WesWorld

Before I made this info official in the ency, I wanted to post it for review.

Infantry Division
-3 Infantry Regiments
-1 Artillery Regiment
Men: 16000
Rifles: 12000
Machine Guns: 520
Mortars: 30
Artillery: 45
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 440
Wheeled Armor: 12
Tracked Armor: 0
Anti-Aircraft: 40
Anti-Tank: 74

Alpine Division
-3 Alpine Infantry Regiments
-1 Alpine Artillery Regiment
Men: 17500
Rifles: 13125
Machine Guns: 348
Mortars: 186
Artillery: 42
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 386
Wheeled Armor: 0
Tracked Armor: 0
Anti-Aircraft: 10
Anti-Tank: 74

Arditi Division
-3 Arditi Infantry Regiments
Men: 14500
Rifles: 10875
Machine Guns: 631
Mortars: 60
Artillery: 54
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 695
Wheeled Armor: 108
Tracked Armor: 36
Anti-Aircraft: 40
Anti-Tank: 74

Celeri Division
-3 Celeri Infantry Regiments
-1 Celeri Artillery Regiment
-1 Armored Regiment
Men: 19000
Rifles: 14250
Machine Guns: 528
Mortars: 180
Artillery: 72
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 1500
Wheeled Armor: 360
Tracked Armor: 144
Anti-Aircraft: 40
Anti-Tank: 38

Armored Division
-1 Celeri Infantry Regiment
-1 Celeri Artillery Regiment
-2 Armored Regiments
Men: 13250
Rifles: 9938
Machine Guns: 534
Mortars: 68
Artillery: 68
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 820
Wheeled Armor: 120
Tracked Armor: 228
Anti-Aircraft: 40
Anti-Tank: 38

Infantry Regiment
-3 Infantry Brigades
Men: 5000
Rifles: 3750
Machine Guns: 170
Mortars: 6
Artillery: 3
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 130
Wheeled Armor: 4
Tracked Armor: 0
Anti-Aircraft: 12
Anti-Tank: 24

Alpine Regiment
-3 Alpine Brigades
Men: 5500
Rifles: 4125
Machine Guns: 112
Mortars: 54
Artillery: 6
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 112
Wheeled Armor: 0
Tracked Armor: 0
Anti-Aircraft: 2
Anti-Tank: 24

Arditi Regiment
-3 Arditi Brigades
Men: 4500
Rifles: 3375
Machine Guns: 207
Mortars: 16
Artillery: 6
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 215
Wheeled Armor: 36
Tracked Armor: 12
Anti-Aircraft: 12
Anti-Tank: 24

Celeri Regiment
-3 Celeri Brigades
Men: 4750
Rifles: 3563
Machine Guns: 124
Mortars: 56
Artillery: 8
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 400
Wheeled Armor: 108
Tracked Armor: 12
Anti-Aircraft: 12
Anti-Tank: 12

Armored Regiment
-3 Armored Brigades
Men: 13250
Rifles: 9938
Machine Guns: 534
Mortars: 68
Artillery: 68
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 820
Wheeled Armor: 120
Tracked Armor: 228
Anti-Aircraft: 40
Anti-Tank: 38

Artillery Regiment
-3 Artillery Brigades
Men: 1000
Rifles: 750
Machine Guns: 10
Mortars: 12
Artillery: 36
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 50
Wheeled Armor: 0
Tracked Armor: 0
Anti-Aircraft: 4
Anti-Tank: 2

I think you confused Brigade and Batallion. Batallion<Regiment<Brigade<Division

Otherwise it looks reasonable to me.

Quoted

Originally posted by snip
The Esercito Italiano features six types of Battalions, Infantry, Alpine, Arditi, Celeri, Armored, and Artillery. Battalions are the smallest unit that can be assigned to independent operations, and as such are the smallest units detailed here.

