WesWorld

Playing around with a new submarine for the 1948 Programme. I expect to build at least 15 of this class to replace the last of the P Class.
I no longer see any point in coastal/oceanic mix submarines and this sub is designed for range and quiet and good speed.

1948 Class
Date: 1948
Ocean
Armament:
- Guns: none
- Torpedoes: 6 21in torpedo tubes
- Mines: 12 (also simming reload torpedoes)
Electric HP: 6,000hp
Diesel HP: 3,000hp
Crew: 69
Weight fuel & batts: 400 tons
Light Displacement: 1,533 tons
Loaded Displacement/Kerb Weight: 1,815 tons
Full Displacement: 2,155 tons
Reserve buoyancy: 16%
Max Surf Speed: 14.8 knots
Max Sub Speed: 17.1 knots

Length: 95.0 m
Beam: 8.1 m
Draft: 5.6 m
Crush depth: 317.5 m
Tons Oil: 270 tons
Tons Battery: 130 tons
Cruise speed: 12 knots
Submerged speed: 4 knots
Surface Range: 2,540 nm@14 knots; 10,127 nm@12 knots; 14,583 nm@10 knots
Submerged Range: 2 nm @17 knots; 38 nm@8 knots; 217 nm@4 knots

Notes: 100 tons miscellaneous weight for radar and ASDIC and hydrophones and some extra gear
Type 952 search RDF (submarine version of Type 970)
Type 186 flank passive ASDIC with two arrays (60-80 mile range)
Type 187 directional passive ASDIC trainable array with active ranging array
Type 719 fin-mounted aft-looking hydrophone

If you want quiet, you should add some silent running engines like I did on my last few designs.

I feel that your submarine lacks battery output for a submarine that focuses more on its electric engines than its diesel engines. It is not really proper to compare it to the I-310 (considering that it is something like twice as large), but that one can last almost 50 minutes at 17 knots (and 21 minutes at its top speed of 20 knots).

It is also kinda flat like most of our other incorrectly simmed Wesworld submarines. These days, for a normal submarine I prefer a d:b > 0.80 to resemble the OTL subs more (and no, I-402 is not a normal submarine).

Another design for 1948 is an export version of the new Bay Class sloop.
Think of this as the historical HMS Mermaid as built for Ghana but a double-ended with a 4.5in mount at each end.
Almost identical to the Bay she loses some advanced sonars, keeps Squid and gains six fixed TT tubes. The 4.5in mounts are old shielded mounts in plentiful supply. She still has a powerful fire-control system too.

I can see Iraq and Egypt getting some of these to replace their older 1922 Class torpedo gunboats.


Commonwealth Export Class, Great Britain Sloop laid down 1947

Displacement:
1,198 t light; 1,272 t standard; 1,435 t normal; 1,564 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
340.55 ft / 330.00 ft x 40.00 ft x 9.10 ft (normal load)
103.80 m / 100.58 m x 12.19 m x 2.77 m

Armament:
4 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (2x2 guns), 45.00lbs / 20.41kg shells, 1936 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1941 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 196 lbs / 89 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 400
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.50" / 38 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 15,000 shp / 11,190 Kw = 27.71 kts
Range 5,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 292 tons

Complement:
116 - 151

Cost:
£0.833 million / $3.333 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 25 tons, 1.7 %
Armour: 18 tons, 1.3 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 18 tons, 1.3 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 371 tons, 25.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 555 tons, 38.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 237 tons, 16.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 230 tons, 16.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,412 lbs / 640 Kg = 31.0 x 4.5 " / 114 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 12.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.51

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, low quarterdeck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.418
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.31 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 33
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.50 ft / 7.16 m
- Forecastle (22 %): 23.50 ft / 7.16 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m before break)
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 17.73 ft / 5.40 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 116.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 163.6 %
Waterplane Area: 8,531 Square feet or 793 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 121 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 36 lbs/sq ft or 175 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.52
- Longitudinal: 3.03
- Overall: 0.61
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Class Names: HMS Bigbury Bay, Cardigan Bay, Carnarvon Bay, Cawsand Bay, Enard Bay, Herne Bay, Hollesley Bay, Largo Bay, Luce Bay, Morecambe Bay, Mounts Bay, Pegwell Bay.

