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1

Wednesday, August 9th 2017, 5:16am

Russian Ships for 1948

Russia doesn't actually have a lot of new stuff on the books (yet) for 1948. Most of it just follows continuing programs designed to refresh some of the most aged categories in the VMF Rossii. However, there are a few things which are going to stand out.

  • The last two Avrora-class light cruisers, Ochakov and Oleg, are going to be laid down.
  • Four Admiral Kornilov-class cruisers being built, with the first two completed. (No additional hulls currently ordered.)
  • Carriers Reval and Kerch complete at the very end of the year.
  • Admiral Kolchak completes in the Black Sea, although she'll probably shift to the Baltic Sea Fleet for a bit.
  • Twelve new destroyers will be ordered, of the Udaloi-class.
  • There will be another few ships of the Project 83 Avantyurin class.
  • Five guardships based on the Project 83 Avantyurin will be built for the Caspian Sea Flotilla, replacing antiquated Project 03 Lilya class ships.
  • Four Project 84 Aleksandrit riverine icebreakers are on order.
  • Another two UNREP ships laid down - possibly more Elbrus-class Large Marine Tankers. This may result in some of the Betelgeuse-class Medium Marine Tankers being retired at the end of 1948. The Russians have an alternative on hand Project 85 Evropa, for a KKS or Complex Supply Ship designed to accompany carriers.
  • More fleet submarines of the K-41-class. These boats are basically best akin to the historical Zulu class submarines; and I'm considering a design that's basically a Whiskey class.
  • The Varyag-class escort cruisers might be retired, probably about the time that Admiral Kornilov-class ships (OTL Sverdlovs) start commissioning. I may add another 2-4 ships to the Kornilov class in order to carry the names forward.
  • The last addition to the Russian amphibious fleet came in 1934. I'm going to add some new Bol'shoy Desantny Korabl' (Large Landing Ships, most equivalent to a large LST) in 1948.

I've still got a fair bit of tonnage to play with, and most of the existing programs already cover most of the big gaps in the fleet (cruisers and destroyers falling obsolete, etc). The Russians are starting to get a bit more ruthless with scrapping old destroyers.

One project I'm looking at is Russia's force of five antisubmarine carriers - Canopus, Sirius, Orion, Castor, and Cygnus. This ships might've been recently converted as carriers, but they're all old collier hulls underneath it all. I'm debating the merits of retiring all five ships and replacing them with... what? I'm not really sure what to do here. On the one hand, I'd love to replace the five of them with a pair or even a quartet of Russian Colossus-class equivalents - second-line CVs from the get-go, never intended to be strike carriers like the Reval class. But if I wanted to do this, then I should've ordered the replacements years ago.

2

Wednesday, August 9th 2017, 5:18am

Kapitan Kazarsky-class, Russian Large Landing Ship laid down 1948

Displacement:
2,700 t light; 2,846 t standard; 3,210 t normal; 3,501 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
367.45 ft / 367.45 ft x 49.21 ft x 9.84 ft (normal load)
112.00 m / 112.00 m x 15.00 m x 3.00 m

Armament:
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 15.43lbs / 7.00kg shells, 1948 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1948 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 0.55" / 14.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1948 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 37 lbs / 17 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 3,500

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 5,279 shp / 3,938 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 6,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 655 tons

Complement:
213 - 277

Cost:
£0.864 million / $3.457 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 129 tons, 4.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,067 tons, 33.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 510 tons, 15.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,500 tons, 46.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,701 lbs / 3,039 Kg = 520.6 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 14.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.57

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.631
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.47 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.08 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.10 ft / 6.43 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13.42 ft / 4.09 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.42 ft / 4.09 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.42 ft / 4.09 m
- Stern: 13.42 ft / 4.09 m
- Average freeboard: 14.03 ft / 4.28 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 170.4 %
Waterplane Area: 14,200 Square feet or 1,319 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 179 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 57 lbs/sq ft or 277 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.19
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 1000 tons for cargo (up to 1000t cargo, 20x35t tanks, 40x18t armoured vehicles or light tanks, 400 troops @ 2t each)
- 50t for a big crane
- 50t for electronics
- 400t for miscellaneous gear

Notes:
- Due to the LST rule, actual construction cost is 1,950 tons (2700 - (miscwt/2))
- Design has bow ramp inside two folding bow doors (capable of beaching) and stern ramp able to disembark amphibious vehicles at water level (or alternately, unload into small landing ships).