Infantry Battalion
Men: 1167
Rifles: 1250
Machine Guns: 57
Mortars: 2
Artillery: 1
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 43
Wheeled Armor: 1
Tracked Armor: 0
Anti-Aircraft: 4
Anti-Tank: 8

Methinks this needs quite a bit of work, still.

Why does the battalion have a single artillery piece? What kind is it? Same for the AA and AT assets.

Why does the battalion inexplicably have a single "wheeled armour" vehicle?

Why are there more rifles assigned than there are men to hold them?

In general, it just seems to have a lot of elements which distract from the main purpose of an infantry battalion, and seriously bloat the strength and require excessive resources.

Why does the battalion have a single artillery piece? What kind is it? Same for the AA and AT assets. : Support for assaults on small prepared positions and smoke barages, have not gotten to types yet for any, tho the AT will be taken over by the not-bazoka posted here and referenced here in late 1944. This will help with increasing the mobility of the AT assets as well as there abilities against armor as the current AT gun is an old 47mm gun.

Why does the battalion inexplicably have a single "wheeled armour" vehicle?: Command car derived from the Velites called the Tubicen. As it is still wheeled and has both armor and armament (not the 75mm gun but something else), it falls under this catagorie.

Why are there more rifles assigned than there are men to hold them?: Transcription error, should be 1667 men as opposed to 1167. Corrected.

So after some discussion last night (thanks again Brock and Bruce) Im reworking things a bit here, and explaining the process I used a bit more in depth.

For working on this, I decided to use the regiment as my unit of fixed size with everything else being derived from that. I HAGed the regimental equipment from historical division, and tweaked the numbers to make things more even and dividable by 3 when required for organizational reason.

Battalions have there manpower and light equipment allocated by (.85*REG/3) with the additional men and equipment being allocated to dedicated support or command assets are the regimental level. Some assets, such as artillery pieces, are divided as REG/3. These are the bits of equipment I felt we better used in fixed formations as opposed to mixed between battalions and the regimental level.

Divisions are layed out as follows, but I will only use the infantry division as an example here. Each division is comprised of three infantry regiments, one artillery regiment, and supporting staff and assets equivalent to 15% of the combined regimental manpower.

That being said, here is the new proposed makeup of an Italian Infantry division. I have the others finished as well, but would like feedback on this one first since the rest are derived from it.

Infantry Division
-3 Infantry Regiments
-1 Artillery Regiment
-Additional assets in the following numbers*
--Men: 1500
--Rifles: 1125
--Machine Guns: 78
--Mortars: 11
--Artillery: 8
--Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 66
--Wheeled Armor: 3
--Tracked Armor: 0
--Anti-Aircraft: 6
--Anti-Tank: 9

Infantry Regiment
-3 Infantry Battalions
-Additional assets in the following numbers*
--Men: 450
--Rifles: 150
--Machine Guns: 26
--Mortars: 0
--Artillery: 0
--Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 20
--Wheeled Armor: 1
--Tracked Armor: 0
--Anti-Aircraft: 0
--Anti-Tank: 0

Infantry Battalion
Men: 850
Rifles: 750
Machine Guns: 48
Mortars: 8
Artillery: 2
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 37
Wheeled Armor: 2
Tracked Armor: 0
Anti-Aircraft: 4
Anti-Tank: 6

Artillery Regiment
-3 Artillery Battalions
-Additional assets in the following numbers*
--Men: 150
--Rifles: 50
--Machine Guns: 2
--Mortars: 0
--Artillery: 0
--Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 8
--Wheeled Armor: 0
--Tracked Armor: 0
--Anti-Aircraft: 0
--Anti-Tank: 0

Artillery Battalion
Men: 283
Rifles: 250
Machine Guns: 3
Mortars: 0
Artillery: 12
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 14
Wheeled Armor: 1
Tracked Armor: 0
Anti-Aircraft: 1
Anti-Tank: 1

Note, *ed assets have not yet been broken up, but would contain things such as heavier artillery guns (149mm), Command and Control Staff, and additional logistics units. Comments?