Misc Weight includes:
ASDIC Type 148
Depth-Finding ASDIC Type 145
Surface Search Type 970
Target Indication Type 287P
Gunnery Director Mk VI with Type 288
Close Range Blind Fire Director (CRBF) with Type 289
HF/DF Type 292
Passive Radio Intercept Type 293 Series
2x (or 1x) Squid A/S Mortar with 30x projectiles per mortar

Quoted

If you want quiet, you should add some silent running engines like I did on my last few designs. :)

How do you make an engine run silently?

Quieter I can envisage, but silently?

Quoted from "BruceDuncan"

How do you make an engine run silently?

By using a hamster wheel!
Jonesy "..and for a minute Sir, I thought I heard... munching of straw!"

Britain will be going the way of rafting and using resilient mountings.

Quoted from "Hood"

Quoted from "BruceDuncan"

How do you make an engine run silently?

By using a hamster wheel! :D
Jonesy "..and for a minute Sir, I thought I heard... munching of straw!"

Britain will be going the way of rafting and using resilient mountings.

Which is reasonable, they will make the boat quieter. But silent? I'd like to see more details for that.

Quoted

How do you make an engine run silently?

Quieter I can envisage, but silently?

I did not mean that the engines run silently, but they are for silent running (two different things). To me, silent running electric motors =/= silent, but these small engines will be more quiet than your big normal electric engines (especially when you go for high underwater speeds) which is what you want when you have a bunch of angry ASW ships racing around above your head somewhere trying to avenge the lighthouse you just torpedoed.

Wiki lists the Type XXI as having two 223shp SSW GV232/28 silent running electric motors besides the two 4900shp SSW GU365/30 double-acting electric motors and that gave me the idea to apply the silent running engines to my most recent subs. Considering that they are two completely different engines, they should both be simmed separately and added up for your ElecHP in Subsim.

Thank you for clarifying your meaning.

Thoughts about these ships have been buzzing around my head for the last sim year. Pretty much these are a beefed up Leviathan Class with newer kit, a deck-edge lift added and steam catapults.
No angled decks, perhaps by the time these complete in 1952-54 such things might be in the pipeline and the last two may receive alterations on the stocks. Since cruiser construction is slowing down and no more capital ships are ever likely, its been decided to build 4 rather than 2 of these ships. The rest of the Majestics will probably be retired as these complete.

HMS Colossus, Majestic, Powerful, Terrible, Great Britain Aircraft Carrier laid down 1948

Displacement:
37,355 t light; 38,467 t standard; 43,072 t normal; 46,755 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
903.65 ft / 850.00 ft x 120.00 ft x 29.50 ft (normal load)
275.43 m / 259.08 m x 36.58 m x 8.99 m

Armament:
16 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (8x2 guns), 45.00lbs / 20.41kg shells, 1945 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
48 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x6 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1947 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1948 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 832 lbs / 377 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 500

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.50" / 114 mm 630.00 ft / 192.02 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 114 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 800.00 ft / 243.84 m 26.00 ft / 7.92 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -

- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 180,000 shp / 134,280 Kw = 32.83 kts
Range 16,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 8,288 tons

Complement:
1,494 - 1,943

Cost:
£15.107 million / $60.429 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 123 tons, 0.3 %
Armour: 9,225 tons, 21.4 %
- Belts: 1,897 tons, 4.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,924 tons, 4.5 %
- Armament: 90 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 5,235 tons, 12.2 %
- Conning Tower: 79 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,399 tons, 10.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,608 tons, 33.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,717 tons, 13.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 9,000 tons, 20.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
101,242 lbs / 45,923 Kg = 2,222.1 x 4.5 " / 114 mm shells or 18.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
Metacentric height 9.9 ft / 3.0 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.74

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.501
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.08 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 34.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 55.00 ft / 16.76 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 55.00 ft / 16.76 m (32.00 ft / 9.75 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Quarterdeck (22 %): 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Stern: 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Average freeboard: 36.60 ft / 11.16 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 288.6 %
Waterplane Area: 70,739 Square feet or 6,572 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 154 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 144 lbs/sq ft or 705 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.73
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather


