WesWorld

Hi guys

I just dragged out Springsharb 3b3 and messed around with an old favourite of mine, Kreuzer P. This time with 12 gunsm to be able to fight 2 engagements at the same time:

Freiherr von Stein, Germany Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1938

Displacement:
31,587 t light; 33,839 t standard; 41,119 t normal; 46,942 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(953.75 ft / 918.64 ft) x 104.99 ft x (26.41 / 56.99 ft)
(290.70 m / 280.00 m) x 32.00 m x (8.05 / 17.37 m)

Armament:
12 - 11.14" / 283 mm 52.0 cal guns - 881.85lbs / 400.00kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model
4 x 3-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
20 - 5.24" / 133 mm 60.0 cal guns - 78.63lbs / 35.66kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
36 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm 67.0 cal guns - 23.16lbs / 10.50kg shells, 500 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model
18 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
10 raised mounts
56 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 75.0 cal guns - 1.75lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model
14 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 13,086 lbs / 5,936 kg
Main Torpedoes
10 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m torpedoes - 1.730 t each, 17.300 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.30" / 160 mm 597.11 ft / 182.00 m 12.14 ft / 3.70 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -5.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1.18" / 30 mm 597.11 ft / 182.00 m 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 78.74 ft / 24.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.30" / 160 mm 3.15" / 80 mm 6.30" / 160 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 1.18" / 30 mm

- Box over machinery & magazines:
3.15" / 80 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, plus diesel motors,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 201,929 shp / 150,639 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 19.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 13,103 tons

Complement:
1,443 - 1,876

Cost:
£17.916 million / $71.664 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,236 tons, 7.9 %
- Guns: 3,201 tons, 7.8 %
- Weapons: 35 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 6,363 tons, 15.5 %
- Belts: 1,915 tons, 4.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 514 tons, 1.2 %
- Armament: 1,874 tons, 4.6 %
- Armour Deck: 2,060 tons, 5.0 %
Machinery: 5,529 tons, 13.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,060 tons, 39.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 9,532 tons, 23.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.0 %
- Hull below water: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 50 tons
- Above deck: 250 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
70,882 lbs / 32,152 Kg = 102.5 x 11.1 " / 283 mm shells or 6.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 6.9 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.28

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a straight bulbous bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.565 / 0.299
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.75 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 34.70 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 36.09 ft / 11.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 27.89 ft / 8.50 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 27.89 ft / 8.50 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 31.17 ft / 9.50 m
- Average freeboard: 29.64 ft / 9.04 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 266.5 %
Waterplane Area: 71,090 Square feet or 6,604 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 136 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 185 lbs/sq ft or 901 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.18
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Warning: Date too early for rapid fire gun - 3rd Battery

4 He 115

I am also messing around with the idea of giving her 4 He 115 instead of 2 Ar 196 - more range and sea coverage.

Welcome Back!

:-) and thanks for moving the design - I had missed this one.

Quoted

Originally posted by LordArpad
:-) and thanks for moving the design - I had missed this one.

You're welcome.

Interesting design, by the by. Much too little protection for my taste, but interesting nonetheless.

A very interesting comparison to the Italian Regina Elena

Agreed, protection is on the light side.

Two questions:

1) Are the 5.25-inch guns artifacts of an earlier design? That's not a KM caliber and I can't see their usefulness.
2) That's a _lot_ of 88mm FLAK. I'm not sure if there's enough deck space for all those, especially if you have the 5.25-inch as well.

Personally I'd dump the 5.25-inch battery and use the weight savings for more armor...

sorry, should have been 128mm - I was working from memory. And yes, they are secondary arty, so they do serve a purpose. let me rectify a few things this evening. As for space - don't forget how long that critter is

Armour, I see that point. But this is meant to be a cruiser, which will simply outrun BBs. And as WWII proved, damage control beats armour every day of the week.

Fair enough, looking forward to the redesign...

lots of little things cleaned up:

Kreuzer PP, Germany Large Cruiser laid down 1938

Displacement:
30,037 t light; 32,077 t standard; 39,122 t normal; 44,759 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(937.34 ft / 902.23 ft) x 101.71 ft x (26.41 / 29.33 ft)
(285.70 m / 275.00 m) x 31.00 m x (8.05 / 8.94 m)