Neglected to comment last night. But this looks much better, closer to what is historical, and overall a pretty decent bit of work.

Some alterations after talking to Bruce. Mostly just additional numbers in the "Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment" category across the board. Also a modification to the number of men in Artillery units and the number of MGs in Infantry units.

Infantry Division
-3 Infantry Regiments
-1 Artillery Regiment
-Additional assets in the following numbers*
--Men: 1575
--Rifles: 1181
--Machine Guns: 56
--Mortars: 11
--Artillery: 8
--Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 218
--Wheeled Armor: 3
--Tracked Armor: 0
--Anti-Aircraft: 6
--Anti-Tank: 9

Infantry Regiment
-3 Infantry Battalions
-Additional assets in the following numbers*
--Men: 450
--Rifles: 150
--Machine Guns: 18
--Mortars: 0
--Artillery: 0
--Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 60
--Wheeled Armor: 1
--Tracked Armor: 0
--Anti-Aircraft: 0
--Anti-Tank: 0

Infantry Battalion
Men: 850
Rifles: 750
Machine Guns: 34
Mortars: 8
Artillery: 2
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 113
Wheeled Armor: 2
Tracked Armor: 0
Anti-Aircraft: 4
Anti-Tank: 6

Artillery Regiment
-3 Artillery Battalions
-Additional assets in the following numbers*
--Men: 225
--Rifles: 75
--Machine Guns: 2
--Mortars: 0
--Artillery: 0
--Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 38
--Wheeled Armor: 0
--Tracked Armor: 0
--Anti-Aircraft: 0
--Anti-Tank: 0

Artillery Battalion
Men: 425
Rifles: 375
Machine Guns: 3
Mortars: 0
Artillery: 12
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 71
Wheeled Armor: 1
Tracked Armor: 0
Anti-Aircraft: 1
Anti-Tank: 1

Note, *ed assets have not yet been broken up, but would contain things such as heavier artillery guns (149mm), Command and Control Staff, and additional logistics units.

Alpine Infantry formations. Note the lower number of "Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment" in relatoin to the manpower. These units are not expected to be deployed in areas with good access for these assets, and as such they use a higher number of animals for logistical requirements. I have not yet detailed these numbers.

Alpine Infantry Division
-3 Infantry Regiments
-1 Artillery Regiment*
-Additional assets in the following numbers**
--Men: 1800
--Rifles: 1350
--Machine Guns: 52
--Mortars: 11
--Artillery: 8
--Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 128
--Wheeled Armor: 0
--Tracked Armor: 0
--Anti-Aircraft: 6
--Anti-Tank: 9***

Alpine Infantry Regiment
-3 Infantry Battalions
-Additional assets in the following numbers**
--Men: 525
--Rifles: 175
--Machine Guns: 17
--Mortars: 0
--Artillery: 0
--Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 30
--Wheeled Armor: 0
--Tracked Armor: 0
--Anti-Aircraft: 0
--Anti-Tank: 0

Alpine Infantry Battalion
Men: 992
Rifles: 875
Machine Guns: 32
Mortars: 8
Artillery: 2
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 57
Wheeled Armor: 2
Tracked Armor: 0
Anti-Aircraft: 4
Anti-Tank: 6***

*: These artillery regiments are formed in the same manor as the standard, but use different guns.
**: Assets have not yet been broken up, but would contain things such as heavier artillery guns, Command and Control Staff, and additional logistics units.
***: The current 47mm AT gun can also be used at a infantry gun, hence its inclusion in Alpine units

Arditi Infantry formations. Note the higher number of MGs and the inclusion of native tracked armor. These are for assault duties and urban combat.

