WesWorld

Quoted

Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
I get the shorthand, but not the underlying utility of the resulting ships.

If I'm understanding the shorthand correctly (which I'm not confident of), I agree with you... just a glorified pre-dreadnought.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
I get the shorthand, but not the underlying utility of the resulting ships.

If I'm understanding the shorthand correctly (which I'm not confident of), I agree with you... just a glorified pre-dreadnought.

Agreed

At 30 knots, it is a speedboat compared to the pre-dreadnoughts. Still slower than normal cruisers.

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10
At 30 knots, it is a speedboat compared to the pre-dreadnoughts. Still slower than normal cruisers.

Hence "just a glorified pre-dreadnought" instead of "just a pre-dreadnought".

Quoted

I'm having a bit of a difficult time understanding your shorthand

These are the only infos from Peru communicated to the Chilean Intelligence Service...

But this thread isn't put together for the Chilean intelligence services, it's made for the other players, who may be more interested and able to provide feedback if only we could decipher the content...

I use shorthands since the studies of Panzershifs, summer 1980.

B180-50 => Belt: Main180, Ends: 50
D50=> Deck: 50
T => Turret (ex: 2T3x280)
T254-120 => Face: 254, Other: 120
BBte => Barbette
B => Blockhaus (Conning Tower)
BKH40 => Bulkheads: 40
TT => Torpedoes Tube

That's not too difficult to understand.
So, I continu to use them, they are useful when the time is limited to post & for rapid SS idea.


Jef

I got most of the shorthand but thanks for clarifying what BKH is. However, if you've already simmed these in SS you might as well post the report, it makes it easier for everyone to compare with existing WW ships in detail.

Why doesn't he post the report?
a) He does not want to give away too much details and secrets of the awesomeness of the design.
b) The design has not been fine-tuned yet.
c) The design is a rough outline in his mind and not simmed yet.
d) He does not want to show how crappy the design truly is.
e) He deleted the file.
f) The duck in his oven is on fire.
g) None of the above.

Rooijen is wright
In this case, b) is right

I could add:
h) He gives wrong informations to the (potential)enemy.

Quoted

Originally posted by Jefgte
Rooijen is wright
In this case, b) is right

I could add:
h) He gives wrong informations to the (potentia)enemy.

All kidding aside, one of the reasons for posting a full-blown Springsharp would be to permit peer review for error checking and useful feedback. Your shorthand makes that difficult for some of us.

PBB1946, Peru PBB1946 laid down 1946

Displacement:
13 900 t light; 14 573 t standard; 15 295 t normal; 15 873 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
640.07 ft / 623.36 ft x 75.46 ft x 21.89 ft (normal load)
195.09 m / 190.00 m x 23.00 m x 6.67 m

Armament:
4 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1 308.20lbs / 593.39kg shells, 1946 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 7.99" / 203 mm guns (2x2 guns), 255.24lbs / 115.78kg shells, 1946 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
4 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (2x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1946 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1946 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1946 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6 424 lbs / 2 914 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
8 - 21.8" / 553 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.30" / 160 mm 442.91 ft / 135.00 m 7.87 ft / 2.40 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 98.43 ft / 30.00 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
82.02 ft / 25.00 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.57" / 40 mm 442.91 ft / 135.00 m 19.03 ft / 5.80 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 9.06" / 230 mm
2nd: 5.98" / 152 mm 4.02" / 102 mm 5.98" / 152 mm
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 74 270 shp / 55 406 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 5 000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1 300 tons

Complement:
686 - 893

Cost:
£10.074 million / $40.296 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 803 tons, 5.2 %
Armour: 4 099 tons, 26.8 %
- Belts: 964 tons, 6.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 491 tons, 3.2 %
- Armament: 1 061 tons, 6.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1 451 tons, 9.5 %
- Conning Tower: 133 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1 855 tons, 12.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7 053 tons, 46.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 395 tons, 9.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 90 tons, 0.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21 794 lbs / 9 886 Kg = 16.7 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 3.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.520
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.26 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.89 ft / 8.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
- Stern: 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
- Average freeboard: 19.50 ft / 5.95 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.1 %
Waterplane Area: 33 211 Square feet or 3 085 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 150 lbs/sq ft or 733 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.36
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

I find several anachronisms in the design that seem to compromise it.

1 - Fitting the 203mm turrets amidships takes up space that would be better suited for a powerful dual purpose secondary battery. Better than some the Peruvian Navy has experience in defending against land and carrier-based aircraft.

2 - Spotting for main armament will be compromised by the secondary 203mm battery.

3 - The range of this vessel is extremely short; at high speeds its radius of action will be severely handicapped.

4 - She is not a particularly steady gun platform, with a stability barely above average.

