WesWorld

Q1 1941

In naval news this quarter, the Royal Romanian Navy continues its expansion with one of the armored cruisers, the Dacia beginning a midlife refit. Two destroyers, the Galatz and the Moldova also are refitted this quarter, finally the coastal battleship Regele is completed and begins working up.

In national news, the vote by the Chamber of Deputies on the proposed Autostrada passes. A bill to encourage foreign car companies to invest in production in Romania is also brought forward. Chief among the incentives for foreign investment would be a lower tax rate over a set period, provided the companies meet certain conditions, namely that a clear majority of cars goes towards the Romanian market. The bill is debated but is delayed due to the calling of elections in March.

Q2 1941

In naval news this quarter, the armoured cruiser Dacia is launched, two destroyers the Marasti and the Smeul are both refitted.

In national news, the elections to the Assembly of Deputies are held with the National Liberal Party (PNL) gaining the majority of the seats with 230 seats out of a possible 412. Ion Duca remains President of the Council of Ministers.

The Assembly of Deputies passes the bill on foreign car companies investing in Romania. In addition, the incentives offered to foreign companies will also be given to Automobile Dacia.

The Resita Factory begins large-scale production of the 75mm M40 gun, developed by Yugoslavia. The Ministry of Defence has made an initial order from Resita for 1,000 pieces as well as an undisclosed number from Zastava Ordnance Works. The Maxala factory is investigating the possibility of mounting the weapon on a mobile chassis.

Q3 1941

In naval news this month, the armoured cruiser Constanta begins her mid cycle refit.

In Army news, the Royal Romanian Army begins two reforms this quarter, with the active number of infantry divisions shrinking from 20 to 16, and the 1st Armoured Division reforming along the lines of the Rosiori Division.

Q4/41

The office of the Defence Minister, Marshal Ion Antonescu

"General, I wish you to brief me on the state of our armoured forces. With the Hungarians rearming, it may be a wise idea to begin a review of our own forces," said Marshal Antonescu

"Certainly Marshal. First, our main foe, the Hungarian Army is inferior to ours on paper, and in numbers. They have however been receiving some assistance from other nations, and have produced a number of their own weapons. Chief among these is the Toldi tank, a tank which from our reports from DGIA (1) is equivalent to our own R-7. The Yugoslavs are using the French/Russian/Atlantean AT-36 as their main tank, a design which is superior in every respect to our R-7. The Yugoslavs are in fact using what is our R-7 as a light tank. The Bulgarians and Russians are also using the AT-36 as their main tank, though DGIA reports indicate that the Russians have an improved version entering service," replied Major General Radu Korne.

"A synopsis then would be that our neighbours have equal or better tanks than we do, and that disparity will only get worse." Antonescu commented.

"Yes Marshal, we do have other tanks which are better than the R-7 but not many. and not enough to equip our Rosiori divisions. Our future prospects are grim as well. We need a light tank, medium tank, heavy tank, and tank destroyer, and we only have a design ready for one of those requirements," replied Korne.

"True enough, I suppose you have a solution to this problem? The issue of course is the rapid rate of armoured development, the R-7 should have been good as a front-line tank for Romania until 1943. Now however, it is obsolete and really is only useful as a light reconnaissance tank," declared Antonescu.

"Well, as you mentioned we can relegate the R-7 to a secondary role, something which should get us through to 1944. In the interim, we can either design a new medium tank or purchase from abroad. There are advantages to both. Designing a medium tank is good for national pride, as well as employing people in Romania. However, the time needed to do so would mean by the time we have this tank in operation, it may be obsolete. Or, we purchase from another country. The benefits are that we gain a modern tank immediately. However, due to the rearmament undertaken by all countries, it is unlikely we would be able to acquire modern tanks in numbers before 1944. On heavy tanks, I believe it is unlikely we need to invest heavily in this area at the present time. A small number purchased abroad enough to supply two battalions should suffice. Light tanks, the R-7 will fill this role, and Nicolae Malaxa has indicated he can use the base design and improve it. The one bright spot is the tank destroyer, the Maresal should begin testing shortly, and if successful will begin production late next year," Korne replied.

"What sort of specifications are we looking for in a medium tank?" asked Antonescu.

"Around 30 to 35 tons, armoured against modern tank weapons frontally, armed with the Resita 75mm UT-DDR, with a speed of 45 km/h." replied Korne.

"A powerful vehicle then, and I presume we can design it so it can be improved?" asked Antonescu.

"Yes, that can be done." replied Korne.

"Then let it be so. Inquire around as well as to how quickly the various powers would be able to begin delivery on a number of their modern medium tanks," ordered Antonescu.

In naval news this quarter, the armoured cruiser Constanta completes her mid cycle refit, as well the two former Polish armoured cruisers are transferred to the Royal Romanian Navy.

