WesWorld

1 medal is just BS. Just scrap that result and give it to Atlantis which, in my opinion, is a nation that would get a lot more than 6 medals at the Olympic Games. Britan got way too many medals compared to the historic trend of the period and eventhough the US has always been an Olympic powerhouse, some medals could have been shaved from its total without harming its position at the top of the medal table.

Some of the medal counts do seem surprisingly low. For instance I'd have not been surprised to see France, Germany, and Atlantis with approximately the same medal counts. And I'm frankly shocked at how many medals Nordmark received. But that said, I don't want that to come across as a complaint, but merely as an expression of great surprise.

Thanks for putting this together, Hood.

However surprised you are, I'm certain that you're less so than I am. Because I did not expect to do that well.

Well, I doubt I'd have batted an eye at it for the Winter games, but it surprised me for the summer games.

Taking a quick glance around, I note that many of the rankings in medal count are pulled from the 1948 Olympics, where the US, Sweden, and France placed in the top three for medal counts, followed by Hungary and Italy. It looks a bit like the Finnish (6th place) and Swedish scores were added up, although some were switched. I'd guess that explains why Germany, Japan, and Russia got low medal counts - the first two weren't invited to the 1948 games, and the Soviet Union declined to attend.

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For instance I'd have not been surprised to see France, Germany, and Atlantis with approximately the same medal counts.

I agree. Looking at the 1930-1960 period and ignoring the 1936 results, Germany is definitely a 20+ medal nation. 11 is just wrong.

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And I'm frankly shocked at how many medals Nordmark received.

Well, that's what you get when you put a few nations together. Looking at the stats, Finland and Sweden were pretty good Summer Olympics nations in that period.


Regarding Britain...

1932 - 16
1936 - 14
1948 - 23 (host)
1952 - 11
1956 - 24

So I really don't see why Britain would be winning 27 medals, even as the host nation.

For myself, if the results in each category were worked out randomly by some method (not that I know a particularly good one) and this was the medal count, there would be no cause for discussion. It's not clear that the results were random, but somehow informed by historical results, allowing for the fact that some nations present at these games sent no teams to the Olympics at this period. This where it seems that Walter takes exception. I understand his position; I can't endorse it. All I can do is set back and have the German, Yugoslav and Philippine teams train harder for 1948. It's the sporting thing to do.

The Kingdom of Greece is ashamed of it's performance. As the originator of the Olympiad, we are shocked at the poor performance of our athletes. Discussions will begin immediately to institute a new, better, training program for prospective competitors for future games. We are especially saddened at our performance in the Greco-Roman wrestling.

Quoted from "Sachmle"

The Kingdom of Greece is ashamed of it's performance. As the originator of the Olympiad, we are shocked at the poor performance of our athletes. Discussions will begin immediately to institute a new, better, training program for prospective competitors for future games. We are especially saddened at our performance in the Greco-Roman wrestling.

...henceforth to be known only as "Roman Wrestling"?

Quoted from "The Rock Doctor"

Quoted from "Sachmle"

The Kingdom of Greece is ashamed of it's performance. As the originator of the Olympiad, we are shocked at the poor performance of our athletes. Discussions will begin immediately to institute a new, better, training program for prospective competitors for future games. We are especially saddened at our performance in the Greco-Roman wrestling.

...henceforth to be known only as "Roman Wrestling"?

Apparently. Italy, Turkey, and Hungary all did rather well. Even Egypt got a bronze, IIRC. Meh..such is life.

Drat, Im far to late for the pun express on wrestling.

I did have a lengthy reply typed out but the stupid forum kindly unlogged me and it was lost (not the first time I've had this problem since the upgrade) and I can't be arsed to type it again. Here follows an abbreviated response.

