WesWorld

So, between failures of memory, failures of reading comprehension, and a damnable incessant case of social tone-deafness - all of them on my part - I seem to have put myself and Nordmark in the last place I wanted them to be. Smack bang in the center of conflict and confrontation, both in-setting, and out.

Having talked myself out of quitting on the spot to put myself out of everyone else's misery, I'm still left with a quandry - as this thread's title says. Where do we go from here?

Where's my option? Help Nordmark finance their project?

Quoted from "Rooijen10"

Where's my option? Help Nordmark finance their project?

That'd probably fall as a subclass of 'it's fine'.

Speaking for myself, I could vote for any of the first three; it really doesn't matter to me.

As I have indicated elsewhere, I didn't feel the Nordish decision to pursue a nuclear deterrent could be easily justified based on my understanding of the political situation in Europe; hence why I made an effort to address it. In-character, I've only made the one post so far, and I had intended to respond with multiple posts over a year or so of in-game-time, laying out in greater detail what concerns Russia has and what they reasonably feel they can do about it. As I had intended to respond IC, those responses may run a gamut anywhere between "buy them off" and "knock them off".

I don't actually have a problem per se with Nordmark pursuing nuclear weapons, provided that the gentleman's agreement of "no nukes within the game-time period" is respected. It's your prerogative to play your country in the way you want, and not the way I want. I just intend to fully role-play my nations' most likely responses to that development. That will result in IC conflict of some form or another as Russia says "WTF!!??!!" I don't actually object to a bit of conflict to RP out: after all, if our countries were all nicey-nice to each other, why should we not turn our swords to ploughshares? But from your comment, it sounds like you don't want that sort of conflict. And I can respect that as well. I don't really think you should retcon it, but if you feel that is best, then I will accept it.

If I might offer a bit of a suggestion. Let's say the Nordish actually started a bomb program, put in money, and then discovered it's harder and more expensive than they expected and is seriously degrading relations with the neighbors. So maybe after two years of development, the project leaders and the politicos step back and say "Okay, this isn't going to work as well as we thought, maybe we ought to change the focus." Perhaps, as the project advances, it becomes more clear about what sort of results a weapon actually delivers, and the new information starts to morally challenge Nordish decision-makers. I feel it could be entirely reasonable at this point for Stockholm to say "this isn't what I wanted to get into - is there a safe way to back away slowly?" In response, I'll play along and craft my own responses so that nothing flies out of control. Instead of a matter of conflict between us, we can make it more of a collaborative semi-scripted storyline.

Personally I don't think its should be scrapped per say, just change the method of payment to non naval IP, essentially turning it into storyline development only. It can then be scrapped with ease should you choose to do so. Game wise the program will never mature before the sim finishes (the point where SS stops functioning properly to design ships with missiles) so its a waste of resources that could otherwise be used to build ships or naval infrastructure.

I have no further comment, because Brock has already formulated so aptly.

Quoted

That'd probably fall as a subclass of 'it's fine'.

'It's fine' just does not sound right compared to 'Help Nordmark finance their project'.

Quoted

Personally I don't think its should be scrapped per say, just change the method of payment to non naval IP, essentially turning it into storyline development only.

I would agree with that. We don't pay for other stuff like tanks, planes, civilian ships, radars, sonars, rockets, bombs, etc. but that does not mean that (from a world POV) those nations build all that stuff for free. You have to consider that there is an 'invisible' budget for each nation as well as materials for non naval stuff that are being used to build all the non-naval stuff so I would think that any nuclear program would get its funding from that 'invisible' budget and you mention stuff about it in the news.

Having paid essentially no attention to the site for a few months, I can only say that exciting and dramatic programs can run into extensive teething troubles if it is convenient for the player to impose such.

So, back again to talking about this rather than just musing.

I have an... aesthetic distaste for 'This turned out to be too hard so I'll stop'. I do it in real life only with fits of great self-loathing, and I'm not willing to commit the same sin - and I use that particular word deliberately - in-character. Whatever Nordmark is up to, they're going to finish what they've started. I'm less OCD, though, about the idea that they're up to what I'd originally thought they were doing - IE, retconning the nature of the project doesn't offend me the same way.