Hangar deck: 625 x 90 x 18ft
Served by one deck-edge 56 x 35ft lift with a capacity for 40,000lbs and two centreline 54 x 46ft lifts with a capacity for 40,000lbs
Two BAH.II steam catapults with capacity for 40,000lbs aircraft
Arrestor gear of 8 wires, 1 trickle wire, 3 forward wires and two safety barriers
Air Group: 80-120 plus 16 spare aircraft carried disassembled for attrition replacement

Deck Armour: 1in flight deck, 3in main deck, 1in lower deck (1,282 tons misc weight to sim flight deck armour)
Torpedo Bulkhead: One 1.5in and two 0.5in thick bulkheads

Radar Equipment:
One Type 971 aerial search set
Two Type 976 height-finding sets
One Type 975 Target Indication set
One Type 276 high-definition surface search set
Two Mk. VI directors with Type 288 with 'Tallboy' barrage unit and Flypane table
Twelve CRBF with Type 289
Asdic Type 146
Passive Intercept Type UA1
Radio-Location Jammer RU series (4 aerials)
Radio-Location Jammer Type 298 'Spooky'
VHF Direction Finder Type 295Q

Interesting as I have been looking at a new design carrier class of four vessels for 1948 as well (though they are a bit more along the lines of the OTL Shinano).

I am not sure how you simmed it, but 16 spare planes require 400 tons, 1282 tons is used to sim the flight deck armor so there is at this point already less than 8500 tons of miscellaneous weights left. Then there are the heavy duty elevators, the steam catapults and all the electronic stuff and perhaps some more miscellaneous stuff which I will set at a modest total of 500 tons. This would leave you with ~6800 tons which is good for about 82 planes max, not 80-120. I would actually set it to 54-82 instead.

Actually looking at the previous big UK carrier (Audacious), it has a similar issue and it has even less miscellaneous weight making it doubtful that it can even reach the 80 planes with the remaining miscellaneous weight.

... and that is ignoring the "armored flight deck" bit in the springstyle notes...

Walter, try as I might I can't get my loadings to exceed 9,000 tons, although I've dropped back to 96 aircraft now as 120 would be for smaller piston types and would need a deck park. With current sizes and bigger jets 96 seems optimum.

HMS Colossus, Majestic, Powerful, Terrible, Great Britain Aircraft Carrier laid down 1948

Displacement:
37,637 t light; 38,780 t standard; 44,619 t normal; 49,290 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
903.65 ft / 850.00 ft x 120.00 ft x 29.50 ft (normal load)
275.43 m / 259.08 m x 36.58 m x 8.99 m

Armament:
16 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (8x2 guns), 45.00lbs / 20.41kg shells, 1945 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
48 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x6 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1947 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1948 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 832 lbs / 377 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 500

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.50" / 114 mm 630.00 ft / 192.02 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 114 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 800.00 ft / 243.84 m 26.00 ft / 7.92 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -

- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 180,000 shp / 134,280 Kw = 32.56 kts
Range 20,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 10,510 tons

Complement:
1,534 - 1,995

Cost:
£15.181 million / $60.724 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 123 tons, 0.3 %
Armour: 9,319 tons, 20.9 %
- Belts: 1,900 tons, 4.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,924 tons, 4.3 %
- Armament: 90 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 5,324 tons, 11.9 %
- Conning Tower: 81 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,399 tons, 9.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,796 tons, 33.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,982 tons, 15.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 9,000 tons, 20.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
108,082 lbs / 49,025 Kg = 2,372.2 x 4.5 " / 114 mm shells or 20.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
Metacentric height 10.1 ft / 3.1 m
Roll period: 15.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.73

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.519
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.08 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 34.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 55.00 ft / 16.76 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 55.00 ft / 16.76 m (32.00 ft / 9.75 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Quarterdeck (22 %): 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Stern: 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Average freeboard: 36.60 ft / 11.16 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 69.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 285.9 %
Waterplane Area: 71,948 Square feet or 6,684 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 159 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 144 lbs/sq ft or 704 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.69
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather


Hangar deck: 625 x 90 x 18ft
Served by one deck-edge 56 x 35ft lift with a capacity for 40,000lbs and two centreline 54 x 46ft lifts with a capacity for 40,000lbs
Two BAH.II steam catapults with capacity for 40,000lbs aircraft
Arrestor gear of 8 wires, 1 trickle wire, 3 forward wires and two safety barriers
Air Group: 80-96 plus 16 spare aircraft carried disassembled for attrition replacement

Deck Armour: 1in flight deck, 3in main deck, 1in lower deck (1,309 tons misc weight to sim flight deck armour)
Torpedo Bulkhead: One 1.5in and two 0.5in thick bulkheads

Endurance is 17,000nm at 16kts (8,994 tons), remaining 1,516 tons bunkerage for aviation fuel

Electronic Equipment:
One Type 971 aerial search set
Two Type 976 height-finding sets
One Type 975 Target Indication set
One Type 276 high-definition surface search set
Two Mk. VI directors with Type 288 with 'Tallboy' barrage unit and Flypane table
Twelve CRBF with Type 289
Asdic Type 146
Passive Intercept Type UA1
Radio-Location Jammer RU series (4 aerials)
Radio-Location Jammer Type 298 'Spooky'
VHF Direction Finder Type 295Q

Misc Weight
2800 tons for 96 aircraft + 16 crated aircraft
2500 tons for aircraft ammunition and spares
1309 tons for flightdeck armour
500 tons for steam catapults
300 tons for lifts
500 tons for hangar equipment
200 tons for fireproof partitions and fire-fighting gear in hangar
100 tons for electronic equipment
200 tons for CIC spaces
200 tons air conditioning and habitability
390 tons for growth

In calculating aircraft capacity under our guidelines, 96 aircraft would require a miscellaneous weight of more than 9,000 tons - representing space needed to maintain them. While the size of the ship might allow for more aircraft, the guidance specifies the lower of the two numbers.

Yeah, I can see where I went wrong now, totally forgot about the whole square root thingy and had just done the 96x25 calculation.
I don't think its going to be a big problem to add a little more margin in the final report.

Quoted

In calculating aircraft capacity under our guidelines, 96 aircraft would require a miscellaneous weight of more than 9,000 tons

Well, as I indicated after subtracting all the other requirements of miscellaneous weights, you might end up with slightly more than 2/3 of that number.

When you look at Japan's Shokaku class, it has 10,000 tons of miscellaneous weights, 8,100 of them being for 90 planes. The Hiyo is about 35% larger than the Shokaku and it carries twice the amount of miscellaneous weights (20,000 tons with 14400 tons for 120 planes). Lots of planes require lots of miscellaneous weights. I had even more planes planned for the 1948 Ishinagenjo class, but in the end decided it was too expensive and saved almost 4,000 tons by going for the same number of planes as the Shokaku and use the gained hull strength for lots of other things (though for some strange reason I ended up with almost the same amount of miscellaneous weights as I used when I had much more planes on it).

Quoted

Walter, try as I might I can't get my loadings to exceed 9,000 tons

Of course you can! You control Britain! You can do almost anything! Shokaku comfortably exceeds 9,000 tons, is more than 5,000 tons lighter and is 12 years older! if Rice Paper Boat Builders can do that, then surely Mighty Britain can do that as well!

Actually when you look at the details, you can see why...

HIJMS Shokaku vs HMS Colossus

Year: 1936 vs 1948
Dimensions: 810x100x32ft, BC 0.531 vs 850x120x29.5ft, BC 0.519
normal displacement: 39,301 tons vs 44,619 tons
Main battery: 4x2 5" vs 8x2 4.5"
Secondary battery: 8x2 105mm vs none
Heavy AA: 4x8 40mm vs 8x6 + 4x2 40mm
light AA: 17x3 25mm vs none
Main belt: 8" (510x12 ft) vs 4.5" (630x16 ft)
Torpedo BH: 3" (510x32 ft) vs 2.5" (800x26 ft)
Deck: 4" vs 4"
Power: 176,635 shp vs 180,000 shp
Speed: 33 kts vs 32.56 kts
Bunker (max): 5,749 tons vs 10,510 tons
Range: 12,000 nm @ 15 kts vs 20,000 nm @ 16 kts
Miscellaneous weights: 10,000 vs 9,000 tons
Planes: 90 (8100 tons) vs ~82 (~6800 tons left)
Stability: 1.11 vs 1.27
Steadiness: 60% vs 71%
Seaboat: 1.28 vs 1.73

The colossus uses a shallower and finer hull than the Shokaku. The Colossus gains less hull strength with its length and width than Shokaku does with its depth and BC.