I did make a caveat on the first post. Most data is historical for 1948, adjusted for German/Japanese/Russian entries selected from real people the right age and experience to have been entered in 1944. Many were too young or old. Those that were inserted were done so in the correct medal levels and events.
Nordmark's result is high but was adjusted down, as was the USA score. Nearly all Nordish results are either Swedish or Finnish but not both nations in the same events so that gaps created went to other nations or the tables were adjusted upwards to fill the gap (as were gaps by missing historical countries here), so that is how Britain and several other nations gained extra medals, offset by the insertion of German/Japanese and Russians which meant some medals were lost. On the whole I made sure everyone got something.
Atlantis got a range of US/Nordish and even Egyptian medals slots. Since there is no data this was the only un-substantiated info done arbitrarily. As to Walter's complaints, its worth noting several Japanese winners of 1936 were actually Koreans and therefore with the existence of Chosen in WW those entries would have been Chosenians, as the winners in this event were 1948 Koreans. Iberia here has gained what in 1948 were independent Puerto Rican and Panamanian medals and Germany has gained Austria's 1948 medals. I can't see how anyone can define what Atlantis might have achieved since its all entirely fictional against real-world people and rankings. Without Communist and Nazi sports programmes who can say for sure Germany and Russia would have done so well as historically in 1936 or 1952 in terms of numbers of entrants and medals won and of course military support, including Japan and the Red Army, has to be taken into account. I think determining the results on know factors and adjusting from there is better than simply rolling and dice without any regard for what's feasible or logical.

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its worth noting several Japanese winners of 1936 were actually Koreans and therefore with the existence of Chosen in WW those entries would have been Chosenians

several =/= all

From what I see the vast majority of Japanese medalists were from Japan so a minumum of 9 is still valid in my opinion. Japan got quite a few swimming medals in the 1930-1960 period (and more than half the 1932 and 1936 medals were for swimming) yet Japan got none here.

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On the whole I made sure everyone got something.

... except for China...

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Without Communist and Nazi sports programmes who can say for sure Germany and Russia would have done so well as historically in 1936 or 1952 in terms of numbers of entrants and medals won and of course military support, including Japan and the Red Army, has to be taken into account.

That why I said "ignoring the 1936 results". Without Nazi sports programmes, Germany is still a 20+ medal nation.

Quoted

I think determining the results on know factors and adjusting from there is better than simply rolling and dice without any regard for what's feasible or logical.

"Most data is historical for 1948" but the 1948 people could have performed differently in 1944. Rolling a dice is just random. It would have been better if you looked at a larger period of time and an average of that period and work with that. That's why I look at the 1930-1960 period. 6 olympic games give a better average and better idea how a nation might perform at the non-existing olympic games.

Looking back at the swimming events I think I have been unfair to Japan. Comparing who was at 1936 and their performances against the 1944 results gives the following. I've given the Japanese swimmers the benefit of the doubt and they've posted results equal to 1936 even though they have aged some since then. This has given Japan a new total of 6 medals with a changed long jump medal, the USA and Hungary and Australia losing medals.

Swimming

Men's Events

100 m freestyle
Gold: Wally Ris, United States, 57.3secs (Olympic Record)
Silver: Alan Ford, United States, 57.8secs
Bronze: Shigeo Arai, Japan, 58.1secs

400 m freestyle
Gold: Bill Smith, United States, 4:41.0 (Olympic Record)
Silver: Jimmy McLane, United States, 4:43.4
Bronze: Shunpei Uto, Japan, 4:46.7

1500 m freestyle
Gold: Noboru Terada, Japan, 19:15.3
Silver: Jimmy McLane, United States, 19:18.5
Bronze: John Marshall, Australia, 19:31.3

100 m backstroke
Gold: Allen Stack, United States, 1:06.4
Silver: Bob Cowell, United States, 1:06.5
Bronze: Georges Vallerey, France, 1:07.8

200 m breaststroke
Gold: Joe Verdeur, United States, 2:39.3 (Olympic Record)
Silver: Keith Carter, United States, 2:40.2
Bronze: Tetsuo Hamuro, Japan, 2:43.1

4×200 m freestyle relay
Gold: United States (Wally Ris, Jimmy McLane, Wally Wolf, Bill Smith), 8:46.0 (World Record)
Silver: Hungary (Elemér Szatmári, György Mitró, Imre Nyéki, Géza Kádas), 8:48.4 Bronze: France (Joseph Bernardo, René Cornu, Henri Padou, Alexandre Jany), 9:08.0