(1) Direccia General de Informacii a Aprrii is Romania's military intelligence agency.

Understandable issue 1941 is ostensibly when the Dutch prototyped their T-41 as the tank escalation was passing the T-35 series by. Somewhere I have a note about Belgium seeking a new TD for the same reasons, but I think thats 1942.

It should be noted, while Romania isn't anticipating a conflict with either Bulgaria or Yugoslavia soon, they are keeping tabs on what the Jone's are up too. Hungary of course remains the enemy of choice - for a whole host of reasons they would rather not fight the Russians.

OOC, I could buy M4 Shermans from the US and solve the issue, at least until the Polish 32TP is available. I don't really like buying from myself though, so that is the choice of last resort. The usual suppliers of France, Germany, and the UK are all in 1944 so any orders placed wouldn't come in until 1945 at the earliest and if I am waiting until then I might as well build a version of the 32TP in Romania. Buying from Atlantis means buying what the neighbours have, and I don't like doing that either. So it comes down for me to buying M4 Shermans or developing something in Romania.

Actually, presuming that your orders were placed some time before hand, Germany could commence deliveries of vehicles in the latter half of 1944 - surplus Panzer IVs (similar to those supplied to Hungary) could be had in good numbers, but if you wanted Standardpanzer Panthers, they could begin delivery from July 1944. Production is proceeding at a good clip and diverting some to Romania makes business sense.

Brock's update of the Czech forces has the CKD LT vz. 42 Tank in development right now. It may answer the need.

I'll note that the Dutch tanks are just too slow for your specs and limited in production anyhow or I'd offer the T-41A or old T-35Ds, but without the production capacity of a Major Power, I can't afford to

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
Brock's update of the Czech forces has the CKD LT vz. 42 Tank in development right now. It may answer the need.

Yes, indeed. And it'd be a very good option, given that Romania and Czechoslovakia are both pretty mountainous; and that favors lighter and more mobile tanks.

Only question I have is how willing the Czechs might be to license-building: they've already got Irish and then Swiss orders, and by 1944, Yugoslavian orders. They might be able to meet deliveries in between that time, but not sure... might be better to just license it, and the Romanians are probably trustworthy enough in that regard.

On technical merits, I would agree that the CKD LT vz. 42 would be an excellent vehicle for the Romanians, but I suspect that the Romanian authorities are concerned for a perceived lack of industrial facilities to construct license-built vz.42s *and* Maresal tank destroyers at the same time.

Guess the question then would be - If Skoda was faced with excess demand for their products, would they turn down orders, or try to expand production somehow ?

The Romanians at present cannot build the Lt.38, Maresal tank destroyer, and the Lt.42, at least without an expansion of their facilities. The Lt.42 does fit the bill quite nicely I admit.

The Polish 32TP is also a very good tank, and designed by a friendly country. The issue here is similar to that of the Lt.42, that with Polish orders, Bulgarian orders, and potentially other WP orders Poland may not be able to fulfill Romania's needs for some time.

The Panther option is good, likely very expensive, and a bit heavy - the Romanians classify it as a heavy medium or heavy tank, and may be tempted to relegate it to infantry support in independent tank battalions attached to infantry divisions. Germany does however have the production capacity to fill Romanian orders in a reasonable time.

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian
Buying from Atlantis means buying what the neighbours have.....

Not nessesarily, Atlantis is currently begining production of the AT-38 and AT-39 (very similar to historical T-50 light tank and T-34M) of which no foreign orders have been placed as of yet.

Realistically the only likely British tank to fit the bill is the A20 Cruiser Tank Mk VIII Cromwell (ahistorical with sloped glacis and 17pdr 77mm gun). It has been in mass production since 43 so some could be transferred to Romania from British orders (there is a Canadian line too so I could make good from that source).

I went back this morning and reviewed my assumptions for production, and I think both CKD and PZInz could take a hefty order.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think the Panther would be a very good tank for Romania. Given its weight and Romania's geography and level of local infrastructure (roads, bridges, tunnels, etc), I think the RRA would have a lot of difficulties with the type.

Those sorts of things are why the Czechs developed the LT vz.42 as they did. It's weighted more appropriately for infrastructure in poorer countries, its designed to operate in very rugged terrain, and its still potent enough to be a threat to any current medium (or indeed many heavy) tanks. Remember that the Czechs actually have more recent tank combat experience than anyone else in Europe!

The Poles were a bit more liberal with the 32TP design in terms of weight, but they wanted something with a bit more firepower and armour.