3

Wednesday, August 9th 2017, 9:52am

A quartet of light carriers to replace Canopus et al makes sense. I'd go ahead and do it even if its over the 1950 cut-off date. There is no point artificially accounting for the end date otherwise there would be no point in building anything, even a ship that completes in Dec 1949!

I think a Colossus-esque clone would be a good move, a simple design that is effective and relatively cheap.

4

Wednesday, August 9th 2017, 2:53pm

So here's what I've got for a Russianized Colossus-class equivalent. Tentative airgroup is 60 planes, but I'm thinking of adjusting it down and picking up some slop for maintenance workshops and such.

According to my current line of thinking, I'd likely give them an airgroup with a stronger-than-normal section of Beriev Be-5 strike planes (and possibly some old Sukhoi Su-4 dive bombers converted to antisubmarine patrol). Call it...
- 30x Beriev Be-5s (torpedo/ASW bombers)
- 12x Sukhoi Su-4s (search/ASW aircraft)
- 18x Lavochkin La-9K (propeller fighters)

For an explanation of the current Russian carrier strategy, I'm building fleet carriers in a 2+1 pattern: two heavy strike carriers and then a single light carrier which specializes in CAP fighters. For instance, the two Azovs are in division with little Grengam, and the two Revals are going to be partnered with Afonskoye. Meanwhile, the escort carriers (Canopus et al) are assigned to protect the fleet train, collaborate with amphibious forces, train new aviators, etc.

Quoted

Fidonisi, Russian Aircraft Carrier laid down 1948

Displacement:
12,500 t light; 12,902 t standard; 15,510 t normal; 17,597 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
715.49 ft / 688.98 ft x 73.16 ft x 19.03 ft (normal load)
218.08 m / 210.00 m x 22.30 m x 5.80 m

Armament:
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 15.43lbs / 7.00kg shells, 1948 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1948 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 148 lbs / 67 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 1,000

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.18" / 30 mm 447.83 ft / 136.50 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.18" / 30 mm 447.83 ft / 136.50 m 19.03 ft / 5.80 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm 0.20" / 5 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Armour deck: 1.18" / 30 mm, Conning tower: 1.57" / 40 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 53,619 shp / 40,000 Kw = 26.66 kts
Range 12,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,695 tons

Complement:
694 - 903

Cost:
£4.745 million / $18.979 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 19 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 1,401 tons, 9.0 %
- Belts: 218 tons, 1.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 372 tons, 2.4 %
- Armament: 9 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 780 tons, 5.0 %
- Conning Tower: 21 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 1,310 tons, 8.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,770 tons, 37.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,010 tons, 19.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 4,000 tons, 25.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
41,304 lbs / 18,735 Kg = 3,208.8 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 6.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.566
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.42 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.87 ft / 8.80 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 28.87 ft / 8.80 m
- Mid (50 %): 28.87 ft / 8.80 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 28.87 ft / 8.80 m
- Stern: 28.87 ft / 8.80 m
- Average freeboard: 28.87 ft / 8.80 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 283.0 %
Waterplane Area: 35,709 Square feet or 3,317 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 190 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 97 lbs/sq ft or 472 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.88
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 3600 tons for 60 aircraft
- 75 tons for electronics
- 125 tons for ASW command center
- 50 tons for climatization gear
- 150 tons for other
4000 tons total