Women's Events

100 m freestyle
Gold: Greta Andersen, Denmark, 1:06.3
Silver: Ann Curtis, United States, 1:06.5
Bronze: Marie-Louise Linssen-Vaessen, Netherlands, 1:07.6

400 m freestyle
Gold: Ann Curtis, United States, 5:17.8 (Olympic Record)
Silver: Karen Harup, Denmark, 5:21.2
Bronze: Catherine Gibson, Great Britain, 5:22.5

100 m backstroke
Gold: Karen Harup, Denmark, 1:14.4 (Olympic Record)
Silver: Suzanne Zimmerman, United States, 1:16.0
Bronze: Judy-Joy Davies, Australia, 1:16.7

200 m breaststroke
Gold: Nel van Vliet, Netherlands, 2:57.2
Silver: Nancy Lyons, Australia, 2:57.7
Bronze: Éva Novák, Hungary, 3:00.2

4×100 m freestyle relay
Gold: United States (Marie Corridon, Thelma Kalama, Brenda Helser, Ann Curtis), 4:29.2 (Olympic Record)
Silver: Denmark (Eva Arndt, Karen Harup, Greta Andersen, Fritze Carstensen), 4:29.6 Bronze: Netherlands (Irma Heijting-Schuhmacher, Margot Marsman,Marie-Louise Linssen-Vaessen, Hannie Termeulen), 4:31.6


Olympic Medal Table
USA: 36 gold, 27 silver, 19 bronze = 82 medals
Nordmark: 22 gold, 17 silver, 17 bronze = 56 medals
France: 10 gold, 6 silver, 14 bronze = 30 medals
Italy: 9 gold, 11 silver, 9 bronze = 29 medals
Hungary: 8 gold, 6 silver, 11 bronze = 25 medals
Netherlands: 6 gold, 3 silver, 8 bronze = 17 medals
Turkey: 6 gold, 4 silver, 2 bronze = 12 medals
Czechoslovakia: 6 gold, 2 silver, 3 bronze = 11 medals
Great Britain: 5 gold, 14 silver, 8 bronze = 27 medals
Denmark: 5 gold, 9 silver, 7 bronze = 21 medals
Switzerland: 5 gold, 9 silver, 4 bronze = 18 medals
Argentina: 3 gold, 4 silver, 1 bronze = 8 medals
Germany: 3 gold, 3 silver, 5 bronze = 11 medals
Australia: 2 gold, 5 silver, 6 bronze = 13 medals
Belgium: 2 gold, 2 silver, 4 bronze = 8 medals
South African Empire: 2 gold, 2 silver, 2 bronze = 6 medals
Japan: 2 gold, 1 silver, 3 bronze = 6 medals
Mexico: 2 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze = 4 medals
Atlantis: 1 gold, 3 silver, 2 bronze = 6 medals
Russia: 1 gold, 2 silver, 2 bronze = 5 medals
Jamaica: 1 gold, 2 silver = 3 medals
Egypt: 1 gold, 1 bronze = 2 medals
Peru: 1 gold
Iberia: 3 silver, 4 bronze = 7 medals
Yugoslavia: 1 silver, 2 bronze = 3 medals
Canada: 1 silver, 2 bronze = 3 medals
Brazil: 1 silver
Chosen: 2 bronze
Poland: 1 bronze

Mexico thumbs its nose at those pathetic Iberians...

Just had time to read it and I must admit - this must have been a lot of work you put up there, James. Well done and thanks for sharing.

As for the results: I didn't know what to expect as the SAE is a ahistorical power in WesWorld. Given the capabilities and money available (as a nation in general) I'd expected something "in the middle" and thus am a bit disappointed the SAE managed just 6 medals (2+2+2) - won in boxing in rowing. Sailing might have been a "field of sience" where the SAE could have prevailed given the difficult waters to train in next door. Or 5000/10000m. But you can't have it all and one should probably remember that those early days were pretty much a European thing because the "social/technical environment" allowed for better training there etc.

Say, was there a "system" you used to define results? Like "nation x has a tendency to be good at wrestling, nation y might have an advantage in long runs" etc.?