5 - Her ability to outrun anything that can kill her is limited; her firepower to kill a smaller yet faster opponent is limited. Her ability to survive an air attack is limited.

6 - For 1905, such a design would be leading edge; for 1945, not so much.

4T2x203 are in reserve.
They could be used on a classic Washington cruiser, a kind of Kent class.

Ilo, Peru 8" Cruiser laid down 1946

Displacement:
9 700 t light; 10 147 t standard; 11 521 t normal; 12 620 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
622.36 ft / 610.24 ft x 66.27 ft x 20.35 ft (normal load)
189.70 m / 186.00 m x 20.20 m x 6.20 m

Armament:
8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1946 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (6 mounts), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1946 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1946 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1946 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2 498 lbs / 1 133 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 21.0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 387.14 ft / 118.00 m 9.42 ft / 2.87 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.98" / 152 mm 4.02" / 102 mm 5.98" / 152 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 4.72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 79 162 shp / 59 055 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 12 000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2 473 tons

Complement:
555 - 722

Cost:
£6.230 million / $24.921 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 312 tons, 2.7 %
Armour: 2 474 tons, 21.5 %
- Belts: 724 tons, 6.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 687 tons, 6.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1 011 tons, 8.8 %
- Conning Tower: 52 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1 977 tons, 17.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4 836 tons, 42.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 822 tons, 15.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18 555 lbs / 8 416 Kg = 72.5 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 14.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.490
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.21 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.41 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.23 ft / 8.30 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.31 ft / 6.80 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.03 ft / 5.80 m
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 19.03 ft / 5.80 m
- Stern: 19.03 ft / 5.80 m
- Average freeboard: 20.57 ft / 6.27 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 163.2 %
Waterplane Area: 27 763 Square feet or 2 579 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 128 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 564 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.38
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Looks good to me. Only thing I note is that the 8" guns are remarked on as a 1946 model, which if they're reused shouldn't be the case (IIRC 1931 model).

Also, the 120mm guns are in six mountings? Seems a bit odd - wouldn't it be better in four twins?

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Also, the 120mm guns are in six mountings? Seems a bit odd - wouldn't it be better in four twins?

Also, shouldn't they be DP, and wouldn't they be better suited in mount and hoist?

Quoted

8 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (6 mounts), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1946 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships

Made to work with all 32kts Peruvian cruisers & specialy with Almirante Villar & Almirante Grau,
2 pocket Battle Cruisers are in the Plan.

PBC, Peru PBC laid down 1946

Displacement:
13 700 t light; 14 423 t standard; 16 105 t normal; 17 451 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
655.88 ft / 639.76 ft x 70.87 ft x 23.68 ft (normal load)
199.91 m / 195.00 m x 21.60 m x 7.22 m

Armament:
6 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (2x3 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.68kg shells, 1946 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (6x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1946 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1946 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1946 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5 859 lbs / 2 658 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
16 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 1.42" / 36 mm 131.23 ft / 40.00 m 7.87 ft / 2.40 m
114.83 ft / 35.00 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.06" / 230 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.18" / 30 mm -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 2.76" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 7.87" / 200 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 97 333 shp / 72 610 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 12 000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3 027 tons

Complement:
714 - 929

Cost:
£10.176 million / $40.703 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 732 tons, 4.5 %
Armour: 3 618 tons, 22.5 %
- Belts: 1 025 tons, 6.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 845 tons, 5.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1 640 tons, 10.2 %
- Conning Tower: 108 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2 431 tons, 15.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6 838 tons, 42.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 405 tons, 14.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
22 288 lbs / 10 110 Kg = 25.7 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.525
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.03 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.01 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 20.34 ft / 6.20 m
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 20.34 ft / 6.20 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 21.46 ft / 6.54 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.6 %
Waterplane Area: 32 163 Square feet or 2 988 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 140 lbs/sq ft or 685 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.55
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
--
I think that these ships are perfect for modest Peru economy.
Powerfull & fast.
Not too expensive (13700t limitation)
Coherent with the existing Armada.

I suspect that you might want to have the secondary mounts on the side rather than the centerline, otherwise I think things will be rather crowded.

Also, I think you might want to have the secondary battery as mount-and-hoist rather than plain deck mount.

I'm skeptical that you can fit 12" triple turrets on that beam. It's a tiny bit narrower than that of the Deutschland-class, yet the guns are bigger, the belt armour is doubled, the turret armour is doubled, and the ship is four knots faster (and thus requires more voluminous machinery).

If you are looking for something similar to Villar and Grau, why not do a pair half-sisters? If slipways are an issue, Italy should have a appropriate way open in 1946 (aka, my 1946 plan is not yet fixed and I could make it work)