Electronics Suite:
- NR-140UVB aerial battle management radar (1 radar, 20 tons)
- NR-132 surface and air-search radar (2 radars, 15 tons)
- NR-136 height-finding and air-search radar (1 radar, 7.5 tons)
- NR-119 navigational and air-warning radar (1 radar, 2.5 tons)
- NR-160bis fire-control radar (1 radar, 7.5 tons)
- NR-170 AA fire-control radar (1 radar, 2.5 tons)
- Radar jammer/detector (2 units, 2 tons)
- French-built SAGEM HF/DF (3 tons)
- Sonar (8 tons)
- Diesel emergency electric generator (5 tons)
- Gunnery computer for 75mm guns (2 tons)

Ships in Class: (tentative names)
- Fidonisi
- Cape Sarych
- Tendra
- Kaliakra

5

Wednesday, August 9th 2017, 3:13pm

This is a lightly-updated variant of the Project 77 Kharkov and Project 77bis Serdityi class ships, with mild updates. These ships will probably replace the Voronezh-class destroyers.

Quoted

Udaloi (Project 77M), Russian Bol'shoy Protivolodochny Korabl' laid down 1948

Displacement:
2,500 t light; 2,749 t standard; 3,141 t normal; 3,454 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
473.15 ft / 459.32 ft x 42.98 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load)
144.21 m / 140.00 m x 13.10 m x 4.00 m

Armament:
6 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (3x2 guns), 79.37lbs / 36.00kg shells, 1948 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 15.43lbs / 7.00kg shells, 1948 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1948 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 0.55" / 14.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1948 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 544 lbs / 247 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 588
8 - 25.6" / 650 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm 0.59" / 15 mm

- Conning tower: 1.18" / 30 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 47,961 shp / 35,779 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 705 tons

Complement:
209 - 272

Cost:
£2.299 million / $9.195 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 68 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 15 tons, 0.5 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 10 tons, 0.3 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,172 tons, 37.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,055 tons, 33.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 641 tons, 20.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 190 tons, 6.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,437 lbs / 652 Kg = 21.4 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 12.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.43

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.424
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.69 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.57 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.95 ft / 7.30 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 23.29 ft / 7.10 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.64 ft / 6.90 m (14.76 ft / 4.50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Stern: 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Average freeboard: 19.01 ft / 5.80 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 148.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.3 %
Waterplane Area: 12,817 Square feet or 1,191 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 43 lbs/sq ft or 211 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.51
- Longitudinal: 1.83
- Overall: 0.58
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Ships in Class:
- Udaloi (Bold)
- Vikhrevoy (Vortex)
- Vspylchivyi (Spitfire)
- Boevoy (Militant)
- Bditelnyi (Watchful)
- Ostorozhnyi (Careful)
- Okrylennyi (Winged)
- Velichavyi (Stately, Majestic)
- Volevoy (Volitional)
- Bezboyaznennyi (Dauntless)
- Bezotkaznyi (Troubleproof)
- Oberegayuschiy (Which Protects)

Notes:
Main advance for the Udaloi class is better sonar and better radar for general air-sentry duties.

Compared to previous ships, the secondary gun battery is strengthened to include two twin 75mm anti-aircraft guns in two closed turrets.

6

Wednesday, August 9th 2017, 3:19pm

The Fidonisi design looks not unlike the Kriegsmarine’s Westfalen-class of escort aircraft carriers, and your comments suggest that you are leaning towards the same roles - protect the fleet train, collaborate with amphibious forces, train new aviators – and keep the air groups of the strike carriers up to strength. Of course, the details of the two designs differ, but their general dimensions are not dissimilar. I think it is a good choice to replace the older collier-conversions.

