Hi guys

I just dragged out Springsharb 3b3 and messed around with an old favourite of mine, Kreuzer P. This time with 12 gunsm to be able to fight 2 engagements at the same time:

Freiherr von Stein, Germany Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1938

Displacement:

31,587 t light; 33,839 t standard; 41,119 t normal; 46,942 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)

(953.75 ft / 918.64 ft) x 104.99 ft x (26.41 / 56.99 ft)

(290.70 m / 280.00 m) x 32.00 m x (8.05 / 17.37 m)

Armament:

12 - 11.14" / 283 mm 52.0 cal guns - 881.85lbs / 400.00kg shells, 150 per gun

Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model

4 x 3-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread

2 raised mounts

20 - 5.24" / 133 mm 60.0 cal guns - 78.63lbs / 35.66kg shells, 300 per gun

Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model

8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread

4 raised mounts

2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread

2 double raised mounts

36 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm 67.0 cal guns - 23.16lbs / 10.50kg shells, 500 per gun

Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model

18 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread

10 raised mounts

56 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 75.0 cal guns - 1.75lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1,000 per gun

Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model

14 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread

8 raised mounts

Weight of broadside 13,086 lbs / 5,936 kg

Main Torpedoes

10 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m torpedoes - 1.730 t each, 17.300 t total

In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Armour:

- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)

Main: 6.30" / 160 mm 597.11 ft / 182.00 m 12.14 ft / 3.70 m

Ends: Unarmoured

Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

Main Belt inclined -5.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:

1.18" / 30 mm 597.11 ft / 182.00 m 19.69 ft / 6.00 m

Beam between torpedo bulkheads 78.74 ft / 24.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 6.30" / 160 mm 3.15" / 80 mm 6.30" / 160 mm

2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm

3rd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 1.18" / 30 mm

- Box over machinery & magazines:

3.15" / 80 mm

Machinery:

Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, plus diesel motors,

Electric motors, 4 shafts, 201,929 shp / 150,639 Kw = 34.00 kts

Range 15,000nm at 19.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 13,103 tons

Complement:

1,443 - 1,876

Cost:

£17.916 million / $71.664 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 3,236 tons, 7.9 %

- Guns: 3,201 tons, 7.8 %

- Weapons: 35 tons, 0.1 %

Armour: 6,363 tons, 15.5 %

- Belts: 1,915 tons, 4.7 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 514 tons, 1.2 %

- Armament: 1,874 tons, 4.6 %

- Armour Deck: 2,060 tons, 5.0 %

Machinery: 5,529 tons, 13.4 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,060 tons, 39.1 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 9,532 tons, 23.2 %

Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.0 %

- Hull below water: 100 tons

- Hull above water: 50 tons

- Above deck: 250 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

70,882 lbs / 32,152 Kg = 102.5 x 11.1 " / 283 mm shells or 6.5 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14

Metacentric height 6.9 ft / 2.1 m

Roll period: 16.8 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.28

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck,

a straight bulbous bow and large transom stern

Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.565 / 0.299

Length to Beam Ratio: 8.75 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 34.70 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m

Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):

Fore end, Aft end

- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 36.09 ft / 11.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m

- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 27.89 ft / 8.50 m

- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 27.89 ft / 8.50 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m

- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 31.17 ft / 9.50 m

- Average freeboard: 29.64 ft / 9.04 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.7 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 266.5 %

Waterplane Area: 71,090 Square feet or 6,604 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 136 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 185 lbs/sq ft or 901 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.98

- Longitudinal: 1.18

- Overall: 1.00

Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space

Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Warning: Date too early for rapid fire gun - 3rd Battery

4 He 115

I am also messing around with the idea of giving her 4 He 115 instead of 2 Ar 196 - more range and sea coverage.

I just dragged out Springsharb 3b3 and messed around with an old favourite of mine, Kreuzer P. This time with 12 gunsm to be able to fight 2 engagements at the same time:

Freiherr von Stein, Germany Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1938

Displacement:

31,587 t light; 33,839 t standard; 41,119 t normal; 46,942 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)

(953.75 ft / 918.64 ft) x 104.99 ft x (26.41 / 56.99 ft)

(290.70 m / 280.00 m) x 32.00 m x (8.05 / 17.37 m)

Armament:

12 - 11.14" / 283 mm 52.0 cal guns - 881.85lbs / 400.00kg shells, 150 per gun

Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model

4 x 3-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread

2 raised mounts

20 - 5.24" / 133 mm 60.0 cal guns - 78.63lbs / 35.66kg shells, 300 per gun

Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model

8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread

4 raised mounts

2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread

2 double raised mounts

36 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm 67.0 cal guns - 23.16lbs / 10.50kg shells, 500 per gun

Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model

18 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread

10 raised mounts

56 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 75.0 cal guns - 1.75lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1,000 per gun

Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model

14 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread

8 raised mounts

Weight of broadside 13,086 lbs / 5,936 kg

Main Torpedoes

10 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m torpedoes - 1.730 t each, 17.300 t total

In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Armour:

- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)

Main: 6.30" / 160 mm 597.11 ft / 182.00 m 12.14 ft / 3.70 m

Ends: Unarmoured

Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

Main Belt inclined -5.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:

1.18" / 30 mm 597.11 ft / 182.00 m 19.69 ft / 6.00 m

Beam between torpedo bulkheads 78.74 ft / 24.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 6.30" / 160 mm 3.15" / 80 mm 6.30" / 160 mm

2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm

3rd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 1.18" / 30 mm

- Box over machinery & magazines:

3.15" / 80 mm

Machinery:

Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, plus diesel motors,

Electric motors, 4 shafts, 201,929 shp / 150,639 Kw = 34.00 kts

Range 15,000nm at 19.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 13,103 tons

Complement:

1,443 - 1,876

Cost:

£17.916 million / $71.664 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 3,236 tons, 7.9 %

- Guns: 3,201 tons, 7.8 %

- Weapons: 35 tons, 0.1 %

Armour: 6,363 tons, 15.5 %

- Belts: 1,915 tons, 4.7 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 514 tons, 1.2 %

- Armament: 1,874 tons, 4.6 %

- Armour Deck: 2,060 tons, 5.0 %

Machinery: 5,529 tons, 13.4 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,060 tons, 39.1 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 9,532 tons, 23.2 %

Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.0 %

- Hull below water: 100 tons

- Hull above water: 50 tons

- Above deck: 250 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

70,882 lbs / 32,152 Kg = 102.5 x 11.1 " / 283 mm shells or 6.5 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14

Metacentric height 6.9 ft / 2.1 m

Roll period: 16.8 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.28

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck,

a straight bulbous bow and large transom stern

Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.565 / 0.299

Length to Beam Ratio: 8.75 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 34.70 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m

Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):

Fore end, Aft end

- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 36.09 ft / 11.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m

- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 27.89 ft / 8.50 m

- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 27.89 ft / 8.50 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m

- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 31.17 ft / 9.50 m

- Average freeboard: 29.64 ft / 9.04 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.7 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 266.5 %

Waterplane Area: 71,090 Square feet or 6,604 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 136 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 185 lbs/sq ft or 901 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.98

- Longitudinal: 1.18

- Overall: 1.00

Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space

Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Warning: Date too early for rapid fire gun - 3rd Battery

4 He 115

I am also messing around with the idea of giving her 4 He 115 instead of 2 Ar 196 - more range and sea coverage.

A very interesting comparison to the Italian Regina Elena

You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye

Who cheer when soldier lads march by,

Sneak home and pray you'll never know

The hell where youth and laughter go.

-Siegfried Sassoon

Who cheer when soldier lads march by,

Sneak home and pray you'll never know

The hell where youth and laughter go.

-Siegfried Sassoon

Agreed, protection is on the light side.

Two questions:

1) Are the 5.25-inch guns artifacts of an earlier design? That's not a KM caliber and I can't see their usefulness.

2) That's a _lot_ of 88mm FLAK. I'm not sure if there's enough deck space for all those, especially if you have the 5.25-inch as well.

Personally I'd dump the 5.25-inch battery and use the weight savings for more armor...

Two questions:

1) Are the 5.25-inch guns artifacts of an earlier design? That's not a KM caliber and I can't see their usefulness.

2) That's a _lot_ of 88mm FLAK. I'm not sure if there's enough deck space for all those, especially if you have the 5.25-inch as well.

Personally I'd dump the 5.25-inch battery and use the weight savings for more armor...

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "eltf177" (Oct 8th 2013, 11:58am)

Armour, I see that point. But this is meant to be a cruiser, which will simply outrun BBs. And as WWII proved, damage control beats armour every day of the week.