Armament:
12 - 11.14" / 283 mm 52.0 cal guns - 738.46lbs / 334.96kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model
4 x 3-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
20 - 5.04" / 128 mm 60.0 cal guns - 70.09lbs / 31.79kg shells, 300 per gun
Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
36 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm 67.0 cal guns - 23.17lbs / 10.51kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model
18 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
56 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 75.0 cal guns - 1.74lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model
14 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 11,195 lbs / 5,078 kg
Main Torpedoes
10 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m torpedoes - 1.742 t each, 17.420 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.30" / 160 mm 580.71 ft / 177.00 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -5.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1.18" / 30 mm 462.60 ft / 141.00 m 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 78.74 ft / 24.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.30" / 160 mm 3.15" / 80 mm 6.30" / 160 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.79" / 20 mm

- Box over machinery & magazines:
3.54" / 90 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, plus diesel motors,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 196,402 shp / 146,516 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 19.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 12,681 tons

Complement:
1,390 - 1,808

Cost:
£17.371 million / $69.483 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,112 tons, 8.0 %
- Guns: 3,077 tons, 7.9 %
- Weapons: 35 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 6,250 tons, 16.0 %
- Belts: 1,762 tons, 4.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 398 tons, 1.0 %
- Armament: 1,843 tons, 4.7 %
- Armour Deck: 2,247 tons, 5.7 %
Machinery: 5,378 tons, 13.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,997 tons, 38.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 9,086 tons, 23.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 0.8 %
- Hull below water: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 150 tons
- Above deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
65,530 lbs / 29,724 Kg = 94.8 x 11.1 " / 283 mm shells or 5.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 6.4 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 16.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.29

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a straight bulbous bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.565 / 0.582
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.87 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 34.35 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 36.09 ft / 11.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 27.89 ft / 8.50 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 27.89 ft / 8.50 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 31.17 ft / 9.50 m
- Average freeboard: 29.64 ft / 9.04 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 263.0 %
Waterplane Area: 67,639 Square feet or 6,284 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 133 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 178 lbs/sq ft or 868 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.19
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

All things considered, I find this a rather expensive and limited design.

The main battery might handle two opponents, but not three - so a River Plate scenario is still a viable outcome.

Putting the 12.8cm secondaries in turrets with barbettes is wasteful. A mount and hoist would suffice. Combined with the extensive number of 8.8cm guns, there are far too many guns crammed on her deck.

Speed is costly - and it is not an element I strive for. Here you have pushed for very high speeds and considerable cruising radius - and it shows in the overall tonnage necessary to carry the concept off.

Overall, I see it as wasteful of resources for a very limited return.

- Main belt height is average.
- Torpedo bulkhead height is below average.
- Any specific reason for using 19 knots for cruising speed? Seems like an odd number.

Personally I prefer the 11" version of the Ogura. Same speed, better armor.

- It has a very large range at a very high cruise speed.
-The extra speed of 34 vs say 32 is very expensive for limited benefit.
- Turret on barbette for the 128mm secondaries is wasteful.
- There might be a NEDS issue.
- The main better is very thin and has an average height.
- Main Armament is very light for a 30 kton light and 45 kton max vessel.

It is certainly possible to carry more armament if you cut back on some wastefulness, case in point the BBL Scheme 8 I did that was 22 kton light with 4x5 280mm guns. That was extreme, but I think you would get a much better rounded design if you reduced the range or cruise speed, shaved a bit of beam, converted the secondaries to a hoist&mount instead of turret&barbette, and increased armor.

the speed and range are directly from the Kreuzer P project. This is Germany without any bases - this means being able to steam all over the ocean and not having to refuel. This also means being able to disengage in a hurry if too strong opposition shows up.

My idea for He 115 has the same reasoning. When people saw an Ar196 they knew one of the Panzerschiffe wasn't far (BTW those had 70mm armour!). Seeing a He 115 doesn't pinpoint the carrying ship nearly as well. I'll have a look at mount & hoist, but that won't net me a lot I think.

As for turrets - I'll play with triples, but I envision installations in fornt of Anton and aft of Dora on the side to get the space. Also don't forget the 290m LoA.

IMO this is a much saner ship for the mission (sea denial) than the H-Class for instance.

Forgot this. Any reason why you used the "on centreline, evenly spread" option for the main guns? I would expect the guns to be at the ends like normal ships so it should be "on centreline ends, evenly spread".

Quoted

BTW those had 70mm armour!

Well the Panzerschiffe were significantly smaller than the design you posted. With the big guns, that meant slower speed and less armor.

but the mission remains - destroy cruisers if need be - run from BBs and BCs. And of course disturb trade. Leve the big convoys to the subs.

Oh and ss3b3 doesn't have centreline ends evenly distributed

Yes it has. Second weapons option: "Centerline - ends (fore >= aft)". Same as all other Springsharp programs.