7

Wednesday, August 9th 2017, 3:47pm

The Fidonisi design looks not unlike the Kriegsmarine’s Westfalen-class of escort aircraft carriers, and your comments suggest that you are leaning towards the same roles - protect the fleet train, collaborate with amphibious forces, train new aviators – and keep the air groups of the strike carriers up to strength. Of course, the details of the two designs differ, but their general dimensions are not dissimilar. I think it is a good choice to replace the older collier-conversions.

Yup. If memory serves, I sent you one of my French designs that you used as a reference when designing the Westfalen - I just switched that French design over to the Russian weapon calibers, and updated it to a 1948 lay-down date. ;) "Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without!"

8

Wednesday, August 9th 2017, 3:53pm

The Fidonisi design looks not unlike the Kriegsmarine’s Westfalen-class of escort aircraft carriers, and your comments suggest that you are leaning towards the same roles - protect the fleet train, collaborate with amphibious forces, train new aviators – and keep the air groups of the strike carriers up to strength. Of course, the details of the two designs differ, but their general dimensions are not dissimilar. I think it is a good choice to replace the older collier-conversions.

Yup. If memory serves, I sent you one of my French designs that you used as a reference when designing the Westfalen - I just switched that French design over to the Russian weapon calibers, and updated it to a 1948 lay-down date. ;) "Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without!"


I don't quite remember those details, but I'll not quibble. Convergent evolution I say! :D

9

Wednesday, August 9th 2017, 4:39pm

Sixty aircraft on 12,500 tons feels ambitious to me.
For example, my new Project 721 Argentine carrier is roughly the same dimensions but 16,000 tons light for 48 aircraft.
My RN Ocean class was a Colossus clone, slightly smaller than your design, 13,200 tons light for 48 aircraft. The historical Colossus also had room for 48 aircraft. The newer Albion is roughly the same size but 15,900 tons light for 48 aircraft.
As an escort I feel that around 40-50 aircraft is more than ample, and perhaps even then too much for the ASW role. Patrol types are the key asset but even then you won't need more than 8-10 in the air at once unless your really intensively patrolling around a fleet. I like a little growth space though, I suspect twin-engined patrol types are just around the corner like the Grumman Tracker and other space-intensive types like helicopters. I feel deck length and hangar space to be important in those aspects. Of course that does raise the price. Colossus was ideal in late WW2 but even by the 50s was too cramped and unable to carry the latest bigger aircraft without some serious refit work.

10

Wednesday, August 9th 2017, 5:00pm

I will say this regarding the Westfalens - they're eggshells. Unlike the Russian design they have no belt armor or torpedo bulkheads. They are not expected to be in the forefront of battle. Their primary role is to act as floating maintenance ships to keep the fleet carriers up to strength; hence their emphasis on aircraft carrying ability and less on speed or protection.

11

Wednesday, August 9th 2017, 7:27pm

Sixty aircraft on 12,500 tons feels ambitious to me.
For example, my new Project 721 Argentine carrier is roughly the same dimensions but 16,000 tons light for 48 aircraft.
My RN Ocean class was a Colossus clone, slightly smaller than your design, 13,200 tons light for 48 aircraft. The historical Colossus also had room for 48 aircraft. The newer Albion is roughly the same size but 15,900 tons light for 48 aircraft.

I don't have a problem dropping it down to 48x aircraft. 60 planes fits about what Da Rulez say the ship will fit, but if I just drop the airgroup down to 48 planes, then I can use the miscellaneous weight for other important things. Perhaps workshops, spare crated aircraft, etc.

12

Friday, August 11th 2017, 2:38pm

To me 60 aircraft on 12,000 tons doesn't seem off, when you consider U.S.S. Wasp with an additional 2,000 tons displacement carried 20 more aircraft than the Russian design. Full load displacement on the historical Wasp is 1,200 tons more than the Fidonisi which carries a much lighter armament. The more important question is what type of hangar does Findonisi have, open or enclosed. THAT will have more effect on the airgroup size than tonnage. After all, Japan got 48 aircraft on an 8,000 ton Ryujo historically.