Kreuzer PP, Germany Large Cruiser laid down 1938

Displacement:

30,037 t light; 32,077 t standard; 39,122 t normal; 44,759 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)

(937.34 ft / 902.23 ft) x 101.71 ft x (26.41 / 29.33 ft)

(285.70 m / 275.00 m) x 31.00 m x (8.05 / 8.94 m)

Armament:

12 - 11.14" / 283 mm 52.0 cal guns - 738.46lbs / 334.96kg shells, 150 per gun

Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model

4 x 3-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread

2 raised mounts

20 - 5.04" / 128 mm 60.0 cal guns - 70.09lbs / 31.79kg shells, 300 per gun

Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model

8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread

4 raised mounts

2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread

2 double raised mounts

36 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm 67.0 cal guns - 23.17lbs / 10.51kg shells, 500 per gun

Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model

18 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread

6 raised mounts

56 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 75.0 cal guns - 1.74lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1,000 per gun

Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model

14 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread

8 raised mounts

Weight of broadside 11,195 lbs / 5,078 kg

Main Torpedoes

10 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m torpedoes - 1.742 t each, 17.420 t total

In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Armour:

- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)

Main: 6.30" / 160 mm 580.71 ft / 177.00 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m

Ends: Unarmoured

Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length

Main Belt inclined -5.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:

1.18" / 30 mm 462.60 ft / 141.00 m 19.69 ft / 6.00 m

Beam between torpedo bulkheads 78.74 ft / 24.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 6.30" / 160 mm 3.15" / 80 mm 6.30" / 160 mm

2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm

3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.79" / 20 mm

- Box over machinery & magazines:

3.54" / 90 mm

Machinery:

Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, plus diesel motors,

Electric motors, 4 shafts, 196,402 shp / 146,516 Kw = 34.00 kts

Range 15,000nm at 19.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 12,681 tons

Complement:

1,390 - 1,808

Cost:

£17.371 million / $69.483 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 3,112 tons, 8.0 %

- Guns: 3,077 tons, 7.9 %

- Weapons: 35 tons, 0.1 %

Armour: 6,250 tons, 16.0 %

- Belts: 1,762 tons, 4.5 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 398 tons, 1.0 %

- Armament: 1,843 tons, 4.7 %

- Armour Deck: 2,247 tons, 5.7 %

Machinery: 5,378 tons, 13.7 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,997 tons, 38.3 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 9,086 tons, 23.2 %

Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 0.8 %

- Hull below water: 100 tons

- Hull above water: 150 tons

- Above deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

65,530 lbs / 29,724 Kg = 94.8 x 11.1 " / 283 mm shells or 5.7 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13

Metacentric height 6.4 ft / 2.0 m

Roll period: 16.9 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.29

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck,

a straight bulbous bow and large transom stern

Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.565 / 0.582

Length to Beam Ratio: 8.87 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 34.35 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m

Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):

Fore end, Aft end

- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 36.09 ft / 11.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m

- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 27.89 ft / 8.50 m

- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 27.89 ft / 8.50 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m

- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 31.17 ft / 9.50 m

- Average freeboard: 29.64 ft / 9.04 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.9 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 263.0 %

Waterplane Area: 67,639 Square feet or 6,284 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 133 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 178 lbs/sq ft or 868 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.98

- Longitudinal: 1.19

- Overall: 1.00

Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space

Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

The main battery might handle two opponents, but not three - so a River Plate scenario is still a viable outcome.

Putting the 12.8cm secondaries in turrets with barbettes is wasteful. A mount and hoist would suffice. Combined with the extensive number of 8.8cm guns, there are far too many guns crammed on her deck.

Speed is costly - and it is not an element I strive for. Here you have pushed for very high speeds and considerable cruising radius - and it shows in the overall tonnage necessary to carry the concept off.

Overall, I see it as wasteful of resources for a very limited return.

-The extra speed of 34 vs say 32 is very expensive for limited benefit.

- Turret on barbette for the 128mm secondaries is wasteful.

- There might be a NEDS issue.

- The main better is very thin and has an average height.

- Main Armament is very light for a 30 kton light and 45 kton max vessel.

It is certainly possible to carry more armament if you cut back on some wastefulness, case in point the BBL Scheme 8 I did that was 22 kton light with 4x5 280mm guns. That was extreme, but I think you would get a much better rounded design if you reduced the range or cruise speed, shaved a bit of beam, converted the secondaries to a hoist&mount instead of turret&barbette, and increased armor.

My idea for He 115 has the same reasoning. When people saw an Ar196 they knew one of the Panzerschiffe wasn't far (BTW those had 70mm armour!). Seeing a He 115 doesn't pinpoint the carrying ship nearly as well. I'll have a look at mount & hoist, but that won't net me a lot I think.

As for turrets - I'll play with triples, but I envision installations in fornt of Anton and aft of Dora on the side to get the space. Also don't forget the 290m LoA.

IMO this is a much saner ship for the mission (sea denial) than the H-Class for instance.

## Quoted

BTW those had 70mm armour!

Well the Panzerschiffe were significantly smaller than the design you posted. With the big guns, that meant slower speed and less armor.

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