Arditi Infantry Division
-3 Ardit Infantry Regiments
-1 Artillery Regiment
-Additional assets in the following numbers*
--Men: 1575
--Rifles: 1181
--Machine Guns: 114
--Mortars: 11
--Artillery: 8
--Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 285
--Wheeled Armor: 33
--Tracked Armor: 5
--Anti-Aircraft: 6
--Anti-Tank: 9

Arditi Infantry Regiment
-3 Ardit Infantry Battalions
-Additional assets in the following numbers*
--Men: 450
--Rifles: 150
--Machine Guns: 38
--Mortars: 0
--Artillery: 0
--Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 83
--Wheeled Armor: 11
--Tracked Armor: 2
--Anti-Aircraft: 0
--Anti-Tank: 0

Arditi Infantry Battalion
Men: 850
Rifles: 750
Machine Guns: 71
Mortars: 8
Artillery: 2
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 156
Wheeled Armor: 20
Tracked Armor: 3
Anti-Aircraft: 4
Anti-Tank: 6

*: Assets have not yet been broken up, but would contain things such as heavier artillery guns, Command and Control Staff, and additional logistics units.

Celeri Infantry formations. These are the mechanized infantry. These divisions also include an attached Armored Regiment, which lends to there increased size.

Celeri Infantry Division
-3 Celeri Infantry Regiments
-1 Artillery Regiment*
-1 Armored Regiment
-Additional assets in the following numbers**
--Men: 1800
--Rifles: 1350
--Machine Guns: 57
--Mortars: 25
--Artillery: 9
--Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 398
--Wheeled Armor: 108
--Tracked Armor: 5
--Anti-Aircraft: 6
--Anti-Tank: 9

Celeri Infantry Regiment
-3 Celeri Infantry Battalions
-Additional assets in the following numbers**
--Men: 525
--Rifles: 175
--Machine Guns: 19
--Mortars: 0
--Artillery: 0
--Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 120
--Wheeled Armor: 36
--Tracked Armor: 2
--Anti-Aircraft: 0
--Anti-Tank: 0

Celeri Infantry Battalion
Men: 992
Rifles: 875
Machine Guns: 35
Mortars: 19
Artillery: 3
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 227
Wheeled Armor: 68
Tracked Armor: 3
Anti-Aircraft: 4
Anti-Tank: 6

Armored Regiment
-3 Armored Battalions
-Additional assets in the following numbers**
--Men: 563
--Rifles: 188
--Machine Guns: 30
--Mortars: 0
--Artillery: 0
--Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 60
--Wheeled Armor: 5
--Tracked Armor: 16
--Anti-Aircraft: 0
--Anti-Tank: 0

Armored Battalion
Men: 1063
Rifles: 938
Machine Guns: 57
Mortars: 0
Artillery: 4
Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 113
Wheeled Armor: 10
Tracked Armor: 31
Anti-Aircraft: 4
Anti-Tank: 6

*: These artillery regiments are formed in the same manor as the standard, but use self-propelled gun carriages.
**: Assets have not yet been broken up, but would contain things such as heavier artillery guns, Command and Control Staff, and additional logistics units.

Armored Divisions. Primary tank arm.

Armored Division
-1 Celeri Infantry Regiment
-1 Artillery Regiment*
-2 Armored Regiments
-Additional assets in the following numbers**
--Men: 1800
--Rifles: 1350
--Machine Guns: 57
--Mortars: 25
--Artillery: 9
--Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 398
--Wheeled Armor: 108
--Tracked Armor: 5
--Anti-Aircraft: 6
--Anti-Tank: 9

*: These artillery regiments are formed in the same manor as the standard, but use self-propelled gun carriages.
**: Assets have not yet been broken up, but would contain things such as heavier artillery guns, Command and Control Staff, and additional logistics units.

Don't see anything wrong with those; all looks approximately correct.

Out of curiosity, why the difference between the the Celeri Division and the Armoured Division? It looks like the Celeri have ~109 tanks, while the Armoured Division has ~223. Is there a reason the Italian Army is using both? Just curious.