If I keep the 850 feet length, use a 32 ft draught and a BC of 0.531 and drop the beam to 108 feet, I will have a 44,568 ton (normal) vessel and have gained 0.10 hull strength.
If I keep the 120 feet beam, use a 32 ft draught and a BC of 0.531 and drop the length to 765 feet, I will have a 44,568 ton (normal) vessel and have gained 0.12 hull strength.

As you can see, in both cases, the ships is slightly lighter than you 44,619 tons, but gained a significant amount of hull strength. Based on that and a few more tests, hull strength gains from best to worst are: draught, BC, beam, length. Conclusion: When it comes to Spring Sharp, Draught rocks and Length sucks.

There are a few other aspects as well. Shokaku's main belt is 120 ft shorter and 4ft less tall and even though it has a TBH coverage from the bottom all the way up to the waterline, it is 290 ft shorter. Fuel also eats up a lot of hull strength. The 20,000 nm @ 16 kts range eats up 0.19 hull strength compared to a 12,000 nm @ 15 kts range. Shokaku's slightly higher l:b ratio probably helps as well when it comes to the power needed for 33 kts.


So you can definitely get more out of it, but it all depends on whether you are willing to sacrifice some other aspects of the carrier to get the additional miscellaneous weights tonnage or not.

Quoted

With current sizes and bigger jets 96 seems optimum.

Actually, jets are 2/3 the number of WW2 and pre WW2 planes so with the 82 planes I calculated in the previous post, this ship can only carry 54 jets which is why I set the estimate at 54-82 instead of your 80-120. 54 is the maximum for all jets and 82 for all WW2 and older planes and any mix of them is somewhere in between.

Edit: actually with that small amount of miscellaneous weights, it is only enough for 32-48 planes...
Edit 2: does give me some ideas for my Wesworld Super Carrier (tm)

Thanks Walter, handy analysis. I think I'll increase the draught a little (2ft maybe).
The size is historically, and probably still true today, the biggest that could be docked in Britain given the real world dimensions of dry docks and access routes to them. In WW things are easier as all docks are identical sizes but for reality I can't make many changes to length and beam any further.

I don't tend to waste misc weight, I put enough in for the job and some margin but I'm not extravagant in my misc weight needs. The airgroup calcs were messed up and were so with the Leviathan class too.
Is there a gentlemen's rule regarding ratios of pistons to jets? Where to turboprops fit into that?

Quoted

The size is historically, and probably still true today, the biggest that could be docked in Britain given the real world dimensions of dry docks and access routes to them. In WW things are easier as all docks are identical sizes but for reality I can't make many changes to length and beam any further.

Length and beam are the main aspects that prevent you from adding more miscellaneous weights if you do not want to alter any of the other stuff like armament, armor, fuel and speed. If you think that a dock/slip can just handle your design as you have simmed it now, then surely it can hold a design that is shorter and less wide.

Quoted

I don't tend to waste misc weight, I put enough in for the job and some margin but I'm not extravagant in my misc weight needs.

Well, when it comes to planes and miscellaneous weight, you are forced to be extravagant. Compared to 30 planes @ 900 tons, 60 planes is 3600 tons (twice the planes, 4 times the miscellaneous weight), 90 planes is 8100 tons (3 times the planes, 9 times the miscellaneous weight) and 120 planes is 14400 tons (4 times the planes, 16 times the miscellaneous weight).

BTW, I have been looking around a bit with search but how is the flightdeck armor calculated? I have looked around with search but could only find the reason as to why miscellaneous weights is used for that.

