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Refit question

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thesmilingassassin

The Chosen One

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1

Monday, February 19th 2018, 4:46am

Refit question

Which level of refit would the removal of 3" (76mm) AA guns without hoists and replacement with either 40mm or 2.95" guns fall under? 25% seems like a lot to remove mounts and their ammo lockers on deck.

Quoted

2.2.2.3 Level 2: Minor Refits (cost = 15%, except for ships of 2,999 t light or less --> 5%)
-Alterations to snorkel or periscopes: P
-Alterations to guns of 65mm and smaller served by hoists: T
-Changes to depth charge racks and throwers: T
-Changes to mine rails (mines carried on deck): T
-Changes to torpedo carriages: T
-Changes to gun directors: T
-Minor changes to superstructure (i.e. enclosing a bridge, adding a searchlight platform): T

2.2.2.4 Level 3: Major Refits (cost = 25%, except ships of 2,999 t light or less --> 15%)
-Changes to catapults and/or above-decks seaplane hangers: P
-Changes to deck mount or turret armor: P
-Changes to conning tower armor: P
-Changes to external armor belts: P (upper), D (ends, main)
-Changes to underwater torpedo tubes: D
-Changes to sonar: D
-Alterations to guns of 66mm-195mm not involving barbette alterations: P
-Refurbishment of internal fittings for life-extension purposes: P
-Changes to superstructure (i.e. lengthening or widening a deck, adding a deck house): P

Hood

Ugly Aircraft, Inc

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Monday, February 19th 2018, 2:03pm

65mm always seemed an odd cut-off point to me, can't think of many real-world guns in that calibre or why, as you say, a 75mm (or 76mm for that matter) deck mount would be any more problematic to remove than a 65mm one.

BruceDuncan

Ex chaos ordo

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Monday, February 19th 2018, 3:39pm

Quoted from "Hood"

65mm always seemed an odd cut-off point to me, can't think of many real-world guns in that calibre or why, as you say, a 75mm (or 76mm for that matter) deck mount would be any more problematic to remove than a 65mm one.


While I agree that the rule, as written, is problematic, I am unconvinced at this time whether it ought to be modified. Many of us, in refitting vessels, have either paid the costs as specified, or made decisions on whether to refit, or how to refit, a vessel upon it. While 65mm is an odd point to specify for the cut off (Did not Italy have weaponry in that caliber?) that alone does not convince me that a rules change is necessary. I would like to be convinced.

thesmilingassassin

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Monday, February 19th 2018, 10:18pm

Well, as you say many have already paid the price specified in the refit rules. However usually when one replaces guns of that caliber other modifications are done at the same time to older ships to bring them up to modern specs due to treaty constraints. Without any treaty's to force us to modernize instead of build new it seems expensive to replace, for example, 6x1 3" guns with 6x4 40mm mounts.

thesmilingassassin

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Saturday, February 24th 2018, 7:21am

Quoted from "Hood"

65mm always seemed an odd cut-off point to me, can't think of many real-world guns in that calibre or why, as you say, a 75mm (or 76mm for that matter) deck mount would be any more problematic to remove than a 65mm one.


To that end what would be the size cut off before it becomes a bigger job to remove deck mounts? I would think guns in the 100/150mm range would be the largest mounts without hoists easily removed

Hood

Ugly Aircraft, Inc

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Saturday, February 24th 2018, 11:55am

I'd say a basic single HA 3in or 4in mount or even a single 6in with a shield or something like the German twin 105mm could be craned off relatively easily. During WW2 such older mounts were changed pretty frequently and easily. Even for example RN twin 4in guns were added as and when they became available without serious refit operations.
I'd be happy with 105mm and up to 155mm as the absolute maximum limit for a deck mount.

As Bruce says though, at this late stage in the proceedings is it worth changing it?

Brockpaine

The Shadow

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Saturday, February 24th 2018, 7:25pm

Quoted from "Hood"

As Bruce says though, at this late stage in the proceedings is it worth changing it?

I think it's probably not worth it at this point...

thesmilingassassin

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Sunday, February 25th 2018, 4:42am

With regards to smaller ships its not really worth the effort, but larger ships....it just seems rather expensive to pay 25% of 35,000 tons for a simple AA mounting swap and placing ammo lockers on the deck.