The difference to me is this. The Celeri are expected to function as infantry that can rapidly exploit fluid battlefield conditions, hence why they are mechanized to the extent that they are. This requires them to have native armor as they will need to react to changes faster then a standard Infantry division. They are also expected to be able to hold the land that they take, like a standard infantry division. The Armored divisions on the other hand are meant to be pure spearheads, not tied down with traditional infantry duties at any time. If we are looking at a non-mobile front, the Armored divisions would be what force a breakthrough (due to the large concentration of armor) that the Celeri would exploit (due to high mechanization) wile the standard infantry held more defensive positions and dealt with more drawn out battles.

Okay, gotcha.

And now to the specialists. RA created a Parachute Assault Regiment, I have flushed it out below, but dont think I quite did it right. Im thinking its a reinforced regiment. Note I have not included aircraft yet.

9th Parachute Assault Regiment
--Men: 4500
--Rifles: 3375
--Machine Guns: 208
--Mortars: 16
--Artillery: 6
--Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 215
--Wheeled Armor: 0
--Tracked Armor: 0
--Anti-Aircraft: 6
--Anti-Tank: 24

How bad have I borked this?

The Italians are also noted as having the following units as specialists. Baring anything from RA saying these were not created, I would like to flesh them out. No details yet.

Army units
4th Alpini Parachutist Regiment: Specialists in high altitude operations and airborne operations in alpine geography.
185th Reconnaissance Target Acquisition Regiment: Contains four smaller groups specializing in different environments. Tasked with discovering and marking ultra-high priority targets.
26th Special Air Operations Unit: Specialists in the support, supply, and infiltrate/exfiltrate SF and SOF units in enemy territory.

Navy Units
Decima Flottiglia MAS (10th Assault Vehicle Flotilla): Historical Frogmen

Air Defense Force units
Arditi Distruttori Aeronautica Militare: Specialists in raids on aeronautical compounds, forward air control, combat controlling, and combat search and rescue.

Quoted

Originally posted by snip
And now to the specialists. RA created a Parachute Assault Regiment, I have flushed it out below, but dont think I quite did it right. Im thinking its a reinforced regiment. Note I have not included aircraft yet.

9th Parachute Assault Regiment
--Men: 4500
--Rifles: 3375
--Machine Guns: 208
--Mortars: 16
--Artillery: 6
--Trucks and Other Utility Mechanized equipment: 215
--Wheeled Armor: 0
--Tracked Armor: 0
--Anti-Aircraft: 6
--Anti-Tank: 24

How bad have I borked this?

In practice, paratroops tend to be smaller in terms of manpower than comparable units of the same designation. For instance, France's Regiment de Chasseurs Parachutistes is 2,300 to 2,400 men in comparison to a standard Infantry Regiment's 3,100 men. At least in most historical forces, the slimming often happened all through the organization: smaller squads, smaller platoons, smaller support troops at the company and battalion level, and less in the way of artillery or logistics at the regimental level.

For the WW Armee de Terre, this is accomplished by reducing the size of the support troops within the company, and also reducing the supporting forces at the battalion. Artillery, AA and AT assets are not controlled by the RCP, but by assorted units added on at the brigade level. The idea is to keep the RCP as pure 'light infantry': while they are very easy to deploy and easy to supply, they have less staying power in extended combat than a regular infantry force.

I would suggest that you remove all of the trucks from the ORBAT and simply pair the regiment with an external supply group. These assets are non-airmobile and thus would be basically abandoned in the case of a mission. Similarly, consider what you want to do with the artillery. It's very difficult to air-drop, particularly if you lack the dedicated aircraft.

Also give consideration to how many aircraft this formation takes to move. If your aircraft can carry 30 men and their personal gear, it will require 150 planes to transport this regiment, not counting all their associated gear.

Quoted

Originally posted by snip
The Italians are also noted as having the following units as specialists. Baring anything from RA saying these were not created, I would like to flesh them out. No details yet.