Another thing I would do: kick off the absolutely ridiculous "growth" bit. You are wasting precious miscellaneous weight there. To me it should be considered to be a load of crap anyway (which the crew of the vessel will no doubt complain about the stinky matter) as it comes over as a "Oh! Let's throw some crap in there as ballast and keep this space open on the ship for that super secret electronics device that has not been designed yet and, better yet, no one anywhere in the world has even thought of to design but will do so 10 years from now so 15 years from now we can remove the crap and put that device (which we have absolutely no idea about what it will do, how heavy it will be and how much space it needs) into our ship." In reality, if you add something to a ship with a refit that is 200 tons, then the ship's displacement will increase by 200 tons and will sit a little bit lower in the water (maybe only a few millimeters).

Looking at what you want on your carrier and the miscellaneous weights needed for the stuff you can't enter on any of the tabs, I think you probably need a vessel that is at least 52,000 tons normal and, considering the amount of miscellaneous weights needed for 96 planes + 16 spares, an additional ~7000 tons miscellaneous weight for the planes (so you have a total of 9616 tons for the 96 planes + 16 spares). Looking at your miscellaneous weights breakdown, I got a few ideas to add to my design but the additional required miscellaneous weights made the carrier another 1,000 tons heavier but that is just something I accepted. My planned design is 76% heavier than your Colossus (that I wanted to base it on the Wesworld Yamato hull is partly to blame for that). On the other hand it carries 228% more miscellaneous weight than Colossus because of all the extra stuff on it as well as the number of planes it needs to carry.

Quoted

Is there a gentlemen's rule regarding ratios of pistons to jets? Where to turboprops fit into that?

Don't think there are. I think I will just assume that all post WW2 planes will require 50% more weight than the WW2 and pre WW2 planes.

I've started scaling down my own airgroups, though I haven't gone straight to the 2/3 ratio.

Made some changes now; more draught, revised air group tailored to what can fit the hangar (80 max) and removal of all but a couple of crated aircraft and these being spare parts rather than meant as whole aircraft to be knocked up.

HMS Colossus, Majestic, Powerful, Terrible, Great Britain Aircraft Carrier laid down 1948

Displacement:
41,343 t light; 42,555 t standard; 48,027 t normal; 52,406 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
887.65 ft / 850.00 ft x 120.00 ft x 32.00 ft (normal load)
270.55 m / 259.08 m x 36.58 m x 9.75 m

Armament:
16 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (8x2 guns), 45.00lbs / 20.41kg shells, 1945 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
48 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x6 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1947 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1948 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 832 lbs / 377 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 500

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.50" / 114 mm 625.00 ft / 190.50 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 113 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.50" / 64 mm 800.00 ft / 243.84 m 26.00 ft / 7.92 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -

- Armour deck: 5.00" / 127 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 180,000 shp / 134,280 Kw = 32.23 kts
Range 18,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 9,851 tons

Complement:
1,621 - 2,108

Cost:
£16.148 million / $64.592 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 123 tons, 0.3 %
Armour: 10,617 tons, 22.1 %
- Belts: 1,887 tons, 3.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,924 tons, 4.0 %
- Armament: 90 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 6,630 tons, 13.8 %
- Conning Tower: 85 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,399 tons, 9.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,105 tons, 31.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,684 tons, 13.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 11,100 tons, 23.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
107,490 lbs / 48,756 Kg = 2,359.2 x 4.5 " / 114 mm shells or 19.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
Metacentric height 9.5 ft / 2.9 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.80

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.515
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.08 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 34.18 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 39
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 55.00 ft / 16.76 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 55.00 ft / 16.76 m (32.00 ft / 9.75 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Quarterdeck (22 %): 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Stern: 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Average freeboard: 36.60 ft / 11.16 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 69.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 269.5 %
Waterplane Area: 71,676 Square feet or 6,659 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 152 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 145 lbs/sq ft or 710 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.73
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather


Hangar deck: 625 x 96 x 18ft
Served by one deck-edge 56 x 35ft lift with a capacity for 40,000lbs and two centreline 54 x 46ft lifts with a capacity for 40,000lbs
Two BAH.II steam catapults with capacity for 40,000lbs aircraft
Arrestor gear of 8 wires, 1 trickle wire, 3 forward wires and two safety barriers
Air Group: 80