This is fortunate, since I'm seriously not willing to go into an outright confrontation on the subject, either in-character or out-of-character.

So, retcons - at least of previous OOC discussions - it is.

What do we know about what Nordmark is doing?

1. It's very secret.
2. It's atomic somehow.
3. I've used it as an excuse to soak up IP that I can't justify the manpower to use on naval hardware.

To this, then, we add the decision that they're not looking to develop the Bomb - or rather, that any investigations of that subject are only incidental to the main focus of the project, taking place because you couldn't stop a national security type from doing that.

The final detail in what I'm thinking is that Nordmark must, at this stage of its history, be an importer of oil and other fossil fuels - the offshore oil reserves won't be known for many decades, and as far as I can tell, the only place in the entire country that's ever had significant coal mining is Svalbard.

But the Swedish uranium reserves were known - the US tried to get rights to them right after WW2, and was turned down.

Therefore, I'm thinking that Nordmark is putting together the wherewithal to build a series of test reactors, aimed, eventually, at producing a design that can take over as primary electrical production.

What do y'all think?

I think its plausible....the first (arguably apparently) nuclear power plant, EBR-1 was built in 1951 in Idaho and the first civil power plant, AM-1 in Russia in 1954. IIRC your time table finish date for a Nuclear bomb was 1958? If so its close to these other milestones. That said I still think theres an alternate way to use that IP invested for sim purposes rather than "waste" it in a civil project.

I agree with Wes. Instead of wasting those materials. You should donate the surplus materials to the poor nations like Chosen, Pacifica, Turkey, Yugoslavia, Japan and Canada. Alternatively you could try to haul several boatloads of Chinese over to Nordmark to man your ships.

Quoted from "Rooijen10"

I agree with Wes. Instead of wasting those materials. You should donate the surplus materials to the poor nations like Chosen, Pacifica, Turkey, Yugoslavia, Japan and Canada. Alternatively you could try to haul several boatloads of Chinese over to Nordmark to man your ships. :D

For once I agree with Walter. You *should* donate your surplus tonnage... to Yugoslavia, the Philippines, Turkey, and Ireland.
:D

Dang! When I was thinking of a few nations to list, the Philippines was actually the first one that came to mind, but when I made the post, I completely forgot to add it.

Smartest thing to do is to invest in the East... except for those evil Chinese...

Quoted from "Valles"

Therefore, I'm thinking that Nordmark is putting together the wherewithal to build a series of test reactors, aimed, eventually, at producing a design that can take over as primary electrical production.

What do y'all think?

- The Angel on my Shoulder: "Sounds fair to me."
- That Other Guy: "Aww, you mean I can't mobilize the Russian Army and go all Red Storm on somebody? Bummer..."

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

Quoted from "Valles"

Therefore, I'm thinking that Nordmark is putting together the wherewithal to build a series of test reactors, aimed, eventually, at producing a design that can take over as primary electrical production.

What do y'all think?

- The Angel on my Shoulder: "Sounds fair to me."
- That Other Guy: "Aww, you mean I can't mobilize the Russian Army and go all Red Storm on somebody? Bummer..."

Hey, that Other Guy - there's always China... :D

No, that's Operation Yellow Peril, not Red Storm.

;)

since the topic has come up, anyone who asks about the Dominion of Canada's nuclear program(s) may or may not end up being shunted interdimensionally and glowing in the dark.

What? They are not turned into Grizzly dinner by Canadian Super Science (tm)??

Quoted from "Rooijen10"

I agree with Wes. Instead of wasting those materials. You should donate the surplus materials to the poor nations like Chosen, Pacifica, Turkey, Yugoslavia, Japan and Canada. Alternatively you could try to haul several boatloads of Chinese over to Nordmark to man your ships.

Turkey would be your BFF forever and ever.....Nordmark -----> <-----Turkey

Honestly, because the other reason for using IP is to head off any complaints of my trying to 'cheese' my way into nuclear weapons - if I've paid in full, then it can hardly count as sneakiness.

But if the Mods feel that the program can proceed entirely in the 'untracked budget', or in some intermediate ratio (Is that what I had in mind with the initial 30IP figure? It feels like it might be.), I'd be amenable. No reason not to sell yard space, after all.