Army units
4th Alpini Parachutist Regiment: Specialists in high altitude operations and airborne operations in alpine geography.
185th Reconnaissance Target Acquisition Regiment: Contains four smaller groups specializing in different environments. Tasked with discovering and marking ultra-high priority targets.
26th Special Air Operations Unit: Specialists in the support, supply, and infiltrate/exfiltrate SF and SOF units in enemy territory.

Navy Units
Decima Flottiglia MAS (10th Assault Vehicle Flotilla): Historical Frogmen

Air Defense Force units
Arditi Distruttori Aeronautica Militare: Specialists in raids on aeronautical compounds, forward air control, combat controlling, and combat search and rescue.

I don't have a problem with La Decima.

The rest I'm going have to look into a bit more. They sound rather more modern. I've no objections, but I do want to do the research before giving any off-the-cuff comments.

Yes, the units are the modern ones but I tried to ensure that the unit was at least around during the 1940s, the scope of there tasks worked with period tech and, that the equipment they would need fit the current level. For example; the 26th might be using some helos, but mostly STOL planes.

Quoted

Originally posted by snip
The Italians are also noted as having the following units as specialists. Baring anything from RA saying these were not created, I would like to flesh them out. No details yet.

Army units
4th Alpini Parachutist Regiment: Specialists in high altitude operations and airborne operations in alpine geography.
185th Reconnaissance Target Acquisition Regiment: Contains four smaller groups specializing in different environments. Tasked with discovering and marking ultra-high priority targets.
26th Special Air Operations Unit: Specialists in the support, supply, and infiltrate/exfiltrate SF and SOF units in enemy territory.

Navy Units
Decima Flottiglia MAS (10th Assault Vehicle Flotilla): Historical Frogmen

Air Defense Force units
Arditi Distruttori Aeronautica Militare: Specialists in raids on aeronautical compounds, forward air control, combat controlling, and combat search and rescue.

Okay, just making some quick commentary after a bit of research. (Note bene: I'm tired and bound soon for bed, so my comments will be brief, and may not say everything I'm thinking.)

Regarding the 4th Alpini Parachutist Regiment: I note that this unit, while it existed as a mountain regiment in the 1940s, only became "Alpini Paracadusti" in 2004. However, I note that between the 1950s and 1960s, each of the Italian Alpini brigades created an Alpini Paracadusti platoon (for a total of five platoons, or a reinforced company). It didn't achieve battalion strength (as the Monte Cervino Battalion) until 1996. I can accept something along the 1950s arrangement - each Alpini division training a platoon which can form into a reinforced company. But a battalion or a regiment is quite a bit more of a stretch, in my opinion. I could be swayed with good justification, but we've never seen Italian paratroops or special forces in action - so I would really need to be sold on it. Just my two cents, but you might make this something you're in the process of building (say, over the next 6-8 years), through steady training.

I had a look at the 185th, and I'm not entirely convinced. I just don't see that the technology is present in the 1940s or 1950s to get the level of fine control necessary for the 185th to achieve their mission as advertised. At best, you'd have a radio, a grid map, and perhaps some smoke grenades or reflective panels - but that's the sort of training that most officers in a 1940s European army should be receiving. I don't think you need an entire regiment for that, either. As with the Alpini Paracadusti, I could swallow a platoon or three, but that's about it.

Regarding the 26th: I was not able to find enough information on the historical unit to settle my mind. Could you provide some further information about what you intend your unit's mission and composition to be? I know that in WWII the RAF often employed aircrews trained to help pick up agents behind the lines - as did the Germans - but that was to the best of my knowledge a more informal affair.

Regarding ADAM - Mm, I found something showing the unit did exist in WWII, but I don't have the time to translate tonight from Italian. I figure something company-sized might be workable for airfield raids. The FAC, combat control, and aircrew rescue missions just seem too 1970s to me, though; see my comments on the 185th for my thoughts on FAC.

Hope that helps.