Deck Armour: 1in flight deck, 3in main deck, 1in lower deck
Torpedo Bulkhead: One 1.5in and two 0.5in thick bulkheads

Endurance is 16,000nm at 16kts (8,804 tons), remaining 1,047 tons bunkerage for aviation fuel (321,710 imp gals)

Electronic Equipment:
One Type 971 aerial search set
Two Type 976 height-finding sets
One Type 975 Target Indication set
One Type 276 high-definition surface search set
Two Mk. VI directors with Type 288 with 'Tallboy' barrage unit and Flypane table
Twelve CRBF with Type 289
Asdic Type 146
Passive Intercept Type UA1
Radio-Location Jammer RU series (4 aerials)
Radio-Location Jammer Type 298 'Spooky'
VHF Direction Finder Type 295Q

Misc Weight
6400 tons for 80 aircraft
100 tons for spare airframe parts (= to 4 disassembled aircraft)
2400 tons for aircraft ammunition and spares
500 tons for steam catapults
300 tons for lifts
500 tons for hangar equipment
200 tons for fireproof partitions and fire-fighting gear in hangar
100 tons for electronic equipment
200 tons for CIC spaces
200 tons air conditioning and habitability
201 tons for board margin

In 1948 I'm thinking of scrapping the freakish General Class 9.2in armed gunboats and re-using the turrets in two new heavy cruisers based on the Northumberland Class hull.

The result is not cheap, but cheaper than the Princess Royals and Iron Dukes and although they share the same gun, the older ships have triple mounts. These cruisers would be primarily used as Station Flagships overseas.


CA4 Class, Great Britain Heavy Cruiser laid down 1948

Displacement:
14,297 t light; 15,292 t standard; 17,536 t normal; 19,332 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
661.91 ft / 655.00 ft x 76.00 ft x 21.90 ft (normal load)
201.75 m / 199.64 m x 23.16 m x 6.68 m

Armament:
8 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (4x2 guns), 510.00lbs / 231.33kg shells, 1936 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (4x2 guns), 45.00lbs / 20.41kg shells, 1945 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
24 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x6 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1945 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1941 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 4,512 lbs / 2,047 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
6 - 24.5" / 622.3 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 320.00 ft / 97.54 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 230.00 ft / 70.10 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 75 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
2nd: 1.50" / 38 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm -

- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 100,000 shp / 74,600 Kw = 31.65 kts
Range 8,000nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,040 tons

Complement:
761 - 990

Cost:
£9.116 million / $36.464 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 453 tons, 2.6 %
Armour: 4,071 tons, 23.2 %
- Belts: 1,475 tons, 8.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 549 tons, 3.1 %
- Armour Deck: 2,033 tons, 11.6 %
- Conning Tower: 15 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 2,444 tons, 13.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,929 tons, 39.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,239 tons, 18.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
30,325 lbs / 13,755 Kg = 77.9 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 3.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.11

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.563
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.62 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.34 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.50 ft / 9.91 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Mid (65 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 17.90 ft / 5.46 m
- Average freeboard: 22.54 ft / 6.87 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 181.9 %
Waterplane Area: 36,623 Square feet or 3,402 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 135 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 131 lbs/sq ft or 639 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.40
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Class Names: HMS ? & ?

RDF Sets
One Aerial Search Type 971 set
One Surface Search Type 970 set
One Height-Finder and Surface Search Type 277 set
Five Gunnery Director Type 988 fitted directors with Tallboy consoles and Flyplane (two primary and three secondary directors)
Four Close-Range Blind Fire (CRBF) directors with Type 289 fitted
HF/DF Type 292
Passive Radio Intercept Type 293 series
Passive RDF Intercept Type 297
Two RU-series jammers
ASDIC Type 146

Any reason why you suddenly change the way that flightdeck armor is being simmed? Sure it is not a rule but the reason why miscellaneous weights is being used for that made sense to me and you did it on the previous version of the design as well as the previous big RN carrier design.

Also looking at it now, just 100 tons for electronic equipment seems rather low to me considering the huge amount of stuff you put on it.