Erebrus
- LVC Terror
- LPC Coral Sea
- LPC Carpentaria

Research Ships
- AGOR Discovery
- AGOR Odyssey

Fleet Oilers:
- AOV Flinders Range
- AOV Snowy Range


Reserves -


Reserve Composite Squadron - Sydney, NSW
- BC Tiger (1930)
- BC Panther (ex-HMS Princess Royal) (1933)
- CV Canberra (ex-HMS Argus)


Reserve Cruiser Squadron - Sydney, NSW
Chatham class
- CL Perth (ex-HMS Lowestoft) (1930)
- CL Darwin (ex- - CL Melbourne) (1933)
- CL Adelaide
- CL Brisbane (1929)
Port Shepstone class
- CL Port Shepstone
- CL Port St. Johns
- CL Port Alfred
- CL Porto Alegre
D-class
- CL Despatch
- CL Diomede
- CL Delhi
- CL Dunedin
- CL Durban
- CL Danae
- CL Dauntless
- CL Dragon

Reserve Destroyer Squadron - Sydney, NSW
Scott class
- DD Shakespeare
- DD Spencer
- DD Stuart
- DD Scott
- DD Bruce
- DD Campbell
- DD Wallace
- DD Mackay
- DD Malcom
- DD Montrose

U-class DDs
- DD Uproar
- DD Urge
- DD Ursula
- DD Utmost
- DD Ulster
- DD Urania
- DD Ulysses
- DD Urchin
- DD Unbeaten
- DD Undaunted
- DD United
- DD Unity
- DD Unruffled
- DD Unshaken
- DD Untiring
- DD Upholder

20 H class (R) (1935)


relevant notes;
- I've decided that several of Foxy's names that didn't work for me would be the names they were orders as, but completed and christened under whatever final names I designate (this is mostly to overcome the usual superstition against arbitrarily renaming ships)
- Everything is based at Sydney right now because I haven't decided how to split up and disperse the fleet yet.
- 5th Sloop squadron is Foxy's 1928 Multipurpose sloops, 4 of which were built as mine warfare ships. He never named them, but the SS report had them listed as Osprey class, so I attempted to name them along those lines.
- I plan to recommission several ships as Royal New Zealand Navy ships for prestige/political purposes. The RAN/RNZN will continue to be operated as a joint service, however.

Hood

Ugly Aircraft, Inc

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37

Monday, January 28th 2019, 9:33am

Looks good to me.

I never understood the whole NZ as part of Oz thing. I think its likely there would be some sloop assets in NZ.

Brockpaine

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38

Monday, January 28th 2019, 2:37pm

Quoted from "Hood"

I never understood the whole NZ as part of Oz thing. I think its likely there would be some sloop assets in NZ.

...I've often wondered about that, but I never thought I'd get any sort of coherent answer in the past.

What do their government arrangements look like? Is New Zealand its own dominion in a defense partnership with Australia, or is it viewed as part of Australian territory? I can... technically see why they were grouped for sim purposes, but I'd expect that at some point the Kiwis would demand their own home government to reflect their distinct circumstances from Australia proper.

Not a high necessity to answer this question immediately, but I am rather curious about how things would work, outside of the military being a joint service as referenced above.

thesmilingassassin

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39

Monday, January 28th 2019, 2:40pm

Quoted from "ShinRa_Inc"

To be fair, your Vengeance is pretty long-in-tooth by now....
No ones ever made that comment when referencing Warspite or Hood's looks. In Warspites case she was quite long in the tooth.

Hood

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40

Monday, January 28th 2019, 11:28pm

The inclusion of New Zealand as part of Australia seems to stem from shortly after the sim was created and as a byproduct of the original intention that the USA and GB superpowers would be NPCs, and so the decisions on how best to carve up the Empire into playable units had an infulence.

It also seems that there were some alt history ideas going on before Foxy took over, not sure how far these got but they do explain some of the reasons why NZ remained a State of Australia.
https://wesworld.jk-clan.de/index.php?pa…16900#post16900

However saying that there are inconsistencies, the biggest being that the Cleito Treaty and the WW Versailes Treaty were both clearly signed by an New Zealand as a Dominion. So when the sim started that was the intention that got waylaid for player grabs. Its not vital to sort, but I think the status needs clarifying. Militarily, I agree there is much merit in having New Zealand partnered with a federated Australian force due to costs and manpower and the few direct threats facing them.