I've generally presumed that production numbers at CKD/Skoda and PZInz are approximately on par with the leading tank manufacturers in Europe and Asia, able to build between two to four tanks per working day so long as orders hold out. The LT vz.42 was introduced in 1942, and the majority of orders for the Czech Army were completed by November 1943. The Swiss then ordered two hundred. Presume that CKD is at their minimum workflow of two tanks per day. This means that the Swiss order, which dovetailed into the end of the Czech order, was filled by the end of April 1944. The Yugoslavian order for two hundred thus dovetails nicely with the Swiss order: those deliveries will complete by October 1944. So CKD would still have plenty of margin to increase their production rate and still deliver their existing contracts while accepting more business. In general, presume that CKD can deliver 1.5 to 2 LT vz.42s per workday to Romania for any given month in 1944.

By the same count, PZInz should be capable of producing two to four tanks per working day. Poland has an order for six hundred; Bulgaria currently has just sixty on order. At two per day minimum workflow, PZInz is still delivering an average of 43.5 tanks per month, filling both orders in fifteen months. Boosting to three per day (more economical for the manufacturer), you could have twenty-two 32TPs delivered per month to Romania. In other words, PZInz can still provide enough production to outfit four tank battalions per year.

Since foreign orders contribute to economies of scale, the Poles would really, really love to get an order of another 300+ tanks, since it simultaneously drives down the price of the ones Poland is buying for themselves. Romania should thus consider themselves politely pressured by their friendly Polish salesman to order now in order to benefit mutually. (Also, the Bulgarians have a larger order waiting for the 1945 budget year, and if Romania orders now, they will get production preference...)

Brock has a point with the question of local infrastructure - while the Panther can easily outgun the vz.42 or 32TP in open terrain, it would be at a disadvantage in closed terrain and would be a strain on roads, bridges and railways.

As far as production quantities are concerned, Germany is producing Panthers at a somewhat low per diem rate, but has a number of factories engaged in the program. Ramping up the per diem production rate moderately results in a large aggregate increase. Thus, Germany can afford to meet Romanian orders while fulfilling the Heer's needs at the same time.

The question all comes down to what Romania wants.

Also, need to address a few points:

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian
The Yugoslavs are using the French/Russian/Atlantean AT-36 as their main tank, a design which is superior in every respect to our R-7.

The French never picked up the AT-36.

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian
The Bulgarians and Russians are also using the AT-36 as their main tank, though DGIA reports indicate that the Russians have an improved version entering service," replied Major General Radu Korne.

...sorta. The majority of the Bulgarian AT-36s were actually AT-36/57s, with a 57mm gun instead of the 75mm gun. And the majority of THOSE came secondhand from Chile in 1942.

Quoted

Originally posted by TheCanadian
"Around 30 to 35 tons, armoured against modern tank weapons frontally, armed with the Resita 75mm UT-DDR, with a speed of 45 km/h." replied Korne.

...

"Then let it be so. Inquire around as well as to how quickly the various powers would be able to begin delivery on a number of their modern medium tanks," ordered Antonescu.

At risk of sabotaging the Polish and Czechs, during 1943, the French firms of Somua, FCM, or AMX could have delivered several hundred Char-8A2 Montbrun mediums, which exactly match these requirements except for the gun (which could have been substituted). Because the vast portion of Char-8 orders were completed by the end of 1942, only AMX was still building the type throughout most of 1943.

Quoted

The French never picked up the AT-36.

I realize that, however the French were involved from what I understand in the design process.

Quoted

...sorta. The majority of the Bulgarian AT-36s were actually AT-36/57s, with a 57mm gun instead of the 75mm gun. And the majority of THOSE came secondhand from Chile in 1942.

Which are still better than the Lt vz. 38 that Romania is using as its MBT at the moment.

Quoted

At risk of sabotaging the Polish and Czechs, during 1943, the French firms of Somua, FCM, or AMX could have delivered several hundred Char-8A2 Montbrun mediums, which exactly match these requirements except for the gun (which could have been substituted). Because the vast portion of Char-8 orders were completed by the end of 1942, only AMX was still building the type throughout most of 1943.

And the US can deliver Shermans in 1943 as well. With the plethora of firms interested in selling to Romania, it seems Major-General Korne will have to order a 10 tanks from everyone and do a detailed analysis to see what works best for Romania.

Slightly off topic, but which would one think is more relevant in hilly terrain - power to weight or ground pressure ? Hills are not something the Dutch have had to worry about, how to make a tank for close soft terrain is more their issue - and that's a ground pressure issue. I'd think hill climbing would be as well- more surface area to transfer the power before overcoming the sheer resistance of the surface.

Hmm 1943? .... I was thinking 42 for some reason. The Dutch T-41..Bs would be wrapping up, so tanks would be available but...they like slow tanks...so neither the surplus T-35Cs nor the T-41Bs meet the spec. Oh well, less Gulden for me.

They might be on the light side, but if Romania is interested, the Mexicans would be happy to provide a version of the